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I recently purchased a lot of 9 old ammo pouches. The age of the pouches very from WW2 to the 1960s. One of the pouches appears to be a K98 ammo pouch.
The pouch is in near mint condition, which is not common with old military pouches.
I have included some photos. I would greatly appreciate an information about the authenticity of this pouch.
 

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It is German 98k and original. Nice condition.
Looks to me like an original unissued late WWII German ammo pouch. It is not a K98k pouch but a generic German WWII pouch, used with numerous different types of rifles.
 

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Looks to me like an original unissued late WWII German ammo pouch. It is not a K98k pouch but a generic German WWII pouch, used with numerous different types of rifles.

Most people still refer to them as a K98 ammo pouch, not the least because more soldiers were issued K98 rifles than the semi auto guns your referring to in conjunction with their use.
 

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Most people still refer to them as a K98 ammo pouch, not the least because more soldiers were issued K98 rifles than the semi auto guns your referring to in conjunction with their use.
No, the semi-autos had their own pouches, although the standard ammo pouches were probably used with some. The standard WWII ammo pouch has a model designation, M1916 Mounted Ammunition Case, which held 30 rounds. It became standard after 1933, replacing the M1909 Infantry Ammunition Case which held 60 rounds.

The rifles I was referring to were the G98M, G33/40, G29/40, G98/40, M12/34, Standard Modell, K98a, K98b, G24(t), VZ23, VZ24, Wz29, K98, FN1930, M24, and various Dutch, French, and other rifles.

The K98 is the Polish version of the K98a. The K98k is not a "K98".

And the so-called "K98" bayonet is actually the Sg84/98 generic bayonet with the collector designation Sg84/98III for the third (WWII) pattern.

Let's be specific. Accuracy counts when you get deeper into collecting.
 

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No, the semi-autos had their own pouches, although the standard ammo pouches were probably used with some. The standard WWII ammo pouch has a model designation, M1916 Mounted Ammunition Case, which held 30 rounds. It became standard after 1933, replacing the M1909 Infantry Ammunition Case which held 60 rounds.

The rifles I was referring to were the G98M, G33/40, G29/40, G98/40, M12/34, Standard Modell, K98a, K98b, G24(t), VZ23, VZ24, Wz29, K98, FN1930, M24, and various Dutch, French, and other rifles.

The K98 is the Polish version of the K98a. The K98k is not a "K98".

And the so-called "K98" bayonet is actually the Sg84/98 generic bayonet with the collector designation Sg84/98III for the third (WWII) pattern.

Let's be specific. Accuracy counts when you get deeper into collecting.
Well if we are gonna be specific they are the Model 1911, Mounted Troops pouch. Later adopted as the standard model pouch.
 

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No again, the M1911 was a thinner leather and was replaced by the M1916 with thicker leather. As I said above, "The standard WWII ammo pouch has a model designation, M1916 Mounted Ammunition Case, which held 30 rounds. It became standard after 1933, replacing the M1909 Infantry Ammunition Case which held 60 rounds." It also replaced the M1911 mounted pouch but that was earlier.
 

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Well if we are gonna be specific they are the Model 1911, Mounted Troops pouch. Later adopted as the standard model pouch.
You are right.
I've never ever heard or read about a pattern 1916 pouch either. The pattern 1911 (mounted troops pouch or small ammo pouch) pouch saw several modifications during WWI. Same as the pattern 1909 ammo pouch.
The change from thinner to thicker leather did not change official designation.
In October 1918 it was intended to use the pattern 1911 pouch for all branches with exception of infantry and rifle men. Then renamed into "kleine Patronentasche" => small ammo pouch.
In January 1924 the ammo pouch pattern 1911 (or small ammo pouch) was introduced as standard ammo pouch for all branches of the German Army, with the pattern 1909 pouch (large ammo pouch) still in use.
Ammo pouches made during the Weimar period are very hard to find.
In January 1945 the pouch again was simplified to save leather.
In WWII soldiers with semi auto rifles had one pouch for the mags and one standard pouch with ammo on stripper clips.
Thanks

PS: according to the area code, this pouch was produced in Frankfurt/Main.
 

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It looks to me like the M1911 pouch was replaced by the M1916 pouch but, as sometimes happens, the soldaten continued to refer to the M1916 pouch as the M1911.

