Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 20 of 84 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
A newcomer here: greetings to all. I had shot someone's 1911 .45 Llama at the range a few years ago, and it was a pleasant experience, but that until now had been my one and only contact with the world of Spanish pistols.

I have now come into possession of what looks for all the world to have been that same 1911 .45, only left in the clothes dryer for too long, and shrunk to 1/3 scale and .22LR caliber.

This is a "Llama Especial", of what I believe to be 1960 vintage.

Overall condition seems good, mechanical actions all smooth. I don't want to fire it until I have torn it down as far as it will go and put it back together again, checking all functions as I do. I discarded the dubious ammunition which had been in the single mag.

It has a bit of light drawer rust in places. I immediately got a coat of CLP distributed throughout, and will let it sit heavily coated for a few weeks' time. That should stop any ongoing corrosion and make a good start on getting it restored to proper appearance.

Grips are what I believe to be walnut, deeply checkered. From what I have noted on line, those tend to crack at the lower forward point. One side looks fine, the other shows a very faint crack on the inward face.

It is missing one grip screw. It appears that those are hard to find. Armatt indicate that they may be able to machine one ab initio if I can provide them with a factory screw from which they could template the new one.

My further assumption is that I should be on the lookout for any and all such small wear/loss parts that I might encounter, firing pins and the like, to be purchased and squirreled away into backup inventory.

It appears to me that the later Llama XV series, also in .22LR, evolved out of this specific firearm. May I safely assume that most if not all parts will interchange between them without difficulty?

Finally, if anyone can point me to owners' manuals, exploded views, and detailed parts lists, I would be very much in their debt. Thanks in advance for all feedback, tips, tricks, and warnings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
579 Posts
Coastside, congrats on your find, I'm sure everyone here would like to see a pic when you have time. There hasn't been a book published (to my knowledge) on Llama firearms, however Gene Gangarosa authored a book called SPANISH HANDGUNS in which there are several chapters devoted to Llama. There is also a seller on Ebay that publishes reproductions of older Llama manuals. I don't know if your gun would be covered in these, but the quality appears good and his price is reasonable. Hope you enjoy your Llama, I have a small herd myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
I've owned 4 over a span of 30+ years. They all worked their best with HV ammo, standard velocity stuff always caused problems. I never had the problem, but have seen a few that had lost their extractors during fireing. Don't know if that has been any sort of an overall problem with these or the small frame 22/32/380 Llamas in particular or not. One early edition I had did not have the grip safety properly working, though it appeared to have never been gunsmithed nor worn. It would fire with the grip safety in the out or on position. I remedied that by rebuilding the arm of the grip safety. I think the fireing pin changed shape or design slightly from the early to the later guns. The barrel lug shape is different too, early vs later. They always showed alot of hand work, fitting marks inside. Neat little guns, but I never seem to be able to keep the one I buy. It always ends up getting traded off for something else. The old Stoegers Shooters Bibles from the 50's/60s may have exploded views as Stoegers used to feature them in their catalogs. I know I've seen other exploded views/parts pics somewhere. I'll see if I can locate one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I've owned 4 over a span of 30+ years. They all worked their best with HV ammo, standard velocity stuff always caused problems.
Thanks, ktr, that's good to know. I would have been cautious about using high velocity in an older pistol whose particulars I did not know. It would have been a bad day had I shown up to the range with a box of standard-vel 22 longs and then had difficulties. I'll be sure to take both.

I think the fireing pin changed shape or design slightly from the early to the later guns. The barrel lug shape is different too, early vs later. They always showed alot of hand work, fitting marks inside. Neat little guns, but I never seem to be able to keep the one I buy. It always ends up getting traded off for something else. The old Stoegers Shooters Bibles from the 50's/60s may have exploded views as Stoegers used to feature them in their catalogs. I know I've seen other exploded views/parts pics somewhere. I'll see if I can locate one.
If the parts are indeed not readily interchangeable between the superficially similar models, I would be even more grateful for any references which would help in ID'ing and classifying them.

It sounds as though I should be on the lookout on the pawnshop and gun show circuit. If I come across any cosmetically distressed examples that are component compatible, I will give serious thought to buying one or more as a parts mule.

