[LStansel]

I've just started playing with this round. I reload for about 40 cartridges but other than the 7.62x25, no other older pistol rounds. Nothing personal to those who use the 32 caliber route but I am only interested in using the original brass. If I want to shoot A different round I have 43 other weapons

So with that said all I have tried is three loads with powders on hand using an 86gr hornady soft point in 308 cal. I know, I know, everyone says to use 32 cal and a 308 is to loose to shoot good. That's Not always true. I have read where a dealer slugged 4 random pistols in his stock and all came out to around .308. His words, not mine. And others say its .311 or so. I use 308 175 gr in all my 54r rounds and outshoot any other rounds I've tried factory loads.

So back to the pistol. I've used aa#7, aa#5 and unique. All shot smaller than palm size groups at 15 yards. 6.5 gr aa7 for about 1050 fps, but too slow burn and some powder left to foul up the mechanism. I used 4.2 gr unique for about 1020 fps. And 5.0 gr aa5 for about 900 fps. Remember I'm using 86 gr .308. I used once fired ppu brass, CH brand 4 die set(80$) and a 223 roll crimp die I'll explain in a bit. I left the once fired brass oal as is at about 1.515 average oal. I annealed all rounds. I set the soft point round appx .025 deep past brass edge. I use the taper crimp to smoothe things out but it will not roll the edge over needed to feed easily in the forcing cone. So I use a 223 roll crimp die I have to roll the edge a bit and all rounds feed perfect. I used all normal lubing and resizing techniques. Nothing special.

All rounds fed and fired without issues. The mouth of the brass extending beyond the cylinder edge does flair out more with the hotter rounds and you have to tap the round a bit to reduce that flair back in the chamber when fired cases are extracted. Once that is accomplished the rounds fall out on their own and empties rechamber easily. Brass all in perfect condition. No loses.

All rounds were accurate but the aa5 held the best group for a non bench rested shot. Easily holding perfect groups smaller than my palm. My next loads I'll try this weekend is with the Graf's 98 gr d.e.w.c.'s using 4.5 gr aa5 and haven't decided on unique load yet. I will also slightly increase the 86 gr loads with unique and aa5.

So with all that said I would like to hear about any loads with original factory brass others have tried with 85-98 grain .308 rounds. Not interested in using 32 cal (310-312) rounds or lead cast bullets. I also have power pistol and titegroup powders that would possibly work. I know the limitations of the weapon but I also know it will safely take more than most of the anemic loads I see listed. I'm not trying to maximize the power of the round just get the most out of it and retain the accuracy while maintaining the original design of the round. I've read about a hundred different web pages on this round and can't believe the lack of data using the factory brass. I know it's the cost, but surely there has to be more than I've found. And with the CH dies it's as easy as any other round to reload factory.

And to anyone interested the ppu USA rep told me they are shipping brass to graf&son in march or maybe early April. You can back order with them.

 

[packrat1]

I use Red Dot powder in the 7.62X38R case and am using a .311 cast and sized bullet 100 gr.

 

[rio nueces]

Correct 7.62x38r PPU brass. Cast bullets sized to .309, 92 and 100 gr. round nose. 3.5 Red Dot..... good accuracy, point of aim, extraction....some fall out, some require a little tap. No chronograph. Good penetration in pine boards.
Same load w/ 88 gr. cast wadcutters seems hotter - harder extraction, not quite as accurate. A very sturdy load. I think more pressure due to more bearing surface.

I agree - it's not so tough to load. I've tried the 32-20 brass route - it's not for me. The gas seal is a very good feature.
Thanks for the heads up on Graf brass.

 

[AWO425]

I am in the middle of some experiments right now to devellop two loads, one duplicating the old service round with a 100grn bullet at around 270m/s and the other with a 100grn HBWC to reproduce the magnificnet accuracy of the B-1 target load. Looks good so far and I will post a complete report on reloading in some days.
I use Fiocchi brass and also berdan primed B-1 brass, modyfied Lee dies set on a Lee Classic Turret.
For powder there ist 3N37 for the service round and N330 and N320 for the HBWC.

For ammo testing I use a TOZ36 taget revolver with LER scope, but have to built a rest for it to eliminate my shaking

 

[ckinser1]

i worked up a load last year with ppu brass using my own cast swc 85 grain sized to 309. i got excellent groups using 3.2 grains and 900-940 fps. you used a full grain more of powder but only got 100 more fps. Do you know how hard the hornady lead is? you will get a faster load from a bullet that is about 9 bhn as i think you must be loosing gas around the bullet.
when i get some play time i am going to work up a 1200 fps load with 2400.

