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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all, Just new here and I'll be trying to pick your brains for detailed rifle and scope info from time to time. I have an M1A mated to a M14 E2 pistol grip stock with a springfield counter sniper scope. although I,ve served in the military for 21 years I never had the opportunity to engage tagets with a scoped weapon. presently My M1A is zeroed for 100 yrds, but Im a bit fuzzy on adjusting the moa for longer distances. I've never had formal Sniper training, yet I'm most eager to learn the ropes.
 

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Welcome to the Boards. Lots of great people and good information. Scope adjustments are typically calibrated for 100 yards and are in increments of 1/8" or 1/4" per click. For distances beyond 100 yards, you just multiply the adjustment factor by the same multiple of 100 yards. For example: assume your scope has a 1/4" MOA adjustment per click at 100 yards and you want to make a one inch adjustment when shooting at 200 yards. Instead of adjusting 4 clicks like you would for 100 yard distances, you would only adjust 2 clicks i.e. 200/100 = 2; 1/4" x 2 = 1/2" per click at 200 yards. Similarly, a 1 inch adjustment at 400 yards would be 400/100 = 4; 1/4" x 4 = 1" per click at 400 yards. The better the scope the more accurate the adjustment and obviously wind and temperature come into play much more considerably when you start pushing out your distances...
 

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Somewhere on the net I found MOA/MOA info. and MOA/MIL and MIL/MIL. I printed it out and it's in one of my books. If you google MOA adjustment you will find a PDF tutorial that totally clues you in. I read it and it was invaluable but it's been such a forced habit I can do it but not explain. The hardest part was MOA/MIL for me.
 

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brian,
post where you are located at, theres probably a member close than can help you, if you in eastern PA, ill teach you. me, my son and cousin compete in long range sniper competitions
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
brian,
post where you are located at, theres probably a member close than can help you, if you in eastern PA, ill teach you. me, my son and cousin compete in long range sniper competitions

I live in Wooster Ohio, whitch is located about 30 miles west of Canton. The near by range here is limited to 100 yds. The only range I'm aware of with rages out to 1000yds is Camp Perry, about a 2 hour drive north west of me. I would quaulify annually there when I was in the Ohio Natiional Guard. and I'm not sure if the casual shooter can just show up to shoot, there would certainly be liability and range control issues with that prospect. AS I have a Springfield Armory M1A, it certainly has the potential to be a fair 1000yrd shooter. I have a Springfield counter sniper scope mounted. it has a rather uniqe range finding reticle that utilizes sets of brackets set at the various ranges that presumably a taget's head and shoulders fit to that determins the range. I'm just not sure if it works like the shepard scope where you place the appopriate fitting bracket on your taget and engage or if it is solely a range finding tool and you must then make your range adjustments and use the standard crosshairs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Welcome to the Boards. Lots of great people and good information. Scope adjustments are typically calibrated for 100 yards and are in increments of 1/8" or 1/4" per click. For distances beyond 100 yards, you just multiply the adjustment factor by the same multiple of 100 yards. For example: assume your scope has a 1/4" MOA adjustment per click at 100 yards and you want to make a one inch adjustment when shooting at 200 yards. Instead of adjusting 4 clicks like you would for 100 yard distances, you would only adjust 2 clicks i.e. 200/100 = 2; 1/4" x 2 = 1/2" per click at 200 yards. Similarly, a 1 inch adjustment at 400 yards would be 400/100 = 4; 1/4" x 4 = 1" per click at 400 yards. The better the scope the more accurate the adjustment and obviously wind and temperature come into play much more considerably when you start pushing out your distances...
Thats a good tip, thanks. Somewhere around this place I have John Palaster's book "The ultimate Sniper". It,s been quite a wile since I've read it. the information there desrcribe the variables for wind and temperature issues. and making allowances with a mil dot scope. the counter sniper scope I have does not have mil dots, so such adjustments would be difficult. I'll have to perhaps devise an alternate method for dealing with such variables.
 