This was all I could find when I searched for model designations:

These box-like cases were worn around the belt, usually two per soldier. A fitting at the top of the pouch hooked into the suspender straps, allowing them to attach to the pouches rather than the belt.The M1909 Infantry ammunition case had 3 conjoined pouches which could carry four 5-round clips per pouch, making 60 rounds per case (12 x 5-round clips). Each pouch had a divider in the middle and metal clips to secure the ammunition clips point down in the pouches.
The thinner M1911 Mounted ammunition case also had 3 pouches but could carry only two 5-round clips per pouch, making 30 rounds per case (6 x 5-round clips). The M1916 Mounted ammunition case was an improved version made of thicker leather. This later became the standard issue ammo case after 1933.
Pre-World War One cases were originally made of pebbled brown leather with polished brass fittings. These features were replaced on a continuum from 1915 onwards, ending with smooth black leather cases with blackened steel fittings. Late war models used ersatz materials like vulcanized fibre in the place of the leather.

http://ww2-facts.wikia.com/wiki/German_Ammunition_Pouches

The primary point remains unchanged, that the WWII German standard ammo pouch was used with many bolt action rifles other than the K98k and was a generic ammo pouch rather than a K98k specific ammo pouch.
 

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That's interesting Bill, but I have never heard of the M1916 designation. Loosening standards on leather weight (thickness) on both the 1909 and 1911 model pouches was done mid-war. The use of thicker leather had two benefits: (1) durability in use and (2) less work required to finish hides. After splitting to rough thickness a hide is usually shaved to get the thickness desired, a precise, time consuming process. When using the relatively rough shaved hide you can consider that the double benefits mentioned above are realized. Anyway, since the link you posted designates the thicker pattern Mounted pouches as M1916, was the M1909 Pouch given a new model designation as well? It remained in front line service well after WW1, so why wouldn't they have given it a new designation as well?
 

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I have to agree with TP on this one. I have never seen a reference to a German M1916 pouch. Both Johan Somers and Robert Fisch (Field Equipment of the Infantry 1914-1945) only refer to a Model 1909 for infantry and a M1911 for mounted troops. All my other German references also refer to the WW2 era pouch infantry pouch as M1911 and the WW1 as M1909.
 

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That's interesting Bill, but I have never heard of the M1916 designation. Loosening standards on leather weight (thickness) on both the 1909 and 1911 model pouches was done mid-war. The use of thicker leather had two benefits: (1) durability in use and (2) less work required to finish hides. After splitting to rough thickness a hide is usually shaved to get the thickness desired, a precise, time consuming process. When using the relatively rough shaved hide you can consider that the double benefits mentioned above are realized. Anyway, since the link you posted designates the thicker pattern Mounted pouches as M1916, was the M1909 Pouch given a new model designation as well? It remained in front line service well after WW1, so why wouldn't they have given it a new designation as well?
I know nothing about the M1909 leather thickness being increased (maybe it was). All I know about model designations is in the article I quoted above. It says the M1911 was thinner than the M1909 to start with. That would make sense since the M1909 carried twice as much weight. There would be no need to make the M1909 thicker. The change from M1911 to M1916 would have made the M1916 thickness about the same as the M1909. But how correct is the article? It does not say who wrote it.

There would be no need to give the M1909 a new designation if it was not changed.

The M1909 Infantry ammunition case had 3 conjoined pouches which could carry four 5-round clips per pouch, making 60 rounds per case (12 x 5-round clips). Each pouch had a divider in the middle and metal clips to secure the ammunition clips point down in the pouches.
The thinner M1911 Mounted ammunition case also had 3 pouches but could carry only two 5-round clips per pouch, making 30 rounds per case (6 x 5-round clips). The M1916 Mounted ammunition case was an improved version made of thicker leather. This later became the standard issue ammo case after 1933.

The point of my posting was to show that the standard German WWII ammo pouch was a generic pouch, not a K98k pouch.
 

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I know nothing about the M1909 leather thickness being increased (maybe it was). All I know about model designations is in the article I quoted above. It says the M1911 was thinner than the M1909 to start with. That would make sense since the M1909 carried twice as much weight. There would be no need to make the M1909 thicker. The change from M1911 to M1916 would have made the M1916 thickness about the same as the M1909. But how correct is the article? It does not say who wrote it.

There would be no need to give the M1909 a new designation if it was not changed.

