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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here you are Dutchman, as requested, complete with the first posting ;).

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Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 10:19:42 AM
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My friend, who is known to own some pretty rare and odd Swedish Mausers, asked me to pop in, as he wanted to show me a "Swedish m/92 trial rifle".

I expected this to be the Gevär fm/92 as pictured in Dana's book, but it wasn't. In fact, it was exactly like Spanish Mauser 92, but just chambered for 6.5 mm. Closer inspection revealed that it wasn't meant for 6.5x55, but for some rimmed 6.5 cartridge. It had no other external markings that s/n (was all matching), but the owner said it had two Swedish crowns below the receiver.

We found a picture of this rifle from Olson's book, which says that a similar Mauser test rifle is in the Aberdeen museum, but nothing else is known of it.

What do you think - could this be a some kind of test rifle used by the joint Swedish/Norwegian cartridge comission in 1893?
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jonk
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
1743 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 11:32:21 AM
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Could be. I wonder, what caliber it really is? 6.5X53R perhaps? Or a rimmed version of the 6.5X55?

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Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1039 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 12:01:02 PM
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In theory, it could also be an Italian trial gun from 1890/91. But more likely one of the many civilian Mausers made for export, probably a salesman's piece... ?
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John Wall
Platinum Bullet Club
USA
2414 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 12:30:06 PM
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Hi Mala, Jonk and Alexander,
I have just acquired copies of Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf drawings dated 1892. One shows a 6.5 m/m rimmed cartridge, while the other depicts the barrel for the same rifle. Both drawings are marked as being prepared for the Portuguese Proof Commission. When they arrive, I will try and post them.

I have posted the same message on the Mauser Board.

Interestingly, the Portuguese purchased many Mannlicher Romanian-type M1892/1893 turnbolt rifles from OEWG-Steyr around this time. Perhaps the cartridge is the 6,5x53 Romanian/Dutch round? And of course, half the world was experimenting with 6 mm, 6.5 mm and 7 mm cartridges then too. The Swedish crown markings would seem pretty conclusive.

Best Regards,
John

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Edited by - John Wall on 12/29/2003 12:45:20 PM


Carcano
Moderator Italian Weapons Forum
Germany
1039 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 1:37:44 PM
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The 6,5x53R is probably the selfsame Italian "red herring" trial cartridge which Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher immediately plagiarized, once got it in his hands. The Italians were wiser; when prescribing the rimmed cartridge for the trial guns, were had already decided to use the (at that time ultra-modern) rimless variant, but did not want to give their little secret away.

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mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 1:47:22 PM
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VERY interesting!! Is it for sale? :)


I have personaly examined the 6.5mm Rimmed M1892 Experimental Mauser in the APG Museum. I have a few notes:

It is completely unmarked(as is the other 92 experimental at APG) except for ser# 137 on the bolt, bolt sleeve, butt plate, bolt stop and forward band. I assume the receiver and barrel are numbered internally, on the bottom, like my M92 Spanish carbine and the M1891 Spanish trials rifle? There are absolutely no proofs or acceptance.

It is for a rimmed cartridge, bolt face is .5153" dia. Bore dia is .256". I did not get a grove dia. It has a narrow extractor hook as discribed in Olson(on the patent drawing on p.59 in my copy)

Rear sight looks like standard M1893 Spanish(unlike the sight on the 91 Spanish which looks like the M1888 commission rifle)

The floor plate release is like my 92 carbine and as pictured in the patent drawing.(The other 92 at APG has a slightly different and so far unique FP release).

VERY interesting,

Jack

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Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 2:37:35 PM
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VERY interesting indeed, Jack!

Can you guess the ser# of my friends rifle - 136!

It is just like you described, but according to notes I made of it, its bolt face dia was more close to .5697". So most likely these two sisters are chambered for different rounds.

