[cncman]

got these in today, glad to have them, the one scabbard it pretty much the same as the one 7x57 posted here and is from the same source. http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...yonet-arrived-today-but-what-did-I-really-get . I don't think it was mentioned before but the inner metal ring is actually a grooved sectioned tube that springs to hold the bayonet. Also what looks like a frog from a VZ24 dated 1951.

 

[7x57]

Nice finds, indeed. Is this the same Remington bayonet offered recently on ebay? I also considered bidding on it for a short time - but now I'm glad I didn't, hate to deliver a bidding struggle with an other forum member. Especially interesting for me is of course the "Châtellerault-type" scabbard you got with - I assume - the Sestroretsk bayonet. What are the exact dimensions (overall length, outer diameter at the mouth and length of the frog hook part parallel to the scabbard) and the weight of it? When I look at your first picture of this scabbard, I see a round, shiny spot - looks to me as if there had been a different frog attachment before (maybe that knob-type one often seen on German ersatz scabbards). A second possibility in my eyes is that your scabbard has been re-worked from a Lebel 1886 scabbard. In this case there should be some traces on the opposite side also from the other end of the U-shaped frog attachment lug of the Lebel scabbard (see attached picture of such a Lebel scabbard). My scabbard has a rather crudely finished seam running along its whole length and there are some traces of a medium grey paint (German Field Grey?) left. Until now I could not identify any maker's or inspector's markings or traces/parts of them on my scabbard. How are those points with yours?As you can read in my M91 scabbard thread, I'm still not certain about the correct origin of my scabbard. At the moment I see the following options:- genuine Châtellerault-made scabbard (would be really great, but rather doubtful, I'm afraid)- German or Finnish ersatz scabbard (not a "jackpot" like a Châtellerault one, but nevertheless a nice and not too common item)- (Balkan?-made) makeshift wartime scabbard, maybe made from a Lebel 1886 or similar scabbard (also acceptable and not documented as such until now)- an item more or less recently faked in parts or completely by a gifted south-east European village blacksmith (no comment...)Some more high-resolution pictures showing details would be nice.Sorry for the ugly appearance of my post - somehow formatting does not work at the moment.

 

[cncman]

It weighs 175.96g overall length is 17 1/8" length of the hook 1 1/4" the spot you see is only on the one side, it actually is a stud that goes through the insert to keep it from sliding around. It is rather high near the lip so I think someone was just tired of it spinning around in there and fixed it by putting the stud in there. My eyes may not be trained very well but I don't see any traces of paint, the whole thing just looks blued to me. It does have the rough seam on it and I can't find any proof or makers marks on it at all. My guess is these are both an unknown ersatz scabbard. The only reason is by reasonable elimination. It is most likely that these would have ended up in Romania after they fought AH, which explains the normal AH ersatz scabbards we have seen from the same source. So while it would be great, to think that two chatellerault scabbards would have gone through the Russians and captured by AH and then lost to Romania and ended up in the same sellers collection seems very unlikely. I also believe we can forget about fakery. If the seller faked them he would have been pumping them up as Chatellerault ones, he is a nice young man that really doesn't know a lot about these, just got them, so he said to me, from his friend that works at some depot or base. It also does not have any modern look or feel to it, it does look and feel period to spend that much time and effort for something that will sell for around $100 seems a waste of talent to me. Hopefully someone like KH or JPS will figure it out for us.

 

[7x57]

Thanks, cncman. Your weight and dimension data match pretty well with mine (weight about 180 g - my scales are not that precise - and length values differing not more than 1 mm - 434/435 and 31.75/31 respectively, first figures are of yours). A close inspection of all pictures I have collected from the WWW of such scabbards revealed one difference between some of them - the form of the frog hook. There are two groups - one has a more teardrop-shaped hook like ours, the other group (e.g. KH Wrobel's scabbard, the two examples of Trajan and the last one from "Sigge's Bajonette" website I've recently added to my thread) has hooks with more straight looking side lines.So maybe this form of the hook is the key to distinguish a Châtellerault scabbard from a German or Finnish ersatz one. But as you pointed out - I'm afraid only the real experts like KH or JPS can clarify this. I did what I could to collect as many pieces of information as possible, but I simply don't have the key background information for a final judgement.BTW - until the October Revolution there were two Russian armies fighting the Germans and Austro-Hungarians side by side with the Romanian army on a front line running from the mouth of the Danube river roughly along the Sereth river and up to the Carpatian mountains to the area of Tirgu Ocna (see Battles of Marasti and Marasesti in 1917 - also called the "Verdun of the Eastern Front"). Not to forget the southern end of the Russian front in the northern part of the Carpatian mountains and the Bukovina - today also Romanian territory. So Russian equipment parts do not necessarily have been captured twice (first by AH and then by Romania) to reach the Romanians. They can also simply have been left there when the Russians withdrew after the Revolution.