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Let me state up front, I plant my a** on the 1000 yd line every week, I don't waste barrel life or components on shorter distances and its by choice. Choice driven by challenge and the fact 100 to 800 is too easy and I am totally on a steep learning curve at 1000 yds. I have not performed to my satisfaction at 1000 yds and I've learned a few things I'll comment on, you may disagree and good luck to you.

308 Win is on life support at 1000 yds with a 24" barrel, no matter what magic ammo you stuff into it. You need velocity to push a 175 gr BTHP and a 24" barrel won't do it, maybe a 26" will do better, that is my next barrel. Transonic is the region where bullets transitions from supersonic, through sonic to subsonic velocities. Long bullets with boat-tails that perform well at supersonic velocities can suffer from accuracy problems as the bullet destabilizes Want accuracy problems , use a 308 with 24" barrel and it may be problematic with 26" barrel. Those liking 308 shoot at large steel targets, not .6 or .8 MOA targets on 1000 yds lines. Hitting steel is not always "Precision" accuracy but the shooter defines what accuracy is to him so angle of milk jug or angle of VW bug...define your accuracy. For me I want to shoot .6 to .8 MOA targets . IE: 6 inch diameter disc or 8 inch diameter disc from 1000 yd line. In my opinion after a ton of effort and money, 308 Win is not a wise choice . I may not even rebarrel to 26", just get rid of my 308 precision rifle altogether, its on my S*it List.

6.5 Creedmoor. Oh yeah, drank that Kool Aid and my rifle has a 26" barrel (you know why its not 24 inch...I'm not in favor or repeating mistakes). The only 6.5 Creedmoor rifles I see that bring in the bacon at 1000 yds are those that are either Accuracy International platforms or custom built rifles. Factory 6.5 Rifles are not a sure thing and require a lot of tweeking. Right now, I am debating selling off my 6.5 Creedmoor or smashing it. Its accuracy is lights out at 800 yds and its not consistent accuracy at 1000 yds for .6 or .8 MOA targets. Its got the velocity, its just not the wonder sex kitten the gun hype makes it to be. Now...dropping men at 1000 yds with 6.5 Creedmoor would be too easy but finite accuracy , I am moving 6.5 Creedmoor to the rear view mirror and I'll replace it with 6.5x55 Swede caliber in a 700 Rem Long action in AICS chassis.

Forgot to mention , both my 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor are in KRG chassis and both had to be glass bedded into those chassis to force best accuracy performance. All "V" bedding is not perfection. Not happy I had to glass bed but it did improve performance on both rifles.

Now , after flushing money away with the Hot Sh*T Short Action calibers , I decided to go to 3006 caliber , Remington 700 with 26" Heavy barrel ( see the trend..no 24" stupidity any more) and dropped it into a Accuracy International 1.5 chassis along with Jewel trigger. It was like lightning struck....I am on the .6 and .8 disc targets on a sustained basis, the 175 gr / 178 gr BTHP are not transonic and the new rifle is shooting amazingly. No alibi needed for the AICS chassis, they are rigid and hold the barreled action vice tight, truly free floated barrel and the ergonomics of the stock design allow you to lay truly flat and stable on the ground and crank out optimum performance. Finally a rifle that masters 1000 yds but I don't have a muzzle brake on it yet , and the rifle is beating me to death after 20 rds.

I have Little Bastard brakes on the 308 and 6.5 and it a wonderfully effective (but too costly) brake. I will install a Little Bastard brake on the AICS chassis 3006 Rem 700 rifle asap.

That 6.5x55 Swede caliber build on the horizon will be dropped into a AICS chassis. Accuracy International has a winner in its chassis designs and I'm through chasing any other chassis makers products.

The best shots at our 1000 yd line are doing it with Accuracy International rifles and many shoot the 1 mile event often. AICS products are expensive but they don't underperform. I can't afford their rifles but if you can and need a proven track record precision rifle maker, AICS is the hot ticket but not in 308 Win. AICS 6.5 Creedmoor rifles are amazingly accurate by the way.
 

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interesting hands on analyst....
your opinion of 300 magnum,
Speer federal168 bthp match / target attributes....
loads for> 308 ssg P2 unfired as of yet..
did you experience usages Speers bthp165's?
 

