[vivelacolo]

Since the time is runnig out and not seeing anything about bringing the stickies I am bringing this one.
Moderators,
If you think that it is inapropriate and if something is in the work, please delety
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 04:05:02 AM
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We have an opportunity to retrieve some of the lost history of the MAS 36. By comparative listing of known artifacts, the anecdotal tales which accompany these rifles may be confirmed or rejected, and fresh inquiries and debates enjoined. The monthly production rates will reflect upon the rush to war and provide a glimpse of France's industrial society, from the mid 1930s to the spring of 1940.

Primarily this will be a compendium of butt stock serial numbers, and the month and year exhibited within the "MA" cartouche. But beyond this, the incorporation of committed changes may be dated, sub contractors identified and tracked, lead time of barrel production established, and anomalies noted.

So feel free to include such things as the type of upper band and receiver, the manufacture's code, the acceptance proofs upon the receiver ring, the date and code of the barrel, and any other information which you feel is of note. With time, it is hoped that photographic inclusions will document various features and sub types.

The scope of this thread, I assume, will be guided by the moderators, but the content will depend upon the participation of all board members, which is your good right. I am a dilettante in this matter, and have as much to learn here as any of you. I am serving only as the scrivener, so let me thank you in advance for your contributions and edifications.

Thomas M. Giles/ Orc Mastiffs

##################################################

G 11X October 1937
G 6241 March 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver /"E" Mfg. / L M C proofs /Barrel top- Full serial number & "E" & ["G" in shield] /Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1937
G 11803 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver /"E" Mfg. / L M C proofs /Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] /Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
G 12806 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver /"E" Mfg. / L M C proofs /Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] /Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
G 167XX September 1938
G 325XX February 1939
G 34140 Unknown / Type 1 receiver /"E" Mfg. / L M C proofs /Barrel top-"F" [no proof] /Bottom flat-"G" MAT 1937
G 347XX February 1939
G 35223 Ferruary 1939
G 386XX February 1939
G 405XX Unknown 1939 /"E" Mfg. / L M G proofs /Barrel flat-MAT 1938
G 42XXX March 1939
G 45078 April 1939
G 453XX April 1939
G 67719 July 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver /Barrel bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
G 76328 Unknown 1939
G 98738 October 1939

H 1397X December 1939
H 17066 December 1939
H 243XX January 1940
H 29251 Unknown 1940
H 34020 January 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver / "E" Mfg./ L M G proofs /Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] /Bottom flat-"AS" MAS 1939
H 38566 February 1940
H 49756 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
H 62535 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver/ "E" Mfg./ Concentric circles / L M [no final proof] /Barrel top-"E" [no proof] /Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1939
H 637XX March 1940
H 6399X March 1940
H 74410 April 1940 / Type 2 Transitional band & Type 2 modified receiver /"E" Mfg. / L M G proofs / "LK5" marked stock /Barrel top-"E" [no proof] /Bottom flat-"A" MAT 1939
H 753XX April 1940
H 79037 April 1940
H 82477 April 1940
H 8254X April 1940
H 91525 Unknown 1940 /Barrel flat MAT 1940
H 963XX April 1940
H 96738 May 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver / "E" Mfg./ L M G proofs / Perhaps a delayed acceptance rifle, as the J 6187 would otherwise be antecedent

J 6187 April 1940
J 8254 May 1940
J 20233 June 1940

K 2502 May 1940
K 7227 June 1940 / "E" "MF" Mfg.

L 35XX June 1940
****************************************************
K 319XX October 1944 /1940 Barrel / Type 2 rear sight base w/ Type 1 sight leaf & slider
****************************************************
Mystery Sterile / Type 2 band & receiver / Type 1 rear sight /Barrel top-"E" & [encircled "C" or "G"] /Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1939 / Receiver left flat marked "MAS Mle 1936" on partially milled surface.

