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Not good news. God help us if AQ did a similar attack in the US, which they could easily do with our inept immigration policy.

(Sorry to burst some people's bubble with some bad news here, but I see this happening eventually in the US. Clicking one's heels won't make this go away either).

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Terror attacks in Mumbai; 80 dead, over 250 injured
The Times of India ^ | 27 Nov 2008 | N/A


MUMBAI: Terror struck the country's financial capital late on Wednesday night as coordinate serial explosions and indiscriminate firing rocked eight areas across Mumbai including the crowded CST railway station, two five star hotels--Oberoi and Taj. ( Watch )

At least 80 people were dead and 250 injured in the terror attacks, hospital sources said.

Two terrorists were still inside the Oberoi Hotel and commando operation was on.

Terrorists hijacked white police jeep near Metro cinema in South Mumbai.

Firing was also reported near Maharashtra state assembly building in South Mumbai.

Armed with AK-47 rifles and grenades, a couple of terrorists entered the passenger hall of CST and opened fire and threw grenades, Mumbai General Railway Police Commissioner A K Sharma said.

The terror strike which began at 10:33 PM at Chhatrapathi Shivaji Terminus(CST), formerly known as the Victoria Terminus(VT), claimed 10 lives in the premises of the station alone, police said.

Three persons were killed in a bomb explosion in a taxi on Mazegaon dockyard road and an equal number were gunned down at Taj Hotel. The victims in the hotel were its employees.

The lobby of the Oberoi hotel was on fire and the hotel evacuated, eyewitnesses said.


(Excerpt) Read more at timesofindia.indiatimes.com ...
 

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I've heard that AQ is developing a "Suicide Couch" for employment abroad. I sure hope they don't come at us with it.
 

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I've heard that AQ is developing a "Suicide Couch" for employment abroad. I sure hope they don't come at us with it.


A LOT is two words don't you know?
 

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Hey,Mr "I Know Everything But Have Never Left My Couch" is now posting videos. Who else is known for that? Oh yes, MB. Do you have a YouTube of you sitting with the remote in your hand?
 

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One also has to take into consideration how much time and money and resoruce was put into these attacks. A few, short years ago, they were hitting all over the world on a regular basis. Now the big hits are getting scarcer and more desperate.

This is tragic but very revealingof the fact that they are losing. They hit a neighbor of their home-country. They did not hit Iraq, or any European country. They are not capable of doing the kind of damage. Now they are sending out kamakaze squads to shoot up the scenery.
 

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Just think of how this could've been stopped if CCW was allowed in India.......Gun ownership in India is a big no-no.......so they get no symathy from me....
 

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So far there is no firm evidence on who the terrorists were, and they haven't even claimed to be Al-Quaeda. The name of a Deccan freedom movement, i.e. within India itself, was mentioned, and may or may not be true.

Mr. Aznar in Spain lost his job through the mistake of blaming the Madrid railway station bombings on ETA, purely because they were the people he most wanted to blame. In fact it seems to have been done by Moroccan nationalists, protesting against the Spanish colonies there. They were said to have Al-Quaeda links, but what terrorist movement doesn't? All you have to do is exchange a few messages with people who say they are committed, and you can claim as much, or have it claimed for you.

I've stayed in the Taj hotel quite a few times, as well as using that Madrid railway station. Tt is lucky the fire didn't take hold on a much larger scale, since the old part is of early twentieth century vintage. The attack may have been mounted from Pakistani merchant vessels, but the "evidence" of Pakistani government involvement is pretty much on a "round up the usual suspects" basis. It is difficult to see such an incident doing Pakistan any good, and their denials sound convincing. The terrorists may well have come from there, which isn't the same thing, and it would suit them well enough for having the sort of merchant ship which doesn't go missing too quickly, or attract much attention. A fishing-boat was also found adrift with the captain dead.

