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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello Folks -

The BBT just delivered an untouched 8x50 Steyr Stutzen-karabiner. Took a chance as it was billed as an out-of-the attic find. Well, this one certainly is. Lots of light surface rust, and the bore is filled with cobwebs :eek: and old dried cosmo on most of the parts.

But, it is all matching and untouched. A quick brush of the markings shows the chamber stamped with "W-r <Austro-Hungarian Eagle> 18". Yes, it is possibly a deformed 'n' but looks like a -r. Was there ever such a beast?

Anyway, this is a very late war production and it shows. The stock has a nice knot right in the middle of the butt. Stock is also a secondary wood species. Also regimentally marked "18 R / 1457". The eagles on the right side barrel/receiver are stamped upside down....

Will post some pics in a bit. - Pics added. Remember this is as delivered, BC before cleaning. :eek: Popped the handguard and 100% blue beneath.

- Best Regards! Mike
 

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Nice find. The stutzencarbines are quite a scarce variation that have only been observed with 1917 an 1918 dates. It has dual swivels on the rear band and the ersatz style rear swivel, correct? It's a Wn18 marking on the barrel, but likely just badly stamped. Many 1916-1918 barrel dates are horribly stamped, so the Wr makes perfect sense. Nice find with matching numbers...I think I may have it's brother though. I just added an M95 carbine stutzen a couple months ago that I think is issued to the same unit. I'll have to check over Christmas.
Take care,
John
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Hi John -

No doubt a badly stamped variation.

This is actually a 1918 'standard' stutzenkarbiner with the regular lower swivel and the side bar, bottom swivel on the lower band. All of the sn's are original and not restamps.

I know what variation you are talking about, have one of the '18s with the ersatz swivel, etc. in the collection. That's why this threw me a bit, I expected that type. (Seller's photos were atrocious.)

Thanks for the info, pics to follow shortly. Will be most interesting if yours is marked to the same regiment!

- Best Regards! Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Sounds like a carbine stutzen, but still a pretty good find. Can't wait to see pictures.
Hi John -

Pics added above. I'm thinking, unless the old brain has deteriorated that much.... :eek: , stutzenkarabiner. Isn't the shorter distance between bands characteristic of the stutzen?

I find the knots in the buttstock most interesting. Really points out the shortages of the late war period.

- Best Regards! Mike
 

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Nice carbine...I think I e-mailed the seller about it a few months ago and he claimed it was already sold. Nice score. It is indeed a carbine stutzen, or that's the term used for it. The stutzen carbine has the carbine style stock with a greater distance between the bands, ersatz rear swivel, and dual band swivels. This has nothing to do with the stutzen, which has the shorter distance between the bands and lower swivels only. The carbine stutzen is just like yours with the stutzen configuration stock, wrist swivel, and sling bar on the side of the rear band. It confused me too for the first five years or so until I purchased Gabriel's book.
 

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It is a karabiner-stutzen - a stutzen with added karabiner features.

And yes, one of the main features of the stutzens is the longer distance between the bands; plus lower sling swivels originally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Addendum...

I couldn't figure out where I was going wrong. Thought it might go back to my phytological education, placing Genus (primary classification) before species (secondary classification).

But then I pulled out my copy of the K.U.K.'s 1918 Inventory (Merkblatter) of Austro-Hungarian and Captured Weapons. In that they refer by name and with a drawing to the converted stutzen (with side bar and side swivel added and, it appears, standard lower swivel) as the stutzenkarabiner. There is no reference to or listing of a karabinerstutzen in this publication.

So, what the....?

- Best Regards! Mike
 

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... There is no reference to or listing of a karabinerstutzen in this publication.

So, what the....?
As Prez mentioned, the terminology most collectors accept is the one used in Erich Gabriel's book on the Austrian weapons "Die Hand- und Faustfeuerwaffen der habsburgischen Heere" (E. Gabriel is a curator of the Heeresmuseum in Vienna).

There is also a series of articles in DWJ by his colleague Josef Motz ("Das Mannlicher Waffensystem Muster 1895") where these terms - Karabinerstutzen & Stutzenkarabiner - are used also. The nomenclature is listed in a table named "Unterscheidungstabelle der Waffenreihe Mannlicher M.95 bis 1918". Another category that is very seldom mentioned is the Karabiner mit oberem Stutzenring - a carbine with upper band from a stutzen that allows mounting of a bayonet and stacking in a "pyramid".
 

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What a small world...checked my picture archive today...I have Steyr M95 Carbine Stutzen dated Wn (shield) 17 marked to the same unit, the 18th Infantry Regiment!

As to the Stutzencarbine/Carbinestutzen debate...sigh...I was looking through the 1918 A-H rifle and pistol inventory and you are correct, it does list the stutzencarbine. The carbinestutzen is not listed at all, nor are the two later-types of carbines differentiated. In the drawing it does appear to have a sling bar. Granted it is a drawing and some of the other drawings are quite generic (stutzen rear swivel is not drawn correctly, but is drawn just like a rifle rear swivel).

The reference I usually use is Erich Gabriel's "Die Hand-und Faustfeuerwaffen der habsburgischen Heere." That reference pictures the carbinestutzen as the variant with the sling bar and shorter distance between the front and rear bands. It pictures the rifle with the standard two-screw rear swivel. Gabriel also pictures the stutzencarbine with the longer distance between the two bands, dual swivels on the rear band, and ersatz swivel on the lower butt. The piece is 1917 dated and was issued to 3SR.

The other reference I sometimes use (that doesn't have anywhere near the quality of pictures as Gabriel) is Siro Offelli's "Le Armi e Gli Equipaggiamenti Dell-Esercito Austro-Ungarico dal 1914 al 1918." This one pictures the carbinestutzen the just like Gabriel does. The inconsistency is with the stutzencarbine, which is pictured with dual swivels on the rear band, but in a stock with the stutzen distance between the two bands. The rear lower swivel on this one is the standard two screw swivel, not the ersatz like the one pictured in Gabriel. Granted, some of these dual swivel M95's with the stutzen-like stock could be around, but none have been pictured or reported in the seven years or so I've been looking. Then again, only about 10 or fewer of what we referred to as stutzencarbines have been reported/seen out of hundreds.

Of these sources, I would tend to rely upon Gabriel far more heavily than other references, although the 1918 inventory is intriguing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks Andy - Most interesting to tie some history with an individual piece. The regimentals are always a bonus!

Nick, John - Many thanks for the additional references. I was beginning to think I had lost it with the terminologies. Had my head spinning for a while. It is interesting to see the the difference, especially between such renowned resources and an 'Official" publication from the period. With the K.U.K. publication the other detail that lends itself to the illustration of the SK being an actual modified stutzen is the bayonet description. It is the same for both the stutzen and stutzenkarabiner, but different from the karabiner.

Arrrggghhhh..... details! :)

- Best Regards! Mike
 
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