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I'm a 6.5x55 Swede freak, as "Milprileb" well knows. In addition to the classic M96 and M38, I also shoot the CG63 target rifle and the Ljungman AG42b - Sweden's take on the Tokarev. I later added a CZ 550 and a SAKO 85.
I think the only traction 6.5 Creedmoor has is its case which fits medium length actions. A 6.5x55 loaded with a decent 140 gr bullet has a COAL not much shorter than 30-06 for the M1 Garand. And this is why I also shoot a Garand with the Criterion 6.5x55 barrel.

Looking forward to "Milprileb's" 1000 yd range reports. My club range only goes to 300 yds, so I have to enjoy the 6.5x55 at longer ranges vicariously.
 

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Excellent, informative post! I’m fascinated by accurate rifles, especially long range rifles. I enjoy your hands-on reports even though I invariably end-up feeling disgusted with myself for not getting to the range and trying to live the life I’d like to lead. 🙁
 
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Yes...a good statement of purpose and attitude.

I have a "*******" cousin out west who shoots 30-06 exclusively out of a Remington 700; with a muzzle break. I'm not sure about barrel length but he won't take a shot that he knows he can't achieve...he's a hunter and will not wound game. 200 yards is his limit.

Occasionally we have discussions concerning different options with calibers, handloading and barrel length but he will never vary from his "knowns" and GOOD FOR HIM. You really can't argue with 30-06...he hunts deer and larger game only.

I would never compare shooting sports to golf except what's in your "golf bag" as a shooter.

"I think I'll need a #9 iron for this shot."

1000 yards (meters) is a LONG shot...I imagine one must use telescopic sights to have any hope of achieving acceptable results; as this is extreme limit shooting. One needs the right weapons system for the demands.

And, I guess, that's what I'm talking about. I had, from an early age, acquaintance and experience with numerous options and came to see each rifle, and cartridge choice, as an opportunity for success and failure. When I had a certain rifle in my hands...I became part of a a weapons system...with certain capabilities. I felt it was always my responsibility to own success by experiencing the inherent failures.

My "golf bag" had a Savage Model 24 ( .22 over 20 gauge), a Marlin 49A lever action .22, one of the sweet 7mm Spanish Oviedo saddle ring carbines, a BSA medium action Viscount Hunter in 7 x 57mm, a 1944 Savage No.4 Mk.I that had never been out of cosmoline and, lastly, an M41 Swede with the AGA m/44 scope that I never shot. So, I had a little bit of everything...but we also had Springfield '03's and Savage 99"s in .300 Savage...Mausers in rifle and pistol variants and the old Remington Model 600 in .350 Rem Magnum. But I never shot anything with a scope on it.

If I ever take the Swede out...I'd probably look to 3-500 yards, TOPS...and thank God nobody was shooting back at me!!

Miliprileb has a great syllabus and I hope he keeps us up to date on his efforts. I think the great thing is that younger kids, just coming up, can benefit from all this if they pay attention.
 

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1000 yards (meters) is a LONG shot...I imagine one must use telescopic sights to have any hope of achieving acceptable results; as this is extreme limit shooting. One needs the right weapons system for the demands.
Actually I grew up "popping the black" with an iron sighted rifle, out to 1,20 yds, as did many of my contemporaries!
 

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Yes...a good statement of purpose and attitude.

I have a "***" cousin out west who shoots 30-06 exclusively out of a Remington 700; with a muzzle break. I'm not sure about barrel length but he won't take a shot that he knows he can't achieve...he's a hunter and will not wound game. 200 yards is his limit.

Occasionally we have discussions concerning different options with calibers, handloading and barrel length but he will never vary from his "knowns" and GOOD FOR HIM. You really can't argue with 30-06...he hunts deer and larger game only.

I would never compare shooting sports to golf except what's in your "golf bag" as a shooter.

"I think I'll need a #9 iron for this shot."

1000 yards (meters) is a LONG shot...I imagine one must use telescopic sights to have any hope of achieving acceptable results; as this is extreme limit shooting. One needs the right weapons system for the demands.

And, I guess, that's what I'm talking about. I had, from an early age, acquaintance and experience with numerous options and came to see each rifle, and cartridge choice, as an opportunity for success and failure. When I had a certain rifle in my hands...I became part of a a weapons system...with certain capabilities. I felt it was always my responsibility to own success by experiencing the inherent failures.