 

[beauco]

L, very interesting, welcome to the 'Board.

 

[LStansel]

i worked up a load last year with ppu brass using my own cast swc 85 grain sized to 309. i got excellent groups using 3.2 grains and 900-940 fps. you used a full grain more of powder but only got 100 more fps. Do you know how hard the hornady lead is? you will get a faster load from a bullet that is about 9 bhn as i think you must be loosing gas around the bullet.
when i get some play time i am going to work up a 1200 fps load with 2400.

Im using hornady jacketed soft points. I only use jacketed rounds, never cast, but the info given here gives me some ideas on powders and potential loads.

 

[ckinser1]

you might want to go to full lead rounds as the nagant is special in that most need a 309 bulletfor chambering but have 311 bores. when i shoot the factory ppu to get the cases the gas loss is considerable. if performance is what you are after lead is the way to go for this round

 

[LStansel]

I appreciate the suggestions about the cast bullets, but as I said I'm not interested in using them. My shooting buddy of over 20 years uses them in his and many other calibers and we go round and round about the issue, but I've reloaded probably 50k+ rounds and never once used cast and probably never will. Thats just me. As far as the bores there still is a lot to be said about that. I've shot several different .308 loads in it including the ppu stuff and all have fired better than expected. Never once has a round keyholed. All very good groups considering my skills with a pistol off hand. As good as many of the calibers I reload. A interesting article I have read says the writer slugged four random nagants in their inventory and all came around the 308-309 range that history says the pistol is chambered. the article is here.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar123.htm

He of course is just one of many that give conflicting stories of what many say is the true dimensions are for this round and I don't dispute the truth to any of them. The web can be useful for info or aggravating as hell as anyone knows that does a lot of researching on it because of misinformation that has been passed for so many years that it finally becomes truth to many. So anyway, it's just me but I prefer jacketed ammo. i often use my friends knowledge of cast loads and his developements to help design some of my new loads with unfamiliar calibers. He went with the 115 grain cast bullet and trail boss in his nagant. It's all valuable info and i study it all so thanks for any info. I'll will post the data I get at the range tomorrow with the 98gr double ended wad cutters (dewc's) I got from graf's using aa5 and unique plus a couple other charge changes in load from previous loads. Hopefully the weather will be good enough to use the crony.

On a note. I also reload for my 25 cal, 32 acp,380, 7.62x25, 9mm, 357 sig, 38 special, 357 mag, 40 cal, 45 acp's, 45 long colt, 44 mag, 223, 6.5 swede bolts and semi lunjman, 270, 7.5 swiss, 308's, 54r's including my svt40, persian 8mm mauser, semi auto K43 and semi auto egyptian hakim in 8mm,3006, 6.5 grendel, 7.62x39, 300 mag and probably some I can't remember. So while this one is definately different, it's just a fun new challenge for the moment! Thanks guys.

 

[LStansel]

Finally made it to the range with new loads. Rained all Friday and Saturday. Had to shoot at the 25 yard range so accuracy of groups suffered accordingly over the 15yds I shot last time. This time I added the Graf's 98 grain fmj double ended wadcutters. I also made some loads using powerpistol. We used two chrony's in a row to verify the velocities. Results as follows:

98 grain dewc's with 4.5 grain AA#5 gave me 826 fps av. Accuracy at 25 yards decent, nothing special
86 grain Hornady Jacketed softpoint with 5.5 gr AA#5 1057 fps av. accuracy good

98 gr dewc's 4.0 gr Unique 926 fps av. accuracy not quite as good as the aa#5 load
86 gr hornady's 4.6 unique 1100 fps av accuracy good

98 gr dewc's 4.1 gr power pistol 834 fps av. Accuracy surprisingly good for wadcutters. Best of all the loads, but slower than I had hoped.
86 gr hornady's 4.8 gr power pistol 997 fps av, accuracy good, but AA#5 still the best so far for this round.
I could not find any data using power pistol. It's a bit slower than Unique, but faster than the AA#7 which I used before and didn't get full powder burn. Most data I looked at showed a heavier load of power pistol over unique, so I increased the load slightly.

Recovered a couple rounds and checked rifling on them. Full rifling marks, but obviously not real tight in barrel. All loads functioned without issues. Once the edge of the brass extending past the cylinder that flairs out when fired is pushed back into the cylinder, the rounds all fall out. I think some reloaders using the full length nagant brass believe the higher loads are making their brass stick some in the cylinders, but from what I can tell it is just the mouth that extends beyond the cylinder is flairing out when fired. As soon as I tap with a wooden rod I use or push with my fingernail, when that flair gets to the cylinder edge the rounds fall out on their own. And i can put them right back in with no sticking. Of course higher than normal loads would swell the brass along the body also and cause it to stick that way.

