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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,
What do you think of a Mauser 98b with S28 markings on some parts, same number on every numbered parts including wood, no number on bolt, blank receiver, and... SS markings under the barrel (it could be "SS-TV" for "Totenkopfverbände", althought the "V" has been altered by the
deactivation - before I could buy it
).

If genuine, what could be the value of this specimen - even if deactivated (yes, a shame what they sometimes do in France!!)

Here are some pictures. Do not hesitate to ask for more pictures! ("AN Z" is the frech deactivation stamp)

Thank you very much in advance for all your thoughts and comments about this particular rifle which seems to be a very interesting one! And for the SS markings, under the barrel :
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
SS markings are bogus IMO
Thank you for this significant contribution :thumbsup:

Even if a lot of them - especially on firearms - are fakes, it is known that a certain number of SS units (including the Totenkopfverbände) put specific markings on their equipment and especially during their early years in the 30's. I am far from a specialist in that field and I discovered this one by accident when disassembling my 98b one more time to check other markings which could indicate a genuine "S 28" 98b - I didn't notice it before!

The question is: are these particular one fakes (good one then!) or not, and why? Or did you see them on a firearm before?
 

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Thank you for this significant contribution :thumbsup:

Even if a lot of them - especially on firearms - are fakes, it is known that a certain number of SS units (including the Totenkopfverbände) put specific markings on their equipment and especially during their early years in the 30's. I am far from a specialist in that field and I discovered this one by accident when disassembling my 98b one more time to check other markings which could indicate a genuine "S 28" 98b - I didn't notice it before!

The question is: are these particular one fakes (good one then!) or not, and why? Or did you see them on a firearm before?
Thank you for the smartass response, I will no longer share opinions/knowledge with you :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you for the smartass response, I will no longer share opinions/knowledge with you :thumbsup:
Sorry if I offensed you, that wasn't my goal!
I just wanted to say that it isn't very constructive to say only "it is a fake" or "it is genuine" or "all SS markings are bogus" without giving any detailed reason. I am here to learn things, that's all!
 

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SS markings are so often faked that it would be like winning the mega millions lottery to get a actual legit SS marked early k98. Obviously I'm exaggerating a little. I've been collecting k98ks for a while now. My level of fascination and obsession probably contributed to my fiancé and I splitting. I have been mentored by experts for years, many whom grace these boards and another well noted k98k forum. My point is... When I see SS marked or "death head" marked k98ks, I just run from it. In my experience, at least in my area, for every 5 "SS marked" k98ks, all of them are fake. Some may ask why this is? Well, it's simple. People fake them for increased profit, a "better story" and even the evil SS factor which many seem to think is cool and will pay more. Fake stamping dies have been around for the longest time, probably over 30 years easy and "humpers" have been putting them to use. Since I ignore SS marked rifles, I don't know about yours, but bigdibbs88 knows his stuff and given the odds associated with these rifles.... I'm feel he is spot on.
 

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Thank you for this significant contribution :thumbsup:

Even if a lot of them - especially on firearms - are fakes, it is known that a certain number of SS units (including the Totenkopfverbände) put specific markings on their equipment and especially during their early years in the 30's. I am far from a specialist in that field and I discovered this one by accident when disassembling my 98b one more time to check other markings which could indicate a genuine "S 28" 98b - I didn't notice it before!

The question is: are these particular one fakes (good one then!) or not, and why? Or did you see them on a firearm before?
If they marked their equipment, so it could be identified as their property, why would you mark it in a place that can't be seen. Remember in WWll enlisted men were not allowed to disassemble their rifles beyond removing and stripping the bolt. This was all that was needed for normal cleaning, and more extensive maintenance or repair was to be performed by a unit armorer.
 

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The issue is not if it is real or not the issue is it can't be proved absolutely.
That is why a lot of collectors just ignore them or pass the over.
I'm sure some where marked but with all the humped rifles with fake stamps you can't be sure 100% that the stamp is real so a hard core collector will pass them by.
 