My "golf bag" had a Savage Model 24 ( .22 over 20 gauge), a Marlin 49A lever action .22, one of the sweet 7mm Spanish Oviedo saddle ring carbines, a BSA medium action Viscount Hunter in 7 x 57mm, a 1944 Savage No.4 Mk.I that had never been out of cosmoline and, lastly, an M41 Swede with the AGA m/44 scope that I never shot. So, I had a little bit of everything...but we also had Springfield '03's and Savage 99"s in .300 Savage...Mausers in rifle and pistol variants and the old Remington Model 600 in .350 Rem Magnum. But I never shot anything with a scope on it.

If I ever take the Swede out...I'd probably look to 3-500 yards, TOPS...and thank God nobody was shooting back at me!!

Miliprileb has a great syllabus and I hope he keeps us up to date on his efforts. I think the great thing is that younger kids, just coming up, can benefit from all this if they pay attention.
Grand son…no scopes till 15…all iron sights.. cinder block 200 yards accurate Russian bolt,
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Two follow ups here:

1000 yds is not a long shot, if you have access to a range that has distance, you find how quickly you move 100 to 800 yds with darn good accuracy and then find 1000 yd line is a huge leap in challenges...mirage, winds, ballistics, your holding steady etc etc. All variables drop like a nuke at 1000 yds. Variables that don't skew accuracy too much at 800 yds derail you at 1000 yds. Its fun to 800, its work and steep learning curve at 1000 yds.

6.5x55 Swede caliber is a no BS, long standing , accurate caliber for long range shooting. The 6.5 ballistics is too good to ignore and my choice of next build is 6.5 Swede or 6.5/3006. Both are old calibers off the radar today but once again...larger case capacity means more velocity and brings in accuracy at 1000 yds. So does 270 Winchester by the way but 270 has limited bullet selections so that is in the rear view mirror. There is a new surge of 6mm calibers for PRS and long range shooting but I'm not drinking anymore of "new" calibers when I know 6.5 Swede or 6.5/3006 do in fact bring in the bacon. I'm off short action and back with long action rifles with calibers that flat work. Work for the task I have framed...shooting .6 and .8 MOA disc at 1000 yds. and once again, yeah I got a 6.5 Creedmoor but its not bringing home the bacon in accuracy I want and to be blunt, the old 25/06 caliber is legendary (if one looks at history) for accuracy at any dang distance but of course its not "New" but the few guys who show up with this caliber on 1000 yd line just stomp on accuracy. Again 25/06 has a large case capacity so high velocity...using the 3006 case as does 270 as does 6.5/3006. Hmmm...case capacity wake up call !

My comments are not meant to be that of a OLD STICK IN THE MUD, not accepting new calibers and short action rifle solutions which are the norm / future today. I drank that Kool Aid, I got short action 308 Win and short action 6.5 Creedmoor rifles but Ladies and Gents, they don't perform like my 3006 does for accuracy. Results count, not what is Kool and popular. I don't like the performance of 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor and consider both over rated and they don't do what I need to be done. I've gone back to last centuries two no BS, no kidding , seriously accurate calibers ...3006 and 6.5 Swede and I am going to use hammers that do what hammers need to do and have success hammering.

Fire up the time machine, I've gone back to the last century for calibers. And by the way Sniper Forum shooters, most of your rifles are using last centuries calibers and you well know those old calibers are no slouches for accuracy or effectiveness.
 

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Milprileb: going a bit OT, but did you give any consideration to 7x57? IMHO 7x57 is the best Mauser cartridge. (6.5x55 is not an original Paul Mauser cartridge. 6.5x55 was the result of a joint Norwegian-Swedish commission's research. It is one of those rare instances when a committee makes the right decision.)
Of all the major European militaries, only Spain and Serbia saw the advantages of 7x57. Of course, 7x57 had wider acceptance in South America. I suspect that this fine cartridge's reputation and recognition were clouded by the perception that only minor powers went for it.
 

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I am also excited to read about the 6.5 Swedish results at 1000 yards. I am personally more likely to attempt that distance with either .30-06 or 7.62x54r just due to the rifles I currently own but I do enjoy iron sight shooting with Swedes generally.
 