Mystery #320 / Type 2 upper band & receiver

####################################################

M 435XX March [year not discernable]
M 88590 July 1946

Q 306X April 1950

####################################################

MAS 36-51

F 115XX [August or October] 1953
F 600XX October 1956 /1963 barrel / Walnut stocks


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Edited by - orcmastiffs on 09/10/2007 03:04:19 AM

vivelacolo
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
304 Posts
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 6:29:34 PM
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Finally a sticky for the inventory of MAS 36
Here is my list, they are close enough to the surface so I can get to them.
A couple of those, already, are possibly on the list.

G 347xx Fevrier 1939
G 677xx Juillet 1939 1er type all matching, got it last week end.

Download Attachment:
98.71 KB


Download Attachment:
171.09 KB

Download Attachment:
195.74 KB
H 47xx stock not readable bolt plug 2nd type
H 89xx stock not readable bolt plug 2nd type
H 385xx Fevrier 1940
H 825xx Avril 1940
Mystery MAS 36 #320 bolt plug 2nd type, reinforced front band at the screw.

Post war oddities
MAS 36 LG 48 Q 224xx stock not readable forehand walnut 1st type
M 435xx mars ? could be 46.
Download Attachment:
161.21 KB


Download Attachment:
164.6 KB
As others prewar MAS 36 emerge I will post them on the list.
I believe that the first two modifications were the reinforcement at the screw of the front band and the modification of the bolt plug. The date at which it was started?
This survey will be extremely helpful, thank you.
Best regards





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Robert Olivier


The Stone Master
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
160 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:34:17 PM
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MAS 36 (formerly "mummyfied")
SER# K884XX
Bbl: 1962, G near f/sight, no undercut (this undercut is only on LG48's it seems)
Wood: standard 70's refurb, no markings, birch, new
Floorplate: not serialized. Forged (not sheet metal)
Bayonet: not serialized, crisp 90deg knurling.
Metal finish: parkerized

MAS 36 LG48 (puzzle gun?). Not marked "LG48"
SER# Q(Cursive)188XX
Bbl: 1960 !!! and this is my puzzle
Cut unfinished machined flat under sight (G marked near sight)
Parked (new looking under wood, but old blue on exposed part--turning somewhat brown and MATCHING the receiver)
Wood: Not new, has character and handling marks but not "ratty";almost has tiger striping, shiny but not varnished nor stained nor sanded, faint very timid ghost of parts of a macaron but far from legible. ALL matching
Floor plate: matching, forged (not sheet metal)
Bayo: Matching, shallow diagonal knurling.
Metal finish: old blue almost turning plum, except wood covered section of bbl(parkerized)... bubba?
I have long thought this was a made up sample but the wood machining/fit for the grenade sight is too perfect and the rest of the wood looks umolested and honestly worn (my forensic analysis ). There were field conversions of 36's to 36 LG48 and marked as such, while the arsenal builds were not marked "LG48"(ISTBC), but why a 1960 barrel when the LG48 was obsolete since at least 1950-1951 when the NATO grenade was adopted ? (and the MAS 36-51 was already issued).

MAS 36-51
Ser# F600XX
Bbl: 1963 G near f/sight, no undercut as is on LG48
Wood: Crisp dark walnut with crisp Ser# parralel to barette, crisp macaron Octobre 1956
Bayo: Deep sharp 45deg knurling but not matching.
Floor plate: not matching (G series). Has bump out at rear end.
Metal finish: parkerized.

Bore recessed (counterbored) at muzzle on all 3 rifles.

Will post pix's if someone can tell me how to properly photograph rifles full length.

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Cultivons notre jardin -Voltaire in "Candide"
The Stone Master

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Edited by - The Stone Master on 07/25/2007 11:33:10 PM


orcmastiffs
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 01:37:00 AM
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Stone Master:

Vonmazur's input under the "LG48 variations?" thread, below, addresses your barrel question.