In the meantime, if I do go ahead and ask Armatt to cut a new grip screw for this one, might anyone else have interest in stacking on top of that order?

--
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
LLama .22 Especial

Down on the pictures of Spanish pistols thread page 5 I just posted a pix of my Especial. I was fortunate to get one in pristine shape and have put several hundred rounds through it. Mine likes lead round nose (Federals), Hollow points seem to be more prone to jamming. Overall It's a favorite for me and for my grandkids.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
I found an exploded view of a Llama Model III, small frame 380 from an older Numrich catalog. Most all of the small parts will interchange. Fireing pin, extractor, magazine, barrel being different of course. The 22's are blowback operated so the barrel is secured into position by the slide stop cross pin thru the barrel lug. That lug is rounded on it's bottom edge on some and square on others. I can't recall which is the earlier version. The width of the lug may be different also, but I don't think so. I had an experience with the extractor on a late .22 pistol. It was brought to me with the extractor missing (spring and plunger still in tact). Unable to find a replacement part separately, The owner found another 'parts' pistol that I took the extractor off of. Even though the pistols were within a couple of years of mfg and of the same model design, the 'new' extractor took quite a lot of fitting to get into place and to work correctly. The Llama pistols just don't have the QC that the other Spanish pistols have IMHO. Don't get me wrong, as I do like them and have owned several. Just an observation from working on more than a few. So if you do need a part for yours at some point, chances are it won't be a drop-in situation when it comes to installation. Don't get too hung up on stockpiling parts for one as they seem to be quite reliable and fixable when anything goes wrong. The tough part is finding the bigger parts like a hammer, slide stop, etc when missing or broken. I'm still trying to recall what the difference in the fireing pins was. Perhaps one was full round in shape, the other had the front end flattened on the sides and tapered. I don't have anything left over in the way of 22 Especial/ Model X parts anymore except a stripped frame maybe. Hope all of this helps..makes me want to go looking for another .22 Especial again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I found an exploded view of a Llama Model III, small frame 380 from an older Numrich catalog. Most all of the small parts will interchange. Fireing pin, extractor, magazine, barrel being different of course.
Thanks, ktr! I have printed and filed the view. If I find a view that is specifically for an Especial, I'll of course reciprocate the favor and post it here on the Spanish forum.

I have begun to fieldstrip the gun, intending to do a very careful internal inspection, coat everything in Eezox for protection, and then reassemble for a first trip to the range.

I did hit a snag. Steps so far that worked were:

(a) Depress the plug below the barrel;
(b) Rotate the barrel bushing clear of the plug;
(c) Remove the plug and spring from the frame;
(d) Remove the barrel bushing.

So far it's very much like a classic Government Model 1911.

But the next step on a GI 1911 would be to:

(e) Pull slide to rear, aligning the front notch with the slide stop;
(f) From the other side, push the slide stop out through the notch.

I can align the notch easily enough, but then the slide stop shows no inclination to be pressed through. Am I on the right track, or does it break down a different way?

--
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
The slide stop comes out the same way a 1911 does. (Be sure the magazine is removed from the pistol or it will push the slide stop upwards.) Slide stop in the lower/down position, the rear portion is lined up with the REAR (smaller notch) notch in the retracted slide, it should pull out fairly easily,,especially giving the opposite end a push with your thumb. After that, again, the same as a 1911,,pull the slide w/barrel & recoil spring off the front of the frame.
>
the smaller notch (rear) is for dissassembly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
the smaller notch (rear) is for dissassembly
Sheesh, ktr, you're completely correct, thanks for setting me straight on that one. Not only was I aligning on the wrong notch, but aligning with the wrong end of the slide stop.

Note to self: the do-not-shoot-while-fatigued rule ought also to apply to disassembling guns.