A lot of people are blaming the Indian government, but that seems pretty shaky too. The Taj is just across the road from the Gateway of India quay, where people could climb up anywhere, and a hundred yards later they'd be there. I doubt if armed citizens could have changed anything, except maybe to make the terrorists start shooting everybody in sight.
 

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1. So far there is no firm evidence on who the terrorists were, and they haven't even claimed to be Al-Quaeda. The name of a Deccan freedom movement, i.e. within India itself, was mentioned, and may or may not be true.

2. I doubt if armed citizens could have changed anything, except maybe to make the terrorists start shooting everybody in sight.
1. Out of date - Most likely the Pakistani/Kashmiri group Lashkar-i-Taiba:


Last Gunmen Killed in India, Ending Siege
Operation Conducted by 15 Assailants Who Arrived by Sea, Officials Suspect

By Emily Wax and Rama Lakshmi
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, November 29, 2008; A01

MUMBAI, Nov. 29 -- Security forces brought a three-day assault on India's financial and cultural capital to an end Saturday morning, killing the last remaining gunmen holed up in one of the city's luxury hotels after freeing hostages and recovering bodies from two hotels and a Jewish center Friday.

Pakistani officials, responding to charges by Indian leaders that the attack was carried out by an organization with ties to Pakistan, said a senior intelligence officer would travel to India, in an apparent attempt to ease tensions between the two nuclear-armed states.

Indian officials said they now believe that at least 15 gunmen carried out the operation after reaching Mumbai by sea. After an interrogation of one of the attackers, Indian intelligence officials said they suspected that a Pakistani Islamist group, Lashkar-i-Taiba, was responsible. An Indian intelligence document from 2006 obtained by The Washington Post said members of the group had been trained in maritime assault.

Authorities said that the death toll had risen to 195 as more bodies were discovered and that 295 people were wounded, the Associated Press reported, in attacks on the hotels, the Jewish center and several other sites in Mumbai. Among the dead were two Americans from Virginia; the American rabbi who ran the city's Chabad-Lubavitch center and his Israeli wife; and three of their visitors, including an American man, an Israeli woman and a man with U.S. and Israeli citizenship. In all, 16 non-Indians have been reported killed.

Explosions from fighting at the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower hotel could be heard outside the hotel early Saturday morning, and flames and thick, inky-black smoke were seen pouring from the first floor.

Every crisis has its defining images. In Mumbai's massacre, it was the elegant Taj engulfed in flames. "It hurts my heart. It's like India itself is on fire," said Sanjay Jadhu, 43, a firefighter at the landmark hotel who was covered in soot.

Freed hostages said that many of those trapped did not come face to face with the gunmen but hid after hearing explosions and gunfire and receiving text messages and calls from loved ones telling them what was happening.

"It was such a scary ordeal when you hear grenades going off and shooting outside your hotel room," said Philip Meyer, a French businessman who wheeled his luggage out of the Oberoi hotel on Friday and rubbed his eyes, bright pink from two days without sleep, before rushing into a taxi. "My two children were calling me nonstop. I was so scared."

Sanjay Vaswani, associate director of Kroll, a private risk assessment and security firm, said he was sending a flurry of text messages to high-level business clients who were trapped inside the Oberoi. Vaswani said he had been at the site for 48 hours. "We have never seen anything as drastic as this," he said, watching as a stream of freed hostages rushed onto buses. "We tried to be in minute-to-minute touch, telling them to stay down, don't do any sudden moves."

Mumbai Police Commissioner Hassan Ghafoor said that police teams had found 41 of the dead inside the Oberoi by midnight Friday and that room-to-room searches were continuing.

Indian officials told reporters that two captured gunmen were British citizens of Pakistani origin. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and other officials said that they had not been informed that Britons had been arrested but added that investigations were continuing.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi warned India not to "be jingoist" in making accusations about the attackers' origins, and said the two countries "are facing a common enemy, and we have to join hands to defeat this enemy."