If I could find a jacketed bullet at .309 I would try it, but both rounds I used were .308 and actually I think the 98 gr dewc's were more about .3075. I fired 10 rounds of each load through double chrony's. Not one single round keyholed. All made perfect holes.

I think I'll try a higher load with the 98 grains and power pistol next time and stick with the aa#5 for the lighter load. I have some Sierra 85 gr soft points coming in with a lot less lead exposed on the tip than the Hornady's. The seating die messes up the lead tip on the hornady's and with the Sierra's the seater would hit the copper jacket and not the lead. As far as the brass, this is only the second firing on them and all brass in perfect condition. No lost brass due to splitting or anything else.

 

[Dan Schuttig]

Your DEWC aren't cast? I've just never seen a wc that wasn't either cast or plated. (basically cast). Just curious....

 

[LStansel]

Your DEWC aren't cast? I've just never seen a wc that wasn't either cast or plated. (basically cast). Just curious....

They are fmj's. Wierd shape overall. Wadcutters with top and bottom both exactly the same. Go to Graf's and Son's and go to the pistol rounds, .308 caliber, 98 grain. They are actually listed as Nagant ammo.

 

[Dan Schuttig]

Interesting, never seen a jacketed WC. I just cast all my own stuff so never realy shopped for such.

 

[rio nueces]

LStansel, thank you for all the load data, charges and velocities. Very helpful.
I want a consistent and accurate gas seal load, 100 gr. flat nose bullet at 1000 fps plus. I have some old Lee wadcutters that may do the trick, and I am familiar w/ the Grafs DEWC, looks like a great choice. You get that bullet going over 1000 fps and I'll order some from Graf's to duplicate your load. (working up to it, of course).

Any reason you are not using Red Dot?

The Nagant sure is an odd bird. For instance you can't judge pressures by extraction effort...because of the case swelling in the gap, as you noted.

 

[LStansel]

I'm trying to stick with powders I already have on hand. I already do so much reloading that I just don't have room for much more. But I have seen several people using red dot. I did finally find a .309 jacketed round. It's a Hornady xtp 90 grain. Seems my buddy has some he uses with his 7.62x25 loads so I'm going to try them also. I admit the .308's are borderline too small, but they work great in my pistol and the accuracy is better than I expected. I think a .309 would be about perfect and I really don't want to use a .312 jacketed round. I think I will be able to work up a round over 1000 with the 98's easy enough with the power pistol. That was my first attempt using it and not having anything to reference it against I started off with what I felt was safe. I doubt I will try for much more than that though. Accuracy will start to suffer and it's just not designed for hot loads. Hopefully I'll have some new data next weekend.

 

[LStansel]

Made it to the range again today. It was overcast, 29mph winds and gust in upper 30's, but the burms helped block most of the wind and the chrony only fell over a few times. tried some new rounds and new loads. All were using once fired ppu brass annealed after first firing. There were no losses of brass and none of these loads showed any signs on the brass different than previous loads. All rounds were taper crimped with my nagant CH die set and then I used the roll crimp die from my 7.62.25 lee die's to roll the edge of the brass in. Works better than the .223 roll crimp die I previously used. The taper die doesn't do much to reduce the mouth and I found if I didn't roll the edge a bit sometimes the round wanted to catch on the edge of the forcing cone. Loads as follows:

Sierra 85 grain (.308) jacketed soft point 6.0 grains AA#5 gave average velocity of 1163 fps, ES 33 and SD 12.6/ seated to .020 below rim of brass ( I did not trim the fired brass from first firing) Brass looks ok. Bit of a kick now but that's to be expected. Accuracy good considering I was shooting at the 25 yrd range and high gusty winds. These rounds have a much smaller exposed soft point so the seating stem hits copper instead of lead like with the Hornady's, so no damage to tip. I'm satisfied with this load and will not try to go higher.

Hornady 90 grain (.309) xtp hollow points. 5.5 grains AA#5 gave average velocity of 1034 fps, ES 30 and SD 11.5/ seated to .010 below rim of brass (almost flush) Brass ok. Accuracy did not seem as good as the round nose Sierra's, but it may just have been me. I am seriously considering white tipping the front sight. My eyes are getting bad. The beller for the brass with the CH dies will only bell the round enough for a .308 round and the .309 round would not sit inside the mouth so I had to hand feed the round up into the die to make sure it didn't fall over. It's not like some that have an increasing taper that will continue to enlarge the mouth. This one is like a fat stem of a fixed diameter. Anyway, I'll have to figure out a better die to use to bell the brass if I continue to use the .309's. I was hoping for a higher velocity, but I will probably leave this round as it is.

