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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Here is my HT medium mount has a 38 dated barrel, maybe a replacement as it has been a target rifle after leaving the military, but has been factory drilled for a sight bed And also has the “p” for paint which is still evident on the action.
In my opinion too much of a coincidence to have had a replacement barrel after service as the target shooters wouldn’t know what the P designates.
More likely is that it is an original H rifle converted to a HT as Doogal suggested.
Also has original Queensland maple furniture With volleys View attachment 3908671
View attachment 3908672
View attachment 3908673
Looks like a factory fitted barrel due to MA VII stamps on barrel and receiver ring, but is there a serial number on the barrel, and does it match the receiver? If it is a factory fitted barrel in 1938, odds on it will have a serial number. The receiver looks parkerised, but hard to tell from the photos whether the barrel is parkerised or blued, but it looks different. If the barrel was with the receiver in the sniper conversion, both would be parkerised. I'm just trying to eliminate the possibility that it is a stripped down sniper (as some rifle club members did remove blocks from their rifles) that has had a 1944/45 barrel shot out and changed for a better condition 1938 H bbl out of another rifle.

I agree that the butt looks like it is coachwood, as it is not original 1915/16 without the marking disc. I assume that the receiver serial number appears in Skinny's list, and that the sent to store date is in March 1945?

Having pre 1917 furniture with provision for volley sights is seen on a few original snipers, so that's good. If the volley sights are still fitted, then that's not quite right....

An interesting rifle, especially if it is a Mk.3H(T) sniper with an original 1938 barrel fitted.
 

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I was lead to believe that the genuine (HT), apart from the action, used all new components.. furniture , barrel..etc.. I would also assume that the (HT) would have a serial numbered barrel also.
Only 1612 were produced and have been recorded by IS...so should not be a problem to verify one. Over the years I have seen many that were claimed to be genuine but were not.. similarly the MkIII(H) suffers the same fate, and its all about definition..To be a bona-fide MkIII(H) its needs to be assembled at Lithgow ( pre war) and have all matching serials including the barrel..
It is not mentioned in the 1948 "Price list for Army Stores".. the two rifles available being No1, Mk3 and the 3/1 ?..
Kenny.
 

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Someone here has a really nice medium mount with a transitional maple stock. I can't remember who. It may be an H rifle converted. Hopefully they will post pics.......Maybe someone with a HT will post pics of the barrel.... The front mount does make any serial number in the usual position a bit hard to see.
 

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Lance has a high mount with a maple butt and forend, it’s on here somewhere.
Found it . A couple of anomalies, as well as the maple fore-end....WW2 action. Still has inner band ( well the screw is there, most had the hole plugged) . Early trigger guard without swivel. But it looks good and is on the list...
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I don't think there is any doubt that Mk.3H(T)s came in a range of furniture. My first and second were both completely new components on a 1916 BSA III* receiver, and a Lithgow 1917 III receiver. My mate up the road had a nice medium mount ex rifle club disposal in the 1970s that was on Skinny's list, and it had walnut butt and fore end with volley sight plate, with coachwood top hand guards. I was not the tidiest looking rifle looking a bit piebald, but it was 100% as it left army stores. So there was definitely a bit of recycling going on.

What put the cat amongst the pigeons with repro snipers was when AOC went into liquidation in the late 1970s(?) and a well known theatrical armourer bought up all of the excess scopes and blocks. Some were medium mount scopes in the pre 1250 production number range. We theorize that these may have been defective and were not delivered to Army. The rest were low mount scopes with blocks in the 1700+ production number range. The earlier numbered scopes were complete and probably about to be delivered to Lithgow before the contract was cancelled. The later numbered scopes were incomplete and without the glass, but still sold with their matching blocks. These were a feature of his stall at the Sydney gun shows in the early 1980s.

A give-away for many snipers built up out of these parts is that the blocks are blued, not parkerised, and the block & scope production numbers are too high. Nowdays, we have the benefit of being able to check the rifle serial numbers on Skinny's list.
 

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Here is my HT medium mount has a 38 dated barrel, maybe a replacement as it has been a target rifle after leaving the military, but has been factory drilled for a sight bed And also has the “p” for paint which is still evident on the action.
In my opinion too much of a coincidence to have had a replacement barrel after service as the target shooters wouldn’t know what the P designates.
More likely is that it is an original H rifle converted to a HT as Doogal suggested.
Also has original Queensland maple furniture With volleys View attachment 3908671
View attachment 3908672
View attachment 3908673
Hi.. I sent you a private message...click on your avatar on the top bar of the page to find it....Regarding the rifle..have you the mounts, and is the barrel numbered to the rifle ?
Ken.
 

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Found it . A couple of anomalies, as well as the maple fore-end....WW2 action. Still has inner band ( well the screw is there, most had the hole plugged) . Early trigger guard without swivel. But it looks good and is on the list...
You mentioned the inner band screw being present, but the screw in this photo is the rear sight protector screw. Or is there another photo you’ve seen?
 

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You mentioned the inner band screw being present, but the screw in this photo is the rear sight protector screw. Or is there another photo you’ve seen?
Oops!!!! So it is. I'm sure one of the photos had 2 screws.......and now I can't find the thread again.....can I plead the Bundy defence........🤗
 

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It is the inner band screw... its too close to the nosecap to be the other...also what is the marking between the SOS stamp and the nosecap... or is it just damage ?
No Aussie was right it is the rearsight guard screw, and I found the original post from lance, must have been seeing double...The other marking is Frederick Harts stamp, see pic..
 