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice spoke by telephone Friday with President-elect Barack Obama for the third time since the attacks began to update him on information coming from India. Obama's staff has set up a group of transition officials at the State Department and the president-elect's Chicago headquarters to monitor the situation.

"These terrorists who targeted innocent civilians will not defeat India's great democracy, nor shake the will of a global coalition to defeat them," Obama said in a statement. "The United States must stand with India and all nations and people who are committed to destroying terrorist networks, and defeating their hate-filled ideology."

Indian intelligence officials said the gunmen who launched the coordinated attacks appeared well trained and well prepared. The assailants seemed familiar with the layouts of the two hotels and the Jewish center, giving them a tactical advantage over the police and Indian army troops sent in to dislodge them.

"This is a big-scale operation, but it is not beyond the capability of Lashkar-i-Taiba," said the intelligence officer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the nature of his work. "The person we have caught is a foot soldier; he is from Pakistan's Punjab," the officer said, referring to a region divided by the India-Pakistan border.

"He has clearly said he is with Lashkar and that he was trained," the officer said. "They came via a ship. They hijacked a boat called Kuber, shot the man in charge on the boat. They were carrying a CD with the photographs of all the targets of the site, details. It is clear that they were determined to target India's iconic locations and deter foreign investment."

The Times of India, also citing police interrogation of a captured attacker, reported Saturday that several had lived in Mumbai a few months ago, pretending to be students, and conducted reconnaissance of the Oberoi and Taj hotels.

A December 2006 letter written by a Mumbai Intelligence Bureau official and obtained by The Post says that hundreds of operatives from Lashkar-i-Taiba had received maritime training.

Members of the group "are being trained to handle large boats, laying of mines in coastal zones and planting of explosives under dams, bridges, ships etc.," says the letter, which was marked "secret."

"[T]hey are being taught navigational techniques, rescue operations, surveillance methods, concealment of explosives and underwater attack on enemy's coastal targets/vessels," the letter says.

Sriprakash Jaiswal, minister of state for home affairs, told reporters Friday that India's state governments were warned to boost coastal security two years ago. "But now with the new challenges, we will have to deal with this issue on a war footing," he said.

At a news conference in Mumbai, a marine commando, his face masked with a black handkerchief, said those who attacked the 400-room Taj were "very, very familiar with the hotel layout."

"We do not know the layout of hotels, and hence we had to find our way," the commando added. "There was blood all over the floor, bodies lying strewn in the blood.

"They were a very, very determined lot. They were moving from one place to the other," the commando said. "When we entered, there were three to four terrorists inside. Not everybody can fire AK-47 weapons like that. They were trained somewhere."

Police found backpacks at the Taj filled with rounds of ammunition and grenades, commandos said. In a room used by an attacker, police recovered credit cards from different banks and an identity card from Mauritius, an island nation off Africa's southeastern coast.

At least one commando was killed in the raid at Nariman House, the complex where the Chabad-Lubavitch center is situated. Before the raid, India's government blacked out all television news channels in Mumbai for nearly an hour, to prevent attackers from seeing coverage showing the positions of security forces.

Indian news agencies reported late Friday that Israel had criticized India's handling of the hostage crisis at Nariman House, after India spurned Israel's offer of military aid to help bring a quick end to the crisis.

By midday Friday, 98 people had been released from the Oberoi. Most looked tired after two sleepless nights barricaded behind locked doors as gunmen roamed the halls. The survivors were ushered onto air-conditioned tourist buses as police tried to hold back the scrum of reporters with video cameras.

Clutching luggage and cellphones, some peered through the bus's curtained windows. Several wept, tissues to their eyes. A man and a woman were bundled into a cab, each cradling a poodle.

Questions started to be raised about the failure to react swiftly enough, and many residents and opposition political leaders started to blame the government.

"The government has lost human lives here," said Raj Purohit, a local political opposition leader who was pacing at the site of the Nariman House. "It's a huge failure."