I also noticed that its rear site was very similar to the sliding ladder sight of 1893 Spanish (and Swedish fm/92 test rifle), but this one had range only to 1900 m, while I think those two others are up to 2000 m.
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Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 5:18:45 PM
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John, also interesting info. Looking forward for seeing those two drawings.
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Edited by - Mala on 12/29/2003 5:22:27 PM


Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 5:53:16 PM
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I wonder if the 6.5 mm experimental Mauser 92 at APG is chambered for the short lived 6.5x55 "Union" cartridge. This was proposed by the Norwegians for the joint Swedish/Norwegian cartridge trials and had a semi-rimmed construction. According to a dimensional drawing in Dana's book, its base dia was .4961". IMHO, this would sit rather nicely in a bolt face of .5153" dia.

Does anybody know what is the base dia of this Dutch/Romanian 6.5x53R round? Dana mentions that a Mauser rifle chambered for this was one of the design starting points for whole Swedish Mauser & 6.5x55 development.

Quoting once again Dana's excellent book, half of the first Swedish trial carbines (Mauser 92s based) were chambered for 8x56R and rest for various other cartridges, including the semi-rimmed 6.5x55 "Union".

Dana also mentions, that before the actual 80 test rifles (which were all Mauser 93 based) were shipped from Mauser to Sweden in August 1983, Swedes had used at least two Mauser 92 rifles for testing since April 1, 1892 (along with two M88 Commission rifles and two M89 Belgian Mausers).
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Edited by - Mala on 12/29/2003 5:54:26 PM


mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 6:06:38 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mala

VERY interesting indeed, Jack!

Can you guess the ser# of my friends rifle - 136!

It is just like you described, but according to notes I made of it, its bolt face dia was more close to .5697". So most likely these two sisters are chambered for different rounds.

I also noticed that its rear site was very similar to the sliding ladder sight of 1893 Spanish (and Swedish fm/92 test rifle), but this one had range only to 1900 m, while I think those two others are up to 2000 m.

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Yes VERY VERY interesting. :)

I'm working on notes done in haste on Nov.10, 1997(my 92 quest has been that long?)

I was using a caliber I had to add .2503" to the reading to get the total and may have misread the darn thing?

I'm not sure if the sight was 1900-2000. This was early in my learning curve....

There is another 92 Experimental in the Royal Military College of Canada Museum. Pictured in Webster's little red book. Supposed to be 7mm. I can't find the email with the ser# but I posted it to a 92 thread on the Mauser forum. It came from the Pres. Diaz?(Mexico) collection. It was 3-digit.

My 93 Spanish Carbine is indeed 7mm. Ser# 974. Not sure it's absolute status? Production, trial or experimental. It is numbered like the other 92's and 91 Trials rifles without proof/inspection. It does have "WAFFENFBK MAUSER OBERNDORF A/N" on the rail as does the 91 trials. The experimentals are unmarked.
There were 400 M1892 Experimental carbines ordered by the Spanish Navy in 7,65mm. Rubi states that when the 92 rifle was adopted Nov. 1892 in 7mm, that the unfinished navy carbines were ordered completed in 7mm.
Maybe thay became the production variant and my carbine is the result?
It does have side mounted sling rather than laynard ring.

92 Spanish carbine #974

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/mman/2003122918617_92 Mauser Carbine.JPG
Download Attachment:
29.27 KB

BTW, I finally ordered a copy of his book from Dana but he was out, so I do not have any reference on the Swedish 92's. YET. He was getting more.

Regards,

Jack
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Edited by - mman on 12/29/2003 6:23:20 PM


swede
Moderator
USA
1955 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 6:07:35 PM
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The Dutch/Rumanian 6.5 Mannlicher has a base diameter of 11.43 m/m or .4496" . Quoted from " Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridges " by Jean Huon .


mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 6:18:30 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by swede

The Dutch/Rumanian 6.5 Mannlicher has a base diameter of 11.43 m/m or .4496" . Quoted from " Military Rifle & Machine Gun Cartridges " by Jean Huon .

