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I saved this from the old Forum and am reposting it on the new Forum. Unforunately I couldn't get the pictures in "ncsammy's" reply to my original post to transfer, or I don't know how.
David Franchi
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Old Post Jan 2006
This is going to be a long post on the M41 (HK 7.9) Carcano and its front sight hood, hope you find it interesting.
David Franchi
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I recently picked up a German Heinrich Krieghoff "HK" 7,9mm conversion of a late-war M41 Carcano long rifle (that was duffle bag cut) which has the front sight post cut/grooved for a hood. I was never certain these "cuts/grooves" were war time done, now I am as this rifle was converted by "HK" and returned to the U.S. by a G.I. If interested here is the link to the earlier thread on the M41 using K98 sight hoods.
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http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16062
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I now also believe the correct hood for these late war M41 Carcanos is the hood used on the German Volkssturm VG-1. As stated in the earlier thread link, I was told by a fellow collector he once had a M41 Carcano with a VG-1 sight hood. Since I didn't know what a VG-1 sight hood looked like (until the new book "Desperate Measures The Last-Ditch Weapons Of The Volkssturm" by Darrin Weaver) I didn't know what to look for. In Mr. Weaver's book the VG-1 rifles have a sight hood which looks very close to a German G33/40 hood. I wrote a couple of collectors about VG-1 rifles in their collection to find out if the VG-1 hood was a G33/40. I was told "VG1's had their own type of hood that was similar to the G33/40 style but different. Most were phosphate finish."
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The VG-1 and G33/40 hoods are both notched to fit around the rifles front sight post. (See photo links below)
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VG-1 sight hoods (figure 227) from the book "Desperate Measures The Last-Ditch Weapons Of The Volkssturm" by Darrin Weaver. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/5282699/113930604.jpg
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Sight hoods K-98 left, G33/40 right (repro)
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Side View
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/5282699/113936166.jpg
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Front View K-98 G33/40
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/5282699/113936172.jpg
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Bottom View K-98 G33/40
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/5282699/113936177.jpg
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I tried a reproduction G33/40 hood (can't find an original) on my M41 Carcano and it fits perfectly, the cut outs on the bottom of the G33/40 hood fit around the Carcano sight post.
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Now I'm not sure if the Carcano used a VG-1 or G33/40 hood. BUT I AM FAIRLY CERTAIN ONE OF THESE HOODS WOULD BE CORRECT FOR THE M41 CARCANO. It makes sense, to me, the Germans would use the notched G33/40 hood.
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This rifle also brings up the question if the front sight post grooves/cuts were a German addition.
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(PHOTO LINKS)
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Front sight post grooves, side view.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133490.jpg
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Close-up Front sight post grooves, side view. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133492.jpg
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Close-up front sight post grooves, angle view. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125134430.jpg
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G33/40 sight hood installed, side view.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133494jpg
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Close-up G33/40 sight hood installed, side view http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133493.jpg
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Close-up G33/40 sight hood installed, angle view. Note the nice fit. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133810.jpg
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Now about the rifle. It is a standard German "HK" conversion of a late war Terni M41. Rifle is "duffle bag cut" half way between the bayonet lug and the front sling mount.
The original serial number was BB 6489 which is in the range of "grooved" front sight posts.
The "HK" serial number is H7169 It has the (HK) on top of the receiver, 7,9 on the barrel step, German test firing proof on the right side barrel, "HK" serial on the left side of the barrel & receiver, below the receiver in the stock, also electric penciled on the bolt body. The original Italian serial on the buttstock is marked out with "lazy 0's", and the original barrel serial is over-struck with the "HK" serial. It has the added German recoil bolt/lug through the stock with the Gustloff Werke "G" marking. Front and rear sights altered (front has the taller German blade, rear has had the adjusting leaf removed). Lower spine of buttstock has a German acceptance marking in front of the sling mount. (can't read it as it has a stock blemish in this spot, but it appears to be an HZa marking)
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One odd detail is the added German "HK" serial on the left side of the stock was stamped before the recoil bolt/lug was installed, resulting in the stock serial being obscured when the recoil bolt/lug was added. The "HK" serial is normally located farther back on the stock.