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Edited by - orcmastiffs on 07/26/2007 7:31:26 PM


Alamas
Gunboards Member



France
40 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 10:07:09 AM
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I can add these ones :
MAS 36 serial number H 963XX April 1940
MAS 36/51 serial number F 115XX 1953 month very damaged (may be a U and a T in top position for august but that could be either a O and a B for october).

I don't think that we could make any conclusion for the MAS 36 CR 39 (no year or month on the folding stock, no apparent logical in the serial numbers, locally transformed MAS 36 in Indochina, renumbered or not, and even rebuilt rifles for the "Dien Bien Phu" film by Schoendoerffer).

Make sure there is no hollow at the place of your serial number on the stock (re-use of the stock of another rifle, former serial number erased before the imprint of a new one). On a 07-15 M16 I have seen, the former serial number was almost entirely erased, but the MA cartouche was intact (The change was easy to see, the year was very different than the one on the chamber, but if the re-used stock had been of the same year?).
This is may be the explanantion for this anomaly : In "fusils et carabines de collection" by Pellaton, Caranta, Bonsignori and Jordanoglou, 2nd edition, page 115, a MAS 36, serial number H 97838 (markings on the barrel E L M), cartouche reproduced (drawing) and noted as septembre 1939.
Best regards
Alamas


orcmastiffs
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 10:12:18 PM
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Alamas:

So many numbers on the master list are your contributions, and your H 963XX is another significant addition. We now see, implicit, over 20,000 "H" units accepted in that month, and an end date of April, or the first days of May, for that series.

Lastly, as the list expands, we might get a glimpse of whether the CR39 [Type 1] was built on reworked "F" receivers, or upon an unfinished serial number block, of that series.

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Edited by - orcmastiffs on 08/07/2007 2:11:31 PM


Alamas
Gunboards Member



France
40 Posts
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 5:37:50 PM
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In the "Gazette des Armes" 34 of january 1976, Pierre LORAIN has given the following datas about the monthly production of the MAS 36 : 7000 units the 1st september 1939, 18000 units the 1st February 1940, and 30000 units the 1st may 1940. This not because it is written that it is true, but in that case, Pierre LORAIN seemed to be right.
To add some more "book knowledge", in a special issue of the "Gazette des armes" about the french armament between 1918 and 1940, Stéphane FERRARD wrote that 63000 MAS 36 were delivered when the reserve has joined their units on september the 3rd 1939, and a total of 250 000 had been delivered the 06/23/1940.
I hope this survey will help a lot to check these datas.
Best regards
Alamas



tplan
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
834 Posts
Posted - 07/31/2007 : 01:54:30 AM
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G405XX, 1939, month unreadable, barrel MAT 1938. Receiver ring, E, shield G, diamond L, oval M.

John


orcmastiffs
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 07/31/2007 : 03:53:37 AM
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tplan:

Thank you for the contribution with the expanded information. Your rifle exhibits the earliest "Shield G" to date.


lite-box
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
616 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 12:54:26 AM
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H 96738 May 1940. In pre-war configuration, cartouche MAT( MAY ? ) S MA L 1940

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Edited by - lite-box on 08/01/2007 01:02:09 AM


orcmastiffs
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 03:22:20 AM
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Lite-box:

The "T" in the month "MAT" is an "I". But that aside, this takes the "H" series into the fifth month of 1940, for the first time. Might I trouble you for the type of receiver and upper band, and the letter proofs which appear upon the receiver ring. Should you have cause to remove the fore wood, the date and manufacturer's code of the barrel would be welcomed.

Of further interest is the possibility that this is a delayed acceptance rifle, as we see a "J" series recorded for April, and thus antecedent.

Lite-Box:

Ref the pictures below: The upper band is a type one, without added/retained material in the area of the cross pin thread hole. Judging on the depth of the bolt cap, I believe that the receiver is also a type one, without the mill out at the tang.

Very nice rifle in pre Battle-of-France configuration, with only the sling looking to be post war.