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too bad your too far away (over 8 hrs), im in eastern PA, along the delaware river, so we will help you online as much as possible with your questions. my cousin's buddy has a farm and we can shoot out to 850 yards on the one side and close to 1000 the other way.

with your scope, you should only judge distance with the brackets, as every ammo will not hit the same spot because of different ammo velocitys, temp, humidity,and if you not using the exact ammo and lot the brackets were graduated for, you will miss, most 308's become subsonic about 850 yards, so you would have to use 155g bullets to get to 1000 supersonic.

do you reload?you should if you want to shoot to 1000yards with any consistancy, as you have to tailor the load specs to your gun. a small change like using a different manufactor primer will change velocity up to 100fps slower or faster, which will affect the drop at distance (heres an example, i tried a federal case with the same load as the one i use with remington cases, it dropped the velocity 150fps, i also tried a federal primer instead of the cci 200's i use and it dropped 50fps)if you do, ill look up the m1a loads i have and post them

John Plaster's book has a fair amount of wrong info and data they havent bothered to fix from the first volume thru the last one, so it should be taken with a grain of salt, but it has good basic info for starting shooters

to do long range shooting on odd sized targets at unknown distances you need a mildot scope to range distance and use holdovers accurately, the springfield scope with the brackets is good for engaging human sized targets , but not much of anything else, as it doesnt have alot of magnification power or a fixed scale to judge size and figure out distance. the guys i have shot against that used them missed alot of shots because they couldnt figure out the distance accurately enough for odd sized targets(2",3",5" etc).try to estimate distance on a 3" plate at 400 yards and you will see what i mean. also the lower magnification is fine for putting a hit on a human sized target, but try it on a 4" steel plate at 600 yards, the crosshair on 14x will almost cover the whole target

check out mildot.com and shooterready.com they will give you a basic understanding of using mildot scopes. your scope should also have target turrets(see pic below), so after you have a dope sheet worked up(Data On Previous Engagements) for any distance you might shoot, you can precisely adjust to any distance your gonna be shooting at. you should record your scope settings and holdovers for any distance you might shoot (i have dope for scope settings and holdovers for 100 to 800 in 25 yard incruments)

check out snipershide.com, there is alot of valuable info there about long range shooting.

as far as ranges with a fair distance, check out reade range(readerange.org), its by state collage PA, so it should be around 3hrs from you, they have a 1000yard range

to check out how good your scope is,after the scope is sighted in, we do the box test, put your gun in a gunvice, start by taking a shot, adjust your scope right 2" (8 or 16 clicks depending on what the adjustment incriments are)take a second shot(should be 2" right of first)adjust your scope 2" up, take a shot, (should be 2" higher than 2nd shot) adjust your scope 2" left, take a shot, and then finally adjust your scope 2" down and take a shot. the last shot should be in the first shots hole. measure the squareness of the group, if the scope tracks true, it will be square, if not you will have a hard time shooting repeatable results





this is one of the ones i use in sniper competitions, a rem 700 sps 26" 308 match chambered, with shilen trigger, ultimate sniper stock, nikon 6-18x40 buckmaster gold mildot and yankee hill manufacturing muzzle break . im using 168g and 175g sierra match kings in remington brass, cci primers and varget powder, im pushing 2750fps at the muzzle
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
It would appear that I will need to purchase a good mill dot scope then, my current scope has no mil dots or turet knobs just protective caps over the adjustments. I do like however the range finding abilities of the springfield scope. I do have a sniper data book and an optical range finder. I would prefer to have a laser range finder but that will have to wait until I can afford one. I still need to aquire a good spoting scope as well. I have a cheep bench vise, but I'm not satisfied with it and plan to upgrade to a better one. the vise I have will jump about when the rifle is fired and cant be reliable. So a few more gadgets and should be set to begin experimenting.
 

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i was adding some info while you posted, so reread to see what i added. did you try laying a sandbag or shot bag across the rest? the digital rangefinders can be gotten for as little as $150 for a bushnell 450 scope, its kinda ugly but it gets the job done, (my uncle has one) in most of my competitions, i cant use a rangefinder, so you have to have a mildot to judge the distance. another thing that will help alot is a caldwell wind wizard,it $30 at most places , it reads wind speed and temperature. what scope mount do you have? cabelas has the nikon 4-14x40 buckmaster gold (my 18x must've been discontinued)for $299 and you can get away with a barska or nc star 20-60x spotter (about $100) for out to 800 yards for hits on steel
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
i was adding some info while you posted, so reread to see what i added. did you try laying a sandbag or shot bag across the rest? the digital rangefinders can be gotten for as little as $150 for a bushnell 450 scope, its kinda ugly but it gets the job done, (my uncle has one) in most of my competitions, i cant use a rangefinder, so you have to have a mildot to judge the distance. another thing that will help alot is a caldwell wind wizard,it $30 at most places , it reads wind speed and temperature. what scope mount do you have? cabelas has the nikon 4-14x40 buckmaster gold (my 18x must've been discontinued)for $299 and you can get away with a barska or nc star 20-60x spotter (about $100) for out to 800 yards for hits on steel
The bench vise I have has a 3 point foot print basically just three adjusable legs. there really is'nt anywhere for me to anchor the vise with a sandbag as you suggest. I don't believe it was meant as a shooting vise but rather as one to work on guns and perhaps bore sighting and thats about it. I have a superb scope mount from springfield that uses a mounting block that replaces the standard striper clip block and uses two heafty mounting screws and incorporates a weaver style rail. I will try to upload some pictures shortly. presently with the economy in this terible shape my income prospects are bleak for the time being. so for now until I am able to aquire the gadgets I need I'm left to make do with what I have for now. As a former soldier man size targets are most common for me. but the 3" or 4" grouping at or beyond 600 yds is what wish to strive for. I realize this is not an inexpensive hobby. and a great deal of trial and error will be involved. I have at one time considered reloading my own. but there again the expense is not justified right now. I was considering eventually getting a blue press for reloading. what would you recomend? also what is your opinion of bushnell's laser range finding rifle scope? I believe it's available in a mil dot reticle.