--
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
any one can help me:)? i cant load bullets in my llama .22pistol because the firing pin move forward. pls helps me. i will post the pictures next time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
i need help

any one can help me:)? i cant load bullets in my llama .22pistol because the firing pin move forward. pls helps me. i will post the pictures next time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
llama .22

any one can help me:)? i cant load bullets in my llama .22pistol because the firing pin move forward. pls helps me. i will post the pictures next time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
llama .22 problem

this is the style of my llama 22 pistol, i cant find the lock of the firing pin. i can't load bullets because of the firing pin, the firing pin move forward.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
I just bought a Llama factory issued manual that is supposed to include the .22 Especial (Model XV in .22 LR, Model XVII in .22 Short). I should have it within a week. If you're still interested, and If you have a FAX number I can send it to, I'll FAX you whatever it has on the .22.

Also, look right above the trigger on the left side. You'll see, among other things, a letter and a number, with a * between them. That's the Year Of Proof code. Then go to this site to find out what year it is:

http://9mmlargo.com/year_codes.htm

(I don't have the extra time right now to read the whole string to see if anyone already told you this, so I figured it couldn't hurt to nclude it.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
Llama Especial

I've received the manual, and it had a diagram for the .22. I'm sure it would take too many bytes to post it here (the limit is 100Kb), but if you have a FAX number I can FAX it to you. My email is [email protected].
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
To yaru

For some reason, I just looked at the picture you posted. That is a Model XVII, in caliber .22 short. The Model XV is a .22 Long Rifle, and has a straight grip instead of the finger shaped one the XVII has.
 

·
Silver Bullet Member
Joined
·
526 Posts
Llama parts

I happen to have a large collection of Llama parts including most for the .22LR. I do not have the recoil springs (cannot find anywhere), mags (available online at gunbrokers and gunclips.com) or frames.

There are 2 different firing pins. One has a distinct "screwdriver" type tip where it looks like a flat head screwdriver with bevels on both sides. This is for the earlier versions. The later versions have a bevel on one side only and a tiny prong. It looks like the letter "D".

The grip safeties, sears, triggers, thumb safeties, hammer, MSH, rear sights, disconnector, etc, all swap with the .32 and .380.

There are 2 distinct barrels on the .22LR as mentioned earlier. The older versions are the more rounded lugs and the squared off lugs are a tad wider and won't fit into the frame for the older models without cutting the frame. There is no visible difference in the slide locks between the earlier and later models but the slide lock from a later version won't work in the earlier versions but only trying it will tell you the difference. It seems that the width of the earlier slide lock frame posts is ~.167 versus ~.197 for the later models.

There are 2 distinctly different extractors. The earlier versions have thicker but stubbier extractors which are quite short in length and are nearly impossible to find. The later versions have a thinner and longer extractor closer to the .32 and .380 extractors but less than 1/4 the width. For whatever reason, Llama extractors seem to be prone to breaking. From working on a lot of Llamas it seems to me that the pin hole that is drilled thru the slide for the extractor is off by a degree or two vertically, fore and aft as well as in and out from the slide center. What this means is that hole is not consistant and often times is not perfectly verticle which tilts it in whatever direction the hole is drilled putting pressure on the extractor tip where it is not normally put. I've seen this many times (being off center) and all of these were seen during extractor jobs.

High Velocity LRN seems to be the favorite for these wonderful little pistols (as mentioned earlier). The lower velocities don't allow the slide to completely go into battery and usually the round isn't fully in the barrel. Springs for these .22LRs are no where to be found so if you wear one out you will get multiple FTFs and FTEs along with stovepipes. With a good spring these guys are a joy to shoot.

The firing pin and extractor seem to be the only parts that fail. Everything else seems hardy. I do not believe these guns like to be dry fired and may be a cause for many failures. I have also found, more than once, that if you have an Especial where the rear sight is fixed and the firing pin pin is a screw on the bottom of the slide (older versions) you may get failures to fire (seems like a dud) and if you recock the hammer by hand it will fire the second time (instead of racking the slide). It seems that if the firing pin pin is screwed in too far it can and does prevent the firing pin from going forward enough to ignite the round (light strike or no strike at all). If you back this screw back out to where it is flush with the slide you won't get the non-strikes. The screw won't fall out since the slide is in the way. I had a gun go from 1-2 non-fires per mag to 0 non-fires in 600 consecutive rounds by backing this pin out to flush.

If you need any assistance with your Llamas or parts just shoot me a message. I'd be glad to help.
 
1 - 20 of 84 Posts
Top