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Photo links to rifle pictures.
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RS overall view of rifle.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133478.jpg
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LS overall view of rifle.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133481.jpg
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LS of receiver/barrel/stock markings.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133483.jpg
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Added German "HK" receiver serial.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133485.jpg
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Top of receiver/barrel, Late "Terni" markings and added German "7.9" & (HK). http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125136175.jpg
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Original Italian barrel serial, overstamped with German H7169 serial. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133484.jpg
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German test firing proof on RS of barrel. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125165303.jpg
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Italian buttstock serial, marked out with "0's". http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125135820.jpg
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Added "HK" stock serial (approx 3/8" tall), note German "G" marked recoil lug.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133482.jpg
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Altered rear sight.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133486.jpg
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Added "electric penciled" bolt serial.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125133488.jpg
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Stock "HZa" marking picture 1.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125135397.jpg
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Stock "HZa" marking picture 2.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125135537.jpg
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Very, very interesting, thanks!
A few questions: does the barrel bear some wrench marks from when it was rebored to 7.9mm? All the three HK conversions I saw so far have such marks.
Are there traces of red paint on the barrel, under the the wood? The M41 conversion I saw has such paint traces.
Is there a wood filler in the magazine well for conversion to single shot?
Has the extractor profile (front edge) been slighly filed down to allow it to slip over a case rim manually chambered? It may be hard to see, but if you put a regular bolt on the side of the converted one, you may notice a difference. Also, you can just try to (safely) chamber a round (dummy, or without the firing pin assembly).
Congratulations again for the interesting find.
DMala
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Very interesting! The HzA marking almost looks like a WaA Jt3!
Prez1981
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DMala, No wrench marks visible on the barrel or receiver, I haven't had a chance to disassemble the rifle yet so I don't know what it looks like under the wood.. Will check it out and post my findings. Rifle has wood magazine well block, forgot to take a photo, will also post this.
The bolt face is altered but the extractor doesn't have to be modified as the wood block in the magazine well holds the cartridge in the correct location so it will feed like it would if it was being feed from a clip. I haven't tried a round in this rifle, but my M38 short rifle with the wooden magazine block feeds fine.
Prez1981, The HZa/WaA marking in the stock looks different all the time when held at different angles and light. It actually shows up better in the photo than in person.
Franchi
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David thats a nice rifle, congrats. Have you found any headspace issues on the HK conversions?
airdale
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Ok, took the rifle apart, no wrench markings, no red paint, no other German markings. Took pictures of the bolt face, and wooden magazine insert, see photo links.
These wood insert blocks are usually lost when the rifles are taken apart for cleaning or they are removed by their new "G.I.'" owners trying to change them from single shot rifles to repeaters.
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The wood insert is about 3 1/16" long, 9/6" tall, and 9/16" wide. It is notched/carved to fit into the receiver and stock and has two steel 1/16" dia. x 5/8" long pins through the side. The original Carcano magazine cartridge lifter/follower pushes up on the bottom of the wood insert and the two pins keep it from going up into the receiver to far. With this wood insert in place the cartridge will feed correctly into the chamber.
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airdale, I have never shot any of my German "HK" rifles, but the heaspace should be ok.
They would be safer to shoot than the Italian made 8mm models as the Germans didn't notch the front of the receiver like the Italians did
David Franchi
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Receiver with bolt open showing wood insert http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373631.jpg
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Cartridge in receiver.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373632.jpg
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Cartridge feeding into chamber.
http://pic12picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373633.jpg
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Bolt face.
http://pic12picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373635.jpg
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Bolt with cartridge.
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373634jpg
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Side view of wood magazine insert in place. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373636.jpg
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Bottom view of wood magazine insert in place. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373638.jpg
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Side view of wood insert removed from receiver. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373639.jpg
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Top view of wood insert removed from receiver. http://pic12.picturetrailcom/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373640.jpg
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End view of wood insert removed from receiver. http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL439/2051017/9037556/125373641.jpg
Franchi
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Excellent photo's and presentation, thanks for taking the time to post this.
airdale
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I also posted a link to this post on Tuco's K-98 Forum. There is some additional info. & comments there.