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Edited by - orcmastiffs on 08/02/2007 01:14:28 AM


lite-box
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
616 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 6:30:34 PM
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It is MAI

recvr ring markings, E, G in shield, L in diamond, M in circle.

Not up to speed on band / recvr variations.. but here are some pics..

The " Story " that came with rifle was that it was a Vietnam War bringback










scotte
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
226 Posts
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 3:14:01 PM
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Mine is a L962XX still in the wrap from 3/1/76 referb. Bolt serial is same as reciever, rear site has MAC stamped on the rear, back end of bolt has a DM stamp, on the front top of real site, a II stamped and the range is 1200. Front site appears to have a hood on it, but not sure since it is still wrapped. Wood looks to be blond and in nice condition. I wish I could get to the barrel date, but cannot due to wrapping. Hope this helps.
scotte

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Edited by - scotte on 08/05/2007 3:15:28 PM


kelt
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



France
2315 Posts
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 10:13:47 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by orcmastiffs

Alamas:

So many numbers on the master list are your contributions, and your H 963XX is another significant addition. We now see, implicit, over 20,000 "H" units accepted in that month, and an end date of April, or the first days of May, for that series.

Regarding the out of sequence "G", from July 1939; the contributor has included pictures, which are to be seen above. There may be other late acceptance rifles on the list, but at this time, only this one has revealed itself.

Lastly, as the list expands, we might get a glimpse of whether the CR39 [Type 1] was built on reworked "F" receivers, or upon an unfinished serial number block, of that series.

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Robert's G 67719 stamped july 39 is not out of sequence, it's my G 76328 with an unmarked replacement stock that was "guesstimated" as from June 39 based on the dates of reception from two other rifles (G35223 of 2-39 and G98738 of 10-39).

kelt


orcmastiffs
Gunboards Member



USA
42 Posts
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 2:22:28 PM
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Kelt:

Thank you for the correction. Adjustment has been made to the master list and the ancilary texts have been edited.


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[marvell]

Got a MAS-36 today. Very nice condition overall and complete. The bad news is it's a CAI. Numbers are all mis-matched. It's pretty cosmo'd up but does have several French Arsenal documents with it. Will have to send it north for the Grampa breakdown and cleaning special, great price on this special at $0. I would like to help your survey but need to know which number you would like and where to look for it. It has a new electro-pencil number on it which matches the French Arsenal docs, but I don't think this is what you are looking for. It was Arsenaled in 1978 and it appears the previous owner bought this in 2002. The strange thing is that the CAI import marks were covered with cosmo, but the new serial number was clean? And, probably most important, anything I should look for that would make this rifle unsafe to shoot? Thanks, Marvell

 

[mixdenny]

Here is the information from my MAS 36 (not a 36-51). The serial number K 51960 marked on all parts . The cursive letter is hard to read, I think it is a "K", but I guess it could be an "H". Type 2 everything, although a machined trigger guard, not a built-up one. Stock cartouche: MA, Mai 1952. Barrel: MAS 1952 SE. Receiver ring: EBG.

Dennis

 

[orcmastiffs]

Blind downrange, drugs, alcohol & UAR ammo

anything I should look for that would make this rifle unsafe to shoot? Thanks, Marvell[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have a rather different rework. These rifles run the gamete of treatments, from what I suppose was the unit armourer, through depot level on up to the most typical rework, which appears to have had a standardized work order and facility. Pictures would be fun, but the rifle might be outside the pale of this survey, which matches S/Ns to barrel and stock dates. The master serial number would be the one upon the left receiver flat, which I presume matches the scribing penciled numbers? If not, the stranger still! Other markings of interest are the inspection bugs found on the left quadrant of the receiver ring.