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Well --- I would guess that either the runes are "Pfake" or they have some other significance (as indicated by the fact that they are buried on the bottom of the rifle) rather than SS property marks.
All of the legit SS marked rifles (of which I have 2) have common features and this rifle shows none of them.
Sarge
 

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I haven't even taken my recent import beater single rune bnz 43 apart to see what is under the woodline, my first ss contract rifle which apparently has the original hardwood stock at least, and sometimes I wonder why I bought it because I don't idolize ss items for profit or admiration of exploits, just a historical point of view for learning(my k98 and some books I have, that is it), paid over $500 to have a representative example in the house, and it has waffenampts hacked off and a heavily corroded good rated bore with so much fouling I am trying to work loose, that is counterbored that needs the counterbore recrowned to maybe make it an effective shooter with a worn/not exactly new bore cause the shots were shotgunning at close range, though I have discovered so much carbon in the grooves I can't see how the shots would have stabilized anyway. Good thing I harvested a great bolt off it I needed for a different rifle cause the bolt was czech bent for sniper rifle, or something made up for the romanian contract sniper rifles, I mean, romania had alot of them and that is where my rifle and those recent k98s with hacked waffens came from, they have all the romanian features like their style of counterboring on some, original stocks left on, set screws, etc. At least mine has the original hardwood, just no bolt assembly, and I need to recrown the recessed muzzle.

This ss stuff is risky, I may never ever buy anything purported to be ss unless I get it fresh off the boat from a trusted dealer like I did with my beater, and my beater I suspect I will be lucky if I can get it to group 3-6 inch groups at 200 yards or even 100 yards, not worrying about longer range of course. There are alot of shyster gun dealers who call simple waffenampts as "ss" markings with a huge markup I have seen over the years, likely due to total ignorance and stupidity, I mean, I had one local that I believe he just thought I was stupid cause every german firearm had waffenampts which made them ss guns all of a sudden, no matter what I told him to the contrary, ive even seen it on auction items from sellers with lots of sales, usually small town hicks who are functionally illiterate so they can't read anything to learn.

I bought three of those k98's with issues the other day from Allens armory, bout a couple hundred apiece, shooters or good source of shooter parts, I have alot of experience accurizing worn bores or counterbored bores with wear in the recessed muzzle by recrowing down there, probably one of them will end up as a good source of a spare bolt and parts unless all of them turn out to have at least combat grade accuracy at 100 meters(three inch groups), or I am gonna have to get me another bolt assembly for the rune rile, most likely, anything just for show, or somewhere in this home or my storage area in the outbuilding cans I have a k98 rc bolt assembly I thought I had.

Which brings up another point, especially pertaining to deactivate rifles and rifles with worn bores, the it would be cool to be able to have a rifle bore reamed out and a barrel liner installed, all things are possible of course, I mean, if I had a machine shop, I know I would be able to.
 

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A very poor bubba fakery on top of that. Be careful out there. live and learn.





Here is a better one

=
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Thank you everybody for all your comments and thoughts about this particular rifle!
My point was not to get a "waouh, what a rare specimen you have! Congratulations!", but to learn a bit more about SS markings and to be told why it is/it is not a genuine SS marked rifle.
I understand that, for almost all of you, the markings are fake and could have even been applied after the deactivation. OK then! You are probably right. The only thing is, I bought this rifle from a professionnal dealer - but surely not an expert in WWI or WWII firearms (more specialized in 18th or 19th century's pistols) - who sold it as a "transitionnal Gewehr 98" (which I knew it wasn't because of the turned bolt) and didn't even mention the SS markings. It was a real bargain and I was happy to discover that it could be a so called "S 28" 98b - the early variation of the Mauser 98b with blank receiver and some unnumbered parts, like the bolt. Other sources told me after that that the bolt could match the rest of the rifle according to the imperial eagle stamps, and that the rifle could have been reworked in 1934/35 in Spandau (SU markings on the stock) and then maybe re-issued to the SS-Totenkopfverbände - hence the SS-TV markings around that time.
I would say we will certainly never know, and if I would sell it, I wouldn't sell it as a "SS rifle" for sure!
I appreciate all of your comments based on your knowledge - this is IMHO the purpose of a forum like this one - a way to share everyone's experience and to learn, on and on, in an humble attitude!
Once again, I didn't want to offense anybody but just wanted to gather some knowledge and tangible facts!
Thank you everybody and do not hesitate to add any other comments on this rifle!
 