The M1909 Infantry ammunition case had 3 conjoined pouches which could carry four 5-round clips per pouch, making 60 rounds per case (12 x 5-round clips). Each pouch had a divider in the middle and metal clips to secure the ammunition clips point down in the pouches.
The thinner M1911 Mounted ammunition case also had 3 pouches but could carry only two 5-round clips per pouch, making 30 rounds per case (6 x 5-round clips). The M1916 Mounted ammunition case was an improved version made of thicker leather. This later became the standard issue ammo case after 1933.

The point of my posting was to show that the standard German WWII ammo pouch was a generic pouch, not a K98k pouch.
After you're post about accurate terminology you post a fictional model designation. You then link a Wikia article that has no sources. You do know anyone can register there and change things(which is exactly what needs to happen)? Please link another source for this model 1916 pouch for accuracy's sake.
 

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I went into my cave this morning, took some photos and compared some of my German pattern 1911 pouches.

The M1911 pouches I compared were made in 1916, 1928, 1932 and 1939. I could not determine a significant change of leather thickness.

Attached photos show M1909 pouches.
1) 1914 with 2mm leather (as per regulation)
2) 1916 with two layers of leather making a total of 3.8mm (as per regulation)
This change in production of the M1909 pouch was issued in October 1916. Designation of the pouch has not changed)
The M1911 pouch was not affected by this change.

Thanks
 

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So far we have seen:

1. ww2-facts.wikia says, with unsubstantiated authority, that the M1911 with increased thickness was designated M1916. It does not mention the thickness of the M1909 being increased. I suspect it may just be that the M1911 was changed to thicker leather in 1916. If someone designated the thicker pouch M1916, it has not yet been verified.

2. Ian517 says in two posts "I've never ever heard or read about a pattern 1916 pouch either. The pattern 1911 (mounted troops pouch or small ammo pouch) pouch saw several modifications during WWI. Same as the pattern 1909 ammo pouch. The change from thinner to thicker leather did not change official designation." and "The M1911 pouches I compared were made in 1916, 1928, 1932 and 1939. I could not determine a significant change of leather thickness." Note that he did not have a M1911 manufactured before 1916 to compare. He does show photos of both a single ply and a double ply M1909.

3. fireman says in two posts "Well if we are gonna be specific they are the Model 1911, Mounted Troops pouch. Later adopted as the standard model pouch." and "I have never seen a reference to a German M1916 pouch. Both Johan Somers and Robert Fisch (Field Equipment of the Infantry 1914-1945) only refer to a Model 1909 for infantry and a M1911 for mounted troops. All my other German references also refer to the WW2 era pouch infantry pouch as M1911 and the WW1 as M1909."

4. TP says "
I have never heard of the M1916 designation. Loosening standards on leather weight (thickness) on both the 1909 and 1911 model pouches was done mid-war." and "Anyway, since the link you posted designates the thicker pattern Mounted pouches as M1916, was the M1909 Pouch given a new model designation as well?" All the pertinent information from the link I posted was copied in full in post#10. No new designation for the M1909 was given there.

5. Milsurp 2.0 says "
Please link another source for this model 1916 pouch for accuracy's sake." after I already said in post #10 "This was all I could find when I searched for model designations".

From the above discussion I would conclude that the standard German WWII ammo pouch is most accurately called M1911 (according to the latest information known); it is a generic ammo pouch and not specific for the K98k rifle.

Thanks to all for clearing up the (currently known) correct designation for the
standard German WWII ammo pouch.
 

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No, the semi-autos had their own pouches, although the standard ammo pouches were probably used with some. The standard WWII ammo pouch has a model designation, M1916 Mounted Ammunition Case, which held 30 rounds. It became standard after 1933, replacing the M1909 Infantry Ammunition Case which held 60 rounds.

The rifles I was referring to were the G98M, G33/40, G29/40, G98/40, M12/34, Standard Modell, K98a, K98b, G24(t), VZ23, VZ24, Wz29, K98, FN1930, M24, and various Dutch, French, and other rifles.

The K98 is the Polish version of the K98a. The K98k is not a "K98".

And the so-called "K98" bayonet is actually the Sg84/98 generic bayonet with the collector designation Sg84/98III for the third (WWII) pattern.

Let's be specific. Accuracy counts when you get deeper into collecting.



Let's be specific is right.

The redesigned 3 pocket ammo pouch, or K98 pouch as I prefer to call it was not being used for the other rifles you mention until after those countries were over run and their arms being pressed into German service.

It's original intention was for German production rifles, be they GEW98 reworks, or 98k rifles.
 
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