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I am also excited to read about the 6.5 Swedish results at 1000 yards. I am personally more likely to attempt that distance with either .30-06 or 7.62x54r just due to the rifles I currently own but I do enjoy iron sight shooting with Swedes generally.
Antiquity has caught up with me and iron sights are getting to be more challenging. Thanks to the excellent BadAce NDT scope mounts, I can continue to shoot my Swedes with gratifying results.
 

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1000yds is cute, but shooting at 1 mile or 1760 yards, at IPSC size targets, really makes it interesting for me...Now, to be clear, I roll with 338 Lapua at that distance. No regrets other than cost of ammo.
At 1000 yds I'm perfectly happy with 300win mag. Round has enough juice to be very consistent at that distance.

Now all bragging and joking aside. I would highly recommend to get wind call game on point first before dumping money on custom rigs and ammo and getting frustrated with poor results...this could be accomplished with something as simple as 22LR rifle and scope setup which will allow you to shoot up to at least 300yds. You will learn quickly and cheaply (vs big boys rounds ammo cost) what even light wind can do and how it moves rounds around. This type of shooting will make you much better at recognizing wind patterns and etc. Also, it's easier to find 300yds range than 1000yds or 1 mile range...
Once you got that knockout and if you feel comfortable with wind calls, then I would start diving into the new shooting rigs and ammo...

If you don't want to go with 22LR, you can still get tons of feedback on wind calls from the 308, 303 British or 7.62x54r or etc cartridges at the extended ranges. Past 500yds wind really starts moving them all around. Good learning, but it will be more expensive vs 22LR ammo...just saying.

@3006 - I have huge respect for that caliber. I'm not sure why people kind of kick it to the side in recent years. Good rifle with that round can deliver very desirable results as @milprileb saying.
 

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I fully agree that a good .22 rifle can make shooting at 200 yds or more both enjoyable and educational. I shoot my CZ452 Trainer at 200 yds, the max range I can shoot .22 at my club's ranges. The CZ452 has excellent adjustable tangent sights and with Velocitor my groups at 200 yds annoy the heck out of the black gun shooters.

When shooting 1000 yds or more, in addition to doping wind, the shooter must also consider Coriolis effect and the Magnus effect. "Milprileb's" range faces due north, so Coriolis deflection is at its strongest. I computed it for "Milprileb's" K31 a few years ago and a correction of 1/4-1/2 MOA was called for at that range.

Added: by and large Coriolis effect is not significant when compared to normal dispersion.It may be a factor with extremely accurate ammunition with an equally extremely accurate rifle like Accuracy International. The prime factor is time of flight.

But Magnus effect can be far more significant. To illustrate: two shooters are on the line, one with a K31 - right hand twist - and the other with an Enfield No 4 - left hand twist. Both have zeroed and are getting bulls. A wind kicks up from their right. Now the K31 shooter is hitting low, and the No 4 shooter is hitting high. Although the Magnus effect is the effect of a side wind, it affects vertical impact. Even when the shooters correct their windage, the Magnus effect will cause the trajectory to rise or fall, depending on the bullet's rotation with regard to wind direction.
 

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Its sad but thee seem to be more long (1,000+ Yd) ranges in the U.K. Than on the Right bank of the USA!
The longest place I can actually shoot is private land to 650 yds.
 
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Its sad but thee seem to be more long (1,000+ Yd) ranges in the U.K. Than on the Right bank of the USA!
The longest place I can actually shoot is private land to 650 yds.

besides Quantico, there is a private range near Culpeper that runs 1700+, but there are hoops to be passed thru to join or shoot there,

Damneck was 500 when they used to let civilians shoot,
Cavalier is 600,
there may be a range in SW VA that has that distance, but I am not sure,

there is a private club east of RVA that has 1200+ yard lanes,, but they are hunters,

I'm not sure where Charlie is shooting his Smokeless muzzle loaders, but it's somewhere near Ashland, but I think he is limited to 800 or so
 

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Yeah, I can't get onto Quantico, not being a US citizen.
There s a place in WVa,
Peacemaker National Training Center, Its the one that, among other things, gave away their member lists to the press when threatened.
but they're terrible & I refuse to go back there.
 