 

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I think there is one thing to consider.............. theres a big difference between being a very good shot and a sniper. I have known guys who could shoot some incredible groups at distance but couldn't sneak up on a corpse ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I think there is one thing to consider.............. theres a big difference between being a very good shot and a sniper. I have known guys who could shoot some incredible groups at distance but couldn't sneak up on a corpse ;)
You're right there, great marksmanship is not the end all be all of the sniper trade. field craft and stalking techniques are esential too. As for me, my 21 years in the military has tought me a great deal with regard to field craft and stalking, now I need to focus intensely on the marksmanship aspect. I sledom had an opportunity to engage targets with scoped weapons.
 

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I never had the opportunity to engage with scoped weaps, either. Knives work great. haha Anyway, Try starting out with a single stage press for your reloading efforts. It can be a money saver and provides more uniformity in your ammo. Even a Lee single stage can do a great job of getting you started out, and is fine for tailor making your rounds. I use a single stage for all of my precision-type round loading, anyway. I sold off my progressive years ago, as I simply wasn't really needing it. In handloading, it's the procedure and attention to detail that makes good rounds. QUALITY CONTROL! Quality equipment is important, but your procedural habits are critical.
 

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i have one of those vices too back when i started you can lay a sock full of snad or a lead shot bag across between the uprights.

the springfield mount works ggod, i know some of the offbrands dont work so well and loosen up after a few shots.

i have 3 reloading presses not including my shotgun ones, i have a dillon 550, a lyman spar t, and a lyman tmag, both of the later are turret presses with 6 holes each, so you can have 2 sets of 3 pc dies in the holder at all time.all are good machines, the dillon is cabpable of loading match quality ammo with a little work. David Tubb loads his ammo on a dillon. me i prefer to load mine on my tmag press so i can feel if theres a problem(primer went in too easy, bullet seated too easy or hard, etc)

i have looked at the bushnell scope, it has a programable load drop data program, so when you know what your load drops at distance, you can program in the drop at certain distamces and when you range a target, it will show the distance in the upper corner and it will light up a red dot in the crosshair, that is your aiming point
 

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..........;)..........

You don't need a mil-dot if you know ranging.



What or how do you think it was done for the 100 years before the mil-dot.

....MJ...
 

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i said i use a mildot because in my competitions, i cant use a range finder and my targets are at unknown odd distances, so it makes you know your DOPE and he doesnt have a rangefinder and only has a springfield armory man bracket scope. learning to range by eye just wastes alot of ammo untill you get it right (cash that could be used toward something that will make it reliably repeatable). i offered him options and he can decide what he wants to do, he already spent that much on his stick and it would be cash well instead of guesstimating if he is serious about long range shooting
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks for that info on tusco range, I've checked out the web page and it seems quite impressive, however though I found a membeship fee for a family rate but not for an individual. additionally it's a bit pricey for me at this point in time. until my cash flow improves, a tusco mebership will have to wait a bit. the range does fit the bill though for a long distance range in realatively close proximity to me.
 

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Aw heck!

I think you'll love the E2 stock setup. I put one on mine about twenty years ago when the stock without metal was $25. Saved money by cutting off stock and sticking on recoil pad. SA 2d gen mount, Shepherd autorangefinder. Used it as varmiter. Replaced in use by DPMS Lr308. Still a lot of fun to shoot. I've since stripped off the problematic mount and shoot it iron sighted.
 

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