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have dug my ht out,
It has definitely been a target rifle at some stage but I believe it still has the original woodwork (definitely butt anyways). And barrel.
I guarantee the butt is Queensland maple as is the forend. It was handed in in the amnesty and has been stored poorly but I will get it looking good one day.
The butt has been stained and lacquered but I am 100% confident it is maple.
it has the flecks in the grain and the lightening holes as per early Lithgow and the Lithgow star. I have taken some pictures with a similar era coachwood butt to display the differences.
the front volley has been ground down which you would expect.
It is in skennertons list and the date to stores matches the date on the butt ( March 45)
the barrel has a serial number of 250 which is a bit of a mystery, as while it could be a serial a 3 digit one would be fairly unlikel.
what is more convincing is the P for paint stamp on the barrel. And yes the action is painted khaki green see pic.
the barrel is blued up to about an inch in front of the Knox and I believe the difference in finish is where the barrel/ receiver was painted up to as the woodwork would protect the rest of the barrel.
I also have a mint ishapore that is the same.
The action is parkerised but the re numbered (matching) bolt is blued.
I do not have the mounts but I have a p18 scope .
Musical instrument Wood Wind instrument Shotgun Gun accessory

Material property Wood Cylinder Metal Auto part

Wood Natural material Shotgun Hardwood Wood stain

Trigger Air gun Gun accessory Shotgun Gun barrel

Wood Automotive tire Bumper Tints and shades Automotive exterior

Musical instrument Wood Cone Road surface Triangle

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Brown Wood Trunk Wood stain Hardwood

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Of my limited sample of three HTs, none have serial numbered barrels.

Another thing to keep in mind when discussing stocking up of ex club rifles is that fullbore shooters lucky enough to have an old walnut forend immediately swapped it onto a new rifle when the rifle was acquired. The theory being, seasoned walnut was less prone to shifting the POI with humidity/temp. changes when travelling to competitions.

When 7.62 came about, these prized walnut forends along with the rifles were immediately made redundant and were chopped into sporters or remained in storage in their target guise for collectors to find forty or so years later.

I'll bet that those with old walnut forends are also shaved for a sight plate.

Son has probably seen/handled more of these than anyone and hopefully he'll be along to share his observations.
 

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This follows on from the 1926 Lithgow discussion, but probably better served by having its own thread if anyone has any ideas.

The gist is this: Were Lithgow barrels dated on manufacture, or on fitting up to the receiver?

For most production during WW1 and WW2, the barrel date would fit both requirements, as manufacture, fitting up and finished view would occur within a few days.

However, during the 1920s and 1930s when production was very slow and sporadic, a barrel may have sat in store a long time before fitting up. Hence using the barrel date as the basis of production chronology could end up confusing if you make the wrong pick between dating being applied at manufacture, or at fitting up.

I previously assumed that the barrel date was applied on fitting up, and was the best indicator of when the rifle was completed. That was somewhat based on the fact that the New-old-stock heavy barrels that used to be commonly available were all undated, hence no fit-up, no date. Some of the club rifles I have seen used in the 1950s and 1960 are a mixed bag. Some have barrel dates and some don't, but they almost never have the rifle serial number. Then there is the matter of the new MLE and SMLE heavy barrels being supplied into the gun trade from 1926 to 1939. Were these commercially supplied barrels dated when they left the factory?

Other factors that muddy the waters are the stories that:
1. service issue heavy barrel rifles were built up, but were sold to rifle clubs in the 1930s, only to be requisitioned at start of WW2 (we know that is true).
2. barrels were sold to the trade so that civilian club armourers and members of the trade could fit them to rifles as part of their trade. If so, did they bother serial numbering the barrel to the receiver?
3. barrels sold commercially into the trade were then requisitioned back to Lithgow at the start of WW2. These are marked MOTTY, TAYLOR, SPECIAL STEEL (any others?)
3a. Question: Did Lithgow stamp the MOTTY, TAYLOR etc onto the barrels they supplied, of did the trade apply the stamps themselves?
4. Lithgow did commercial work for the gun trade by fitting barrels to privately owned club SMLEs. You would think that what came back would have been dated and serial numbered.


The only examples of 1930s commercial barrels I have noted are:
1. Lithgow 1915 No.28389 with a defaced sold out of service /I\ S /I\ mark on receiver ring. Rifle came out of war stock in 1982. Barrel is dated 7 '36, no serial number and marked SPECIAL STEEL on the knox form. That sort of tells the story that the rifle was disposed of to a rifle club post WW1 (official sale mark), was fitted with a heavy barrel by the trade circa 1936 without numbering the barrel, and was then requisitioned back into service circa 1939 and had its sale mark obliterated. That sort of indicates that the barrel was dated on manufacture, but what if point 4 is true?

I have been a bit remiss in not paying too much attention to the club rifles, so have not been gathering much info.

Are there also any New-Old Stock light barrels out there? No serial number is a given, but are they dated or not??

Any info appreciated.

regards,

D.
I have a Lithgow SMLE with 1923 on the butt socket, serial # B5806 on the knox form and 1917 stamped on the barrel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Looks like a 1917 barrel recycled at some stage into the 1923 receiver. Although it will have the 1917 production date, it may also have the refitting date in a M/YY format on the right side of the knox form.
 
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