As to safety, the MAS 36 is a masterpiece of engineering economy, considering the processes and materials of its time, but as yours is a mixed rework, all of the standard precautions should be followed. Use French surplus ammo, if you can find it, or commercial factory loads. When a round is chambered, the bolt should lock up crisply, completely and with no more resistance than when it is closed on an empty chamber; that is your "Go" gauge. The tried and true sand bag and string, "No-Go", is an option, but interchangeability is excellent, and the action, while not the strongest military bolt rifle, is strong enough to handle excessive headspace. (THAT LAST STATEMENT IS THE WORST KIND OF INTERNET ADVICE, but it has often been my practice, and I still have one shoulder and one and a half eyes. Let us not forget that facial scars give an ugly man authority, and a handsome man, tragic character.) Make sure the bolt cap is locked as far as it will go in the counter-clockwise position. Lastly, with the bolt locked and detented, raise the bolt handle to apogee, without drawing back the bolt body, then return to the locked position. The striker should be cocked. If it is not, then do not trust your sear engagement. A new firing pin will often correct this condition.

Rightfully, this question should have been dealt with in a separate thread, where I am sure you would have received more input. Let the old man look it over, and if the bore, headspace and break are to military spec, i should think that you will be amazed at how well it shoots. The overly short length-of-pull is easily overcome in every position except prone, by keeping the butt snug to your shoulder.

 

[orcmastiffs]

Here is the information from my MAS 36 (not a 36-51). The serial number K 51960 marked on all parts . The cursive letter is hard to read, I think it is a "K", but I guess it could be an "H". Type 2 everything, although a machined trigger guard, not a built-up one. Stock cartouche: MA, Mai 1952. Barrel: MAS 1952 SE. Receiver ring: EBG.

Dennis

Could the prefix be an "X" perhaps, because the "K"s were done in early 45 and the "H"s around May Day, 1940. Sounds like you have quite a find, as very few post war rifles have survived the rework program, with their cartouche intact, and matching numbers.

 

[mixdenny]

After looking at it with my magnifiers, it still looks like a "K". I will attach a closeup photo. Unfortunately, it is the rifle I purchased to build my FR-F1 replica (see the MAS Barrel and FR-F1 thread), so the receiver has been machined.

 

[orcmastiffs]

Well, phooey and bother, so it is.

This survey was started to disabuse the self appointed of their preconceptions, and there I was looking for an "X" series, to avoid redacting the "Kings List". We have had other indications that the rifles were serialized before acceptance, but the most substantive example was later discounted as a reporting error. That the list contains a documented May 1940 "H", along side an anecdotal April 1940 "J", was a cipher, but by no means conclusive. Also, the 6K numbered "G", with the S/N stamped upon the chamber swell of the barrel, hidden beneath the wood, was another indicator. However, this rifle of yours, with the "MA" cartouche dated seven years out-of-sequence, truly revives the question.

It has been my intent to re-list the survey, with additions and illustrative photos; hopefully that will be soon. Until such time, this anomaly will be a footnote below a dry and garbled list. Thank you for the contribution and the kick in the butt.

 

[fatassmonster]

Mas 1936

I have recently inherited a MAS 36. The serial numbers match all around. I also have a problem trying to desirer the letter in front of the serial number. It looks like an X, K or H. There is a circle stamp on the butt with a MA in it also says 1940. The serial number is 11569 with an unknown letter. The barrel is longer than the ones I see in the pictures. The barrel is stamped under the wood 8X57. What does this mean? There is no wood on the top of the barrel and the piece on the bottom has no bayonet or place for one. Is this standard of was it modified in its life time? It is also stamped were the barrel and the bolt meet it looks like E MF. Was this gun made in 1940? Was there originally a bayonet and shorter barrel? Thanks

 

[orcmastiffs]

FAM: Wonderful, and welcome to the board. This rifle of yours deserves pictures and a thread of its own, so that the general membership, and those more knowledgeable than myself, might respond. This particular thread is a dry and garbles reference, brought forward from the old boards, badly in need of a rewrite and update, and visited more for data than for dialogue.

Your rifle is a ManuFrance assembled "K" from June, 1940. Approximately 30,000 were made prior to the June 25th armistice. A rather less common series, and of interest, as so few have been reported. Your serial number, in fact, is the highest of sequence to date.