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Not Only has it been "France" Deactivated, but it was also "France Recalibrated" ( from Class 1 to Class 6 0r 7) by setting back the Barrel and shortening the chamber to "Cal 8x54" ( from "7,9x57") to utilise a "Non-Military" ammunition..What exactly is the "8x54" ( maybe a 7,5 MAS cartridge "up sized" to "8mm")...in any case, a chamber cast is out of the question Now ( with that 6mm Roll Pin thru the chamber, as well as the "V" Cut.)

So for a "Fake" SS-TV Stamp to have been applied, it had to be between WW II and when it was deactivated ( What sense would it have been to do it afterwards ( given the already "non-Military" Rechambering for French Law).. and Back in the 1950s etc, there was NO " FAKERY" OF SS MARKS...That is a relatively recent occurrence, Mostly in the USA, Much less in Europe.

I would Posit that the Mark may be original....But in anycase, the rifle has no Military Collectible value at all ( Deact, and Previous Chamber set back.).

And Just This year, France has declassed "Military Calibres" ( of old) down to "Civilian Use" Certification....so all those Chamber-converted rifles are now Junk....8mm Lebels converted to 8mm-348Win, 7,9s shortened to 8x54, 7,5s rebarrelled to 7x54, 6,5s rechambered to 6,5x57, and so on....even the worst change...Kommission 88 rifles with the bolt-head changed to 8x57R!!!---Just go back through over 30 years of Gazette des Armes for details of these Legal Problems.

Regards,
Doc AV
 

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I showed a bubba'd vz24 recently that had some bogus ss marks applied on the receiveer ring, I'm looking for my large peen drift to destroy those marks, even though I am gonna turn that beater into some sort of repro sniper with newer made mounts and repro scope, an accurate rifle enough at least, a great shooter, but we had some bubbas locally, I believe I know who it was locally, trying to stamp all kinds of stuff, leather, stocks, k98's, pistols, and that guy is disabled and retired totally now, and he wasn't exactly high on the brain power scale either. What gets me are folks who double stamp things, stamp wood with brand new marks on wood that has blackend scratches but the waffenampts don't have black outlining, etc. I noticed on that rifle, that there seems to be some attempt at chemical age rusting, otherwise known as an "amateurish" job, looks to be bleach, it will spot the metal like that especially if the metal is protected by oils and waxes or other suface contaminants, I noticed near the ss mark and cut of the underside of the action. There are better ways to get an artificially ages patina, I learned this years ago when I would restore an incomplet worn patina'd rifle with an unfortunate grouping of near excellent parts, and when that happens, something has got to be done or the restoration effort is just a waste of time. And of course, there is actualy literature on the subject, like Brownells gunsmith kinks book series, a great resource.

In europe, I thought folks said years ago that there were alot more reproduced stamps floating around, more than in america, more nicely made reproduction ww2 german sniper mounts and bases like k43 mounts, etc? I mean, when you consider some things, there is a book, "Argentine Military Mausers", a great book that actually shows the stamping equipment for metal, and they weren't hand stamps, but all machine operated.
 

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In europe, I thought folks said years ago that there were alot more reproduced stamps floating around, more than in america, more nicely made reproduction ww2 german sniper mounts and bases like k43 mounts, etc? I mean, when you consider some things, there is a book, "Argentine Military Mausers", a great book that actually shows the stamping equipment for metal, and they weren't hand stamps, but all machine operated.
As I said earlier... Fake stamps have been around for over 30 years easy. There is even a rumor that a whole set of stamping dies was found by somebody by a sewer drain close to where the Mauser Oberndorf plant was and that was supposedly in the 70's or even earlier. Don't quote me on that but that's what I've been hearing for many years. Now, I have seen many fake stamps. I have seen collections where SS rune stamps have been applied to german leather products. We all know that RC's for a time were being stamped with single runes. We have seen the blueberry looking death head stamps on k98ks.... Yes, fake stamps have been around for decades and humpers have been putting then to good use in Europe, the USA and etc. When I see people question "why would someone do that".... I just laugh. There are a ton of reasons, but fakery and forgery generally is associated with increased profit margins.
 

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If the rifle has been rechambered by shortening the barrel, that would mean that the location of the marks, if authentic, has changed. The serial number on the barrel would have been on the woodline, but it isn't now. This "SS" stamp would also have moved, from around the woodline, to the bottom. Anybody follow me here?

I'm not passing judgment. Just making an observation. With the chamber cut and all that madness, the gun is toast now, regardless of markings or their authenticity.
 
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