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Does anyone have any experience using H380 powder with loads for the M! Garand? I would appreciate it if you could share any experiences you have with this specific powder.
M1 Garand loads and H380 powder?
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Vietnam was a long time ago, a few things have changed since then. Take a current production Lake City M855 or M193 5.56 cartridge and pull the bullet out, then spill out the powder... bet you a six pack it's ball powder, probably WC844.
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Absolutely true.
The ball powder "problem" was due to incompetence of Army leadership and the DoD civilians who made changes in the specs of the M16's ammunition without performing any testing to determine what the consequences of those changes would be in a new and unproven weapon.
The "problem" was easily solved once somebody in the Ordnance department turned their brain on. That, and when the Army started issuing cleaning rods to troops fighting in the jungle......:angry:
I've sent an email to Hodgdon Powder Company....I'll share their reply here once I get it.
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I know of one shooter who used H380 in a Garand despite warnings from members of our gun club and ended up ruining his op rod .Only a really stupid person would do this .
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Are you sure it was the powder and not the weight of the bullet? I've used H380, 36 gr behind the 311466 and 311291, sized .309 for years with no problems.
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Speer has no problems listing H380 as a suitable powder in gas guns......
Directly from my Speer #13 manual , Notation with asterisk in side bar Quote(This propellant recommended for gas operated match rifles) Several powders along with H380 are listed with the 168 gr match bullet
30-06 168 gr BTHP, OAL 3.295
H380 Data
start 51.0 grs Vel. 2454
Max. 55.0 grs Vel. 2736
I read and hear it all the time "if you use anything but 4895 youll ruin your op rod" Horse Hockey!
Directly from my Speer #13 manual , Notation with asterisk in side bar Quote(This propellant recommended for gas operated match rifles) Several powders along with H380 are listed with the 168 gr match bullet
30-06 168 gr BTHP, OAL 3.295
H380 Data
start 51.0 grs Vel. 2454
Max. 55.0 grs Vel. 2736
I read and hear it all the time "if you use anything but 4895 youll ruin your op rod" Horse Hockey!
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Sorry. The powder was not the problem. As Shoobedoo correctly stated they are still using it today.
So far the replies to your post have been kind. I hope they stay that way.
Motor
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Still no reply from Hodgdon Powder. I hear it may take a week or two.
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Umm, yeah there was a problem with early lots of ball propellant loaded ammo in 5.56 (which was developed with an IMR propellant - but it was too expensive for mass production, so DoD bought Winchester ball propellant). Also problems with stick powder loaded ammo in production lots. Problem was somewhat complex but (as far as pressure and operation ws concerned) cured with some changes in propellant chemistry and detterent coatings.
Then it was discovered that the ammo that provided proper pressure and pressure curves was seriously crudding up the gas system and bolt in the improperly designed rifles (direct impingement gas system). Futher changes in the propellants AND cleaning doctrine "cured" the difficulty, but the gas system remains a weakness in the Matty Mattel. I never have liked them, not when I first encountered the things in RVN or afterwards and since.
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As noted, it was a complex problem involving multiple entities including the US Army, Air Force, DoD, Congress, and the powder manufacturers, all with competing interests and agendas. For anyone who wants to read about the great propellant controversy, I've linked an article that covers it pretty well. The fouling problems were found to be the result of a too high concentration of Calcium Carbonate in certain lots of WC846 ball propellant, subsequently, the powder was divided in to lots with a lower percentage of Calcium Carbonate for use in 5.56 cartridges and designated WC844, and lots with higher percentages for use 7.62 cartridges designated WC846. Both are still in use today to the best of my knowledge.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556prop.html
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I read the whole spill about the powders a while back. WC-844 did produce less fouling than WC-846 in laboratory tests but when actually tested in the weapons the results were inconclusive.
The #1 reason early M16's failed was the lack of hard chrome lined chambers and lack of cleaning training. The manufacturer warned them about leaving the chambers unchromed but it fell on death ears.
Motor
The #1 reason early M16's failed was the lack of hard chrome lined chambers and lack of cleaning training. The manufacturer warned them about leaving the chambers unchromed but it fell on death ears.
Motor
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Piston guns like the Garand are not at all as sensitive to the powder "type" as are direct gas systems like the M16.
All gas guns are somewhat sensitive to gas port pressure and this is why the relative burning rate of the powder needs to be kept in mind when making up your reloads.
All gas guns are somewhat sensitive to gas port pressure and this is why the relative burning rate of the powder needs to be kept in mind when making up your reloads.
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No I haven't loaded H-380 for M1 Garand. However:
Hornady 8th Edition has a M1 Garand separate section. Here is a quote from it.
" In testing we achieved our best performance with VIHT N-150 powder. Good results were also obtained with VIHT N-140 and H-4895."
This manual does not list H-380 data. However.
Here is some prospective:
H-4895 is #64 on my latest burn rate chart. (data listed with 168gr bullet)
VIHT N-140 is #73 (data listed with 168gr bullet)
Win 748 is #75 (A Ball Powder) (data listed with 168gr bullet)
BL-C2 is #76 (A Ball Powder) (data listed with 168gr bullet)
VIHT N-150 is #80 (data listed with 168gr bullet)
I could go on. There are several more powders listed within that range and between #72 an #80 there are 6 powders listed for use with the 168gr bullet.
H-380 is #77 !!!
Combine this with the information provided by RU Shooter in post #7 and it seems to me there is enough info here to highly suggest H-380 is a suitable powder for the M1 Garand. JMHO of course.
Motor
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I really appreciate the research, motor!
Those slackers at Hodgdon still haven't replied to my email, BTW.
Those slackers at Hodgdon still haven't replied to my email, BTW.
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