As for the later modifications, others should be more helpful. Surely, your rifle when accepted for service, as the "MA" cartouche attests, was in the standard military calibre and configuration.

 

[metalman3006]

mas 36

My mas sn- L65371 and has a barrel dated 1945.
It is a CAI import but does have a matching bolt.

 

[orcmastiffs]

MM3006: Your information has been added to the "New Survey". This particular tread has been locked, and may only be modified by the moderators. Thank you for the input. Giles/ Orc

 

[drpop]

I recently acquired a MAS 36 through gunbroker, and I'm curious about figuring out whether or not it is a post war production. Its serial number is 21437, but the seller did not list the alphabetical prefix (if there was one), so I'm not sure if that will help with identification. I've been lurking on this board for the past month or so, but I've never really discovered anything definitive regarding what is absolutely an "early" feature and what is a "late". If one of you very experienced people could give me a hand, I'd be incredibly grateful.

Also, I've seen that the finish on the metal of the rifles varies greatly. Can one particular finish be attributed to pre-war or post-war?

Attached is a picture of the rifle from the auction, for reference.

 

[28 mosin]

Oops

 

[geeded1]

Just got a MAS 49-51, NO import marks and all original & matching (except bayo). Worn park (they had done away w/the black paint by then correct?).
Rifle has seen much action and the rifle has a nice worn patina and the bore is clean but not shiny. S/N is FJ006xx. The cartouche is worn off, any idea when it was made?

Cheers

 

[daveccarlson]

New-since-rebuilt post-war Fusil 7,5mm Mle 36

Hello,

I'm brand new to the French service rifle club. I just unwrapped and cleaned a 1946 [?] MAS Mle 36 service rifle that had been packed up at Establissement E.R.G.M. de Clermont-Ferrand in September 1976. I think that this survey is more for the pre-war versions, but my serial number is script M 30830. I think that is around 1946. It has the phosphate parkerized finish, and only the bolt and the receiver numbers match. The barrel has the deep recessed muzzle crown and "G" marking for use with grenade launchers. [Those of us familiar with the Mosin-Nagant mistake this feature as a counterbore I guess...] It all appears to be a second type MAS 36, but it does have the first type of magazine floor plate with the faint serial script K 31723 still visible. I think the stock furniture was added at rebuild, but there is a faint stock cartouche indicating September 1946 St. Etienne.

I'll post some pictures of my acquisition as soon as my camera batteries are charged up. I'm looking forward to taking it to the range!

 

[orcmastiffs]

daveccarlson:

If the stock is numbered 'M 30830', the list would have it as typically a February 1946 unit. If not, the number upon the stock would likely be from the early 'N' block, and that information would be helpful to the 'list'. [The 'New MAS Mle 1936' collective survey is a much expanded "Sticky" at the top of this index.]

As you seem well informed about the Mle 1936, you will know that the "G" barrel is a replacement, and should be in much better condition than the original one which would have rendered twenty years of service. Most of the 'reworks' are excellent shooters, and the more one shoots, the better they become. Only the heavily Parkerized rifles, new from the protective wrap, or those which were only bore-sighted, may require special attention.

Thank you for the input. Let us know about butt-stock serial number and the cartouche. Best of luck.

 

[daveccarlson]

I cannot make out the serial number on the butt stock, I'm afraid. The last numbers look like 3065, but the prefix and first number are absent. I do not know if the French sanded or pressure cleaned the wood on old stocks or not. The numbers on the stock are between the buttplate and the sling bar, if that helps. As for the cartouche, it is not too visible, but 1946 is distinct, and it looks to me like Septiembre. Once my camera batteries are charged, I'll put up some pics here on another thread. It has a milled trigger guard with what I assume to be portions of the earlier enamel finish under the reparkerizing. This one is new from the wrap it was put in at Clermont-Ferrand in September 1976. The rear sight leaf is stamped "N" for neutral or no adjustment.