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Its sad but thee seem to be more long (1,000+ Yd) ranges in the U.K. Than on the Right bank of the USA!
The longest place I can actually shoot is private land to 650 yds.
The reason for this is simple. The UK's licensing laws and taxes on rifles, ammo, and reloading components limit shooters to those with sufficient dedication, and resources to match that dedication. Here in the Union of Soviet America the typical shooter is using some sort of AR. For the majority of them, getting hits on a silhouette at 25 or 50 yds is considered to be a great accomplishment. Let's face it; this is the age of instant gratification.

Long range rifle accuracy only comes with practice, and the self discipline and dedication to practice that "milprileb" personafies. This is inimical to instant gratification.

Over the 12 years I have been lucky to be a member of a local range club I have seen the membership shift from hunters, milsurp and target shooters to black gunners. Those of us that come to the range with our Swiss straight pulls, Swedes, Finn's, Enfields, 03's and Garands are becoming fewer and fewer and the newer membership are all shooting black guns. A few are trying to group at 200 and 300 yds, but they are the few.
 

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I think its more population density & land usage.
We were all beginners once, long, long ago & Far, Far away.
Some of the "FNG's" will eventually become proficient riflemen.
I say lets give 'em a change & encourage & mentor them.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Rob..some feedback
a. 300 Win
Mag is an ideal long range caliber and will go the distance 100yds to 1 mile.
b. 338 Lapua is definitely the ticket for over 1000 yds and a proven 1 mile caliber

If , for 1000 yds , I felt either caliber was mandatory to achieve my objectives , I'd be owning one of each. They are not necessary calibers for 1000 yds but they are , I feel , necessary for seriously long range shooting which for me is defined "over 1000 yds". The 1000 yd range at Quantico defines my shooting limits so everything for me is focused on one distance ..1000 yds. I don't own a bucket loader to scoop powder and drop it into Lapua 338 cases ..thats another limitation I live with. (LOL).


Some info here worth a look. I don't buy into the "Elite" talk about shooting 1000 yds and the foreplay for dope outlined here is a tooth ache. Inside 2 hours one can go from 100 yds zero, shoot 300/600/800 and be on the 1000 yd line and have basic dope that will serve one well. This is not a long tooth ache of pain, agony as this article tends to frame it. Shoot, adjust scope..shoot and get on target with a tight shot group: write that scope setting down for the distance shot ...and move back to next yard line. This article is okay but if it was a dating manual, one would be a 70 year old virgin. Kiss the babe and move on !

Leon: I actually did look at 7x57 Mauser, did that 12 years ago but a competition shooter who used a 7mm/08 gave up on that caliber because bullet selection was so slim here in USA and that has not changed in our country. Like the 270 Win , the 7x57 Mauser is waiting for someone to re discover it and put it back on the map sheet ! If I was not convinced 6.5 ballistics were so compelling superior , I'd just stop at 3006 and say Good Nuff . That said, we have our best shooter for the last 14 yrs at 1000 yds and he's been using a 3006 with 208 Bergers and pushes them to the bottom performance of 300 Win Mag and his accuracy and performance is nothing short of spectacular. It is no coincidence my newest build is an exact copy of his rifle and as such...its a laser beam and has changed my shooting success at 1000 yds.

Lots of ways and means to get what you want for accuracy at 1000 yds. Fact remains that 1000 yds is nothing special and everyone can do it...now how hard you have to work to get accuracy at 1000 yds is on you. I have to work very hard at it and others not so much.

My plain jane, 1991 era M1A rifle, not glass bedded, stock factory rifle with a 16x SWFA fixed scope will consistently w/o qualification put 8 of 10 rounds from 1000 yd line in a man size military E Type Silhouette with 175 or 178 gr BTHP. It does that using the Mk316 Mod "O" loading of 41.745 gr IMR 4064 powder...go look it up, its on the web. Its not a max load but it was developed for semi auto govt 762 platforms by NSW Crane. Shooting man size targets from 1000 yds with a non special M1A is not hard work to do....now if you want a head shot....thats problematic , its not a precision rifle whatsoever. The point is 1000 yds is no special deal if its hits on a man and all can master that with a factory 762 Nato rifle. If hits on a man is the standard you seek...easy stuff. If smaller targets...you need better equipment and a lot of work.

1000 yds : just do it if you want to do it. Don't let the flat earth society tell you its exotic or special or really hard to do. Total BS that 1000 yds is anything hard to do
 
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