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That does indeed seem to suggest "base dia.", maybe NOT "rim diameter"?

I had a box of 6,5 Dutch, but I gave them to John Wall....

Jack
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swede
Moderator
USA
1955 Posts
Posted - 12/29/2003 : 8:56:36 PM
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Sorry , I was not thinking correctly . The rim diameter is 13.35 m/m or .5255" .


Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2003 : 03:54:21 AM
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Thanks guys! Now it seem quite likely that my friends Mauser 92 is indeed chambered for this Dutch/Rumanian 6.5 mm round.

But now I really wonder if this rifle is in fact one of those two experimental rifles used in first Swedish trials in 1892, as all the later test rifles were clearly Mauser 93s with flush magazines. Perhaps I'm only dreaming, but this rifle does have two Swedish crowns beneath the receiver and it came from the same place in Sweden as my friend's Swedish trial carbine (Mauser 92 in 8x56R).

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Edited by - Mala on 12/30/2003 04:24:19 AM


mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 12/30/2003 : 06:50:43 AM
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Very possible. Interesting that it has the Swedish inspection as the other experimentals do not?

I really wonder where the APG rifle came from. They were all gathered by US Intel who cared little for obsolete weapons it seems. All that is said on the card is.

"Collected by Intel team 7, Europe, 1945." or something to that effect. The same is true of most of the APG collection. :-(

I've always figured many were leftovers from Oberndorf aquired from the French...?

I also really wonder about the full story of my 92 carbine too?


Great rifle, please post some pictures.

Dana, where's my book? :)

Jack

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Edited by - mman on 12/30/2003 06:52:54 AM


Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 09:20:18 AM
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I'll take some pics of this (and that 92 trial carbine) when I go to meet him next time. Might take few weeks, though.

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mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 12/31/2003 : 4:27:23 PM
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Thanks, I'll post more pictures of the Spanish 92 carbine for comparison.

Jack


mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 03/25/2004 : 07:47:00 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Mala

I'll take some pics of this (and that 92 trial carbine) when I go to meet him next time. Might take few weeks, though.

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Mala my friend, it's been a "few weeks". Still waiting on the edge of my chair. :)

New news. Received a call from a friend who says another M1892 Mauser in 6.5mm may have surfaced in europe. If confirmed he will go take a look. Yes, he did ask me if I was sitting down before he gave me the news.

All I can say is, Wow! I do find it somewhat ironic that while the M92 is noted for having been adopted by the Spanish, so far no Spanish production variants(rifles) have been confirmed. Indeed only the unmarked experimental rifle in Canada is thought to be 7mm and it seems to have come from Mexico. Still not sure exactly what my carbine is other that the 7mm chambering would seem to be Spanish and a seemingly identical example is pictured in Rubi's book in a Spanish museum(along with a rifle)?

We may soon know more about them in absolute terms from their Swedish history rather than from Spain?

I'll keep you informed.

Regards,

Jack

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Edited by - mman on 03/25/2004 07:49:42 AM


Mala
Gunboards Moderator - Machine Gun Forum
Finland
1868 Posts
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 3:11:07 PM
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Sorry, I had completely forgotten this subject. Pics will follow, eventually...

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mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 8:28:49 PM
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Thanks,

Jack

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mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 9:19:30 PM
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Still waiting. :)

Jack

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mman
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member
2357 Posts
Posted - 07/21/2004 : 9:35:47 PM
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The wait is over. The owner of the Swede M1892 rifle and carbine recently contacted the Dutchman and sent some pictures. Here are some pictures and the Dutchman is working on captions.

http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/xm92.html

Thanks to the owner in Finland and to the Dutchman.

I'm starting a new thread, see my comments if interested.

Jack

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email at [email protected]

A Mauser for me, a Mauser for you, all I want is a M1892. Spanish that is.
REAL Mausers are made at Oberndorf

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This is the attached image from Mala (middle of this thread):
 
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