My final load was the Graf's 98 grain DEWC's again, seated to .050 below rim. i have to seat these deeper than the others because of the ends being flat and to prevent the roll crimp from trying to push the round deeper. This time I increased the load to 5.0 grains of power pistol (previous load was 4.1 grains) Av velocity of 997 fps ( Sorry Rio Nueces, I tried for the 1000fps you wanted ) ES 50, SD 17
Brass was fine and came out a bit better than the other loads. Accuracy was good considering my eyes today and the wind. Or maybe it's the tooth that has my face swollen up to my shooting eye Over eight years in the Marines and a little dentist scares the hell out of me!! Pitiful. OK, back to the loads. On this one I might add .1 grain just to top off the 1000 fps limit, but I will not go farther. I can tell the edges of the brass that extends past the cylinder is being worked more due to the crimping and expanding in just that small area with all the loads. I will probably re-anneal rounds every other shooting to see how much that helps save the brass. Next range session will be third loading with the brass.

So that's the latest. Accuracy for all rounds were acceptable. If you want to shoot the wings off of fly's cut the load in half. My buddy was shooting 32-20 brass in his today with 115 grain cast loads and was trying tite group powder. He's still working on that, but seems to like it so far. I also crony'ed factory ppu 98 grains at 622 fps av and since I have an old .32 long snubby, I shot a few of those in my nagant just for the hell of it. They were 98 grain Magtech's and gave 503 fps. There you go. No new powders, just two new rounds and new loads. I feel that all rounds are safe, but with this revolver, normal primer and brass indications for pressures are not as prevalent. The power pistol is the slowest of the two powders I've settled on so far, and the brass appears to show less pressure signs that the AA5.

 

[LStansel]

Need to make a correction with a statement I made about the CH tool & Die nagant set I use. I said the expander die would only bell the mouth enough for a 308 to sit in. I took it apart and looked at it. It is a different design than I'm used to. It has a knob type end that precedes the belling section. That section is appx .307 and expands the brass inside about as deep as the whole round would seat and then the true beller section bells the mouth open as much as you need. The .307 knob would be similar to the expander ball used in a bottleneck case when resizing that opens the neck back up after resizing. Anyway, it does the job, I just wasn't using it right. None of my other dies uses a system like that and it threw me off. Just wanted to make that correction.

 

[ckinser1]

anealling after every shooting is smart as the mouths are worked really heavy. i prefer slower powders for hotter rounds. who knows how fast these rounds would be if you were getting a complete gas seal from the bullet but bottom line is do we need to go over 1200, i think not. thanks for the good work

 

[LStansel]

Here's my final loads using ppu nagant brass. This is the third firing on the brass. No loss of brass so far.

Using Graf's 98 (.308) grain double ended wad cutters: 5.1 gr power pistol (last load was 5.0), Av vel.1051 fps, extreme spread 52 fps, Accuracy ok shooting at 25 yards.

Sierra 85 (.308) grain jacketed soft points: 6.0 grain AA#5 (no change in charge) Av vel. 1168 fps, extreme spread 37 fps, best accuracy easily shooting palm size groups at 25 yards.

Hornady 90 grain xtp's (.309): 5.7 grain AA#5 (.2 grain more than last load) Av vel. 1104 fps, extreme spread 54, accuracy Ok.

The sierra's 85 grain hit dead on with my sights and the wadcutters hit about 4 inches higher and several inches to the left. The xtp's slightly lower than the 85's. This isn't the most accurate if you are only looking to hit bullseyes all day, but it's good enough. Any of these three rounds with about a 20% reduction in power factor would be very accurate. As they are, they have plenty of power and accuracy enough to hit what you aim at if you do your part.

As noted on the previous post the 108 grain russian factory milsurp I just received shot 935 fps av and ex. spread of 52. Accuracy was scattered a bit and not as accurate as any of my loads above. The cause may be because the round is only a .307 dia. I would have expected larger. I have read that is was .307 before and I confirmed it. oal of the round is .644 and seated very deep. Actual weight of the one I almost pulled was 105.5.


So that is it for my reloading. I don't expect to try anything else unless I load a reduced round using the sierra 85 grains. Might make a light plinking round around 900 fps for the youngsters to shoot.

 

[45autorim]

I use 110 gr. .308 diameter 30 carbine bullets and 4 gr. Bullseye with no problems. Cases fall from the chambers. Have several 30 caliber rifle moulds and I am going to experiment with some of them. I plan on using a Dremel tool to cut some of the grease grooves and truing them up on a lathe.