2. Your preference for disarmed citizens worked really well, didn't it?
 

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So

A lot of people are blaming the Indian government, but that seems pretty shaky too. The Taj is just across the road from the Gateway of India quay, where people could climb up anywhere, and a hundred yards later they'd be there. I doubt if armed citizens could have changed anything, except maybe to make the terrorists start shooting everybody in sight.

I bet to differ. If the Indians had a level of firearms ownership on par with areas of Texas or New Mexico the terrorists would have picked a "softer" target.

The vast majority of firearms massacres occur in "gun-free zones" in the US for a very good reason.

Just look at the Virginia Tech shooting, the students ran and hid, they didn't bother to throw books or anything at the shooter. Had some of the students been armed the losses in innocents would have been less.
 

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Just a minor point; Indian citizens can and do own firearms after obtaining a firearms license. I don't know about CCW, but I doubt it exists.

They do have a quirky law over there where arms can no longer be imported for the civilian market, so they have to rely on domestically produced guns and/or old (circa early-80s and before) foreign weapons.

Self-defense is a valid reason to apply for and receive a license, but hunting of any kind is not. Go figure.
 

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They may well turn out to be islamists, although some of the responsibility belongs to the people who have created the impression that Muslims get a dirty deal from their worldwide enemies. The offer of help from Israel was as cheap a trick as an offer of Russian help to the US during the Cold War would have been, for they knew that in a country with a large and mostly loyal Muslim population, it would have to be refused.

But there are reports that some of the terrorists claimed to be from a Hyderabad nationalist movement, which isn't incompatible with being islamists, but would be a classic example of how nations store up trouble for themselves. Hyderabad was a princely state within British India, which had a principally Hindu population and a Muslim ruler or mostly Turkish descent, the Nizam. Actually it was a very enlightened place, for although the Nizam amassed a vast personal fortune, he spent liberally on education and social services, and all the evidence is that most people liked it that way. He was extremely pro-British in both World Wars, spending large sums on raising regiments and buying aircraft for the Royal Air Force, etc. The Begum Noor Inayet Khan, a minor princess of Hyderabad, was executed in Dachau after serving as an SOE agent in France. She was a slipshod radio operator, who got other people caught by writing down her signals in violation of instructions. But although she was held by people too smart to torture her, she never talked. I don't doubt that her enemies called her a Muslim terrorist.

The Indian Independence Act gave native princes the right to accede freely to either India or Pakistan during partition. The Nizam showed some preference for Pakistan but was heavily leant on not to, just like the Muslim Maharajah of Kashmir when he decided to stay Indian. There was some Muslim intimidation in Hyderabad, but nothing compared with what went on among both sides, elsewhere in India. The Nizam then opted for remaining independent, as he had the treaty right to do, and India, founded on pacifism, invaded in 1948. It has since, at least, been less of a disaster than their similar action in Kashmir.

This is one of the few cases I have found of a blatantly biased Wikipedia article, written in Indian English. The one on Hyderabad doesn't mention his appeal to the Security Council, which was taken up with other events in 1948, or the invasion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inyat_Khan
 

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India, founded on pacifism, invaded in 1948. It has since, at least, been less of a disaster than their similar action in Kashmir.

This is one of the few cases I have found of a blatantly biased Wikipedia article, written in Indian English. The one on Hyderabad doesn't mention his appeal to the Security Council, which was taken up with other events in 1948, or the invasion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inyat_Khan
Pacifism, for Ghandi, was a political expediant, not a philosophy. As you pointed out, India invaded. Ghandi was not a fool on the world political theatre, but he was a clannish thug in his own right, who took India down a road of ethnic cleansings, and border wars.

I do not find it hard to belivee that the attacks were carried out by their own domestic terrorists, as they have, cince the 40s, had problems along that part of the border. Kinda Ironic how you have two distinct religious disciplines that on the surface avow peace, fall into bloody conflict at the touch of a hat. Kinda like the Balkans, or northern Ireland.
 

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Maybe we need another attack here in the States to remind people how fragile we are and how vigilant we should be.
 
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