David Franchi
LINK to K-98 post.
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=142907
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I have checked the headspace with a "field no-go" 7.9mm gauge in two or three HK conversions, no problems. I also shot 2-3 rounds in one HK conversion (cav. carbine) just prior to trading it for something else, a very slight hairline crack appeared at the tang and I stopped there. Recoil was strong as I remember it. I did it, I am satisfied, I will never do it again .....
DMala
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Good to hear, I will shoot mine on of these days. I did shoot one of my Italian 8mm TS rifles quite a few years ago with surplus Egyptian ammo. Very large muzzle flash and report, everyone wanted to know what I was shooting. I now know it is not safe to shoot the Italian with Military loaded 8mm because of the "notched" receiver.. Won't do that again.
You should have traded your HK to me.
Franchi
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I used commercial, US-made 8mm ammo, but still the hairline crack developed. Just FYI.
DMala
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I have a Ty 38 Carcano short rifle originally manufactured in 1941 similarly converted by Krieghoff. A number of pictures are attached to show what was done (and not done) to this one, which I picked up at a gun show 30 years ago. My conversion seems to be less extensive than yours: the stock was not renumbered or HzA marked, and the fixed rear sight was not touched. My bolt is similarly electric pencil etched with the Krieghoff serial #, although it is very light compared to yours and hard to see because of because of the bolt body’s brown patina. I recall that I took the gun down when I first got it, but there were no other marks underneath related to the conversion. I’m not that much into Carcanos, so I don’t have any references to the details of the Krieghoff conversions. I’m wondering if they were done mostly to your model or to both yours and mine?
Sam
(See Sam's Download Attachments at bottom of thread 10/3/07)
ncsammy
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ncsammy, Your Model 38 short rifle is correct, the "HK" serial was not added to the stock all the time. I do find it unusual the Germans didn't mark out the original stock serial and the cal 7.35 markings.
The Germans altered the sight picture by just installing a taller front sight blade on your rifle. Does yours still have the wood block in the magazine well?
Is your rifle # H6782?
Did you get any "bring back" or capture history on your rifle?
By serials reported "HK" produced approx. 3000 7,9mm conversions of the Italian M38 short rifle, M41 long rifle, and M38 carbine. (about 1000 of each)
approx. serial number ranges are:
H6000 to H7000 for the M38 short rifle.
H7000 to H8000 for the M41.
H8000 to H9600? for the cavalry carbine.
No TS carbines have been observed.
Franchi
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ncsammy, your piece is very interesting. The other HK conversion of a short rifle that is in my records also shows a non-matching stock.
The double recoil lug is most unusual, maybe they positioned it wrong at first and then added a second one?
Could you please clarify:
- Is the HK number H6782?
- What is the original Italian date and number on the barrel?
- Is the rear sight marked 6,5 or 7,35 mm?
Thanks for sharing information on your piece
DMala
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Hello David and DMala,
Thanks for your comments and information. To answer your questions:
The Krieghoff serial number is H 6782;
There is no wood block in the magazine well;
The guy who sold me the rifle had no bringback papers or other info on the rifle;
The date on the barrel is 1941;
The original Italian serial number on the barrel looks like Bk 6788 (although I’m not sure about the 6)
The stock has only one reinforcing lug. My picture shows both sides of the single lug (the right side of the lug is from another picture that is superimposed on the picture of the left side);
The rear sight is marked 6.5.
Once again, I do appreciate your help.
Sam
ncsammy
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Very intresting rifles. What is the value of these
Arisaka fan
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DMala, I have three "HK" M38 short rifles and one cavalry carbine reported with mis-matched stocks, apparently the Germans didn't worry about matching up the stocks when converting them.
Arisaka Fan, value? I paid, within the last year, $135 for the M41, and $225 for a M38 short rifle. Bought one at a gun store and one at a gun show, both sellers didn't know what they had. Expect to pay $350 to $500 for a nice example from someone who knows what they have. I have been lucky finding mine
Franchi
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Very interesting indeed.
mow.
mowzerluvr
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Great presentation. I learned something...Thanks, Arditi
Arditi
