[303EnfieldAU]

Those of you watching the news will no doubt have seen the chaos that is Bombay at the moment, with all the explosions and running gun battles and hostage crises and what have you.

And, sure enough, our old friend the Lee-Enfield (in this case, the No. 4 Mk I, from the looks of it) is there in the hands of the Bombay Police as they deal with the situation. 120 years and still going strong... and people wonder why we're all so fond of the Lee-Enfield?

Here's hoping the situation in Bombay gets sorted out without any further loss of life, damage, or further unpleasantness...

 

[markfh]

Yep, noticed that right off. Looked just like one of mine.

 

[geekay]

First one I saw on the news was/is a #1 (SMLE) then came the #4s. Interesting. As I mellow (ripen/grow older) I prefer to view passive history rather than watch it happening. Fat chance!

 

[bonny]

Yes, it has indeed been a bit of a shock to see whats going on in Bombay. Somethings sadly never change. But I hope you all don´t get your hopes too high about the good ol´ Lee Enfields. These rifles hardly saw any action during these few trying days. They are issued to the local constabulary simply because they are available in such copious numbers. Most of the cops bearing these elegant rifles were merely involved in cordoning off the affected areas. The real action was seen by the sub guns, Indian FAL variants and ofcourse the AKs. The army troopers carried the 5.56mm INSAS rifles and the commandos were armed with their usual glitzy toys.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10258

The truth is that the SMLE is hardly suited for such urban firefights and is a bit of a dinosaur still lingering around (sorta like the crocs). Sometimes I wonder what my rifle actually thinks about me and my antics. I love my 1918 SMLE, but in a firefight it is going to stay safely tucked away upstairs - next to the Obie Swede Mauser and the NEW Mosin.

 

[CroppyBoy1798]

Watched a documentary lately about the Bombay Railway, the railway has its own police force it seems, and the guys it showed in the docu were armed with Lee Enfields (at least on parade anyway, not sure if they carry them on active duty?), now, in saying that I dont know if they were SMLE's, No4's or 2A's, but they were defo LE's!

 

[jdub]

I'll play

I would hate to be on the receiving end of the .303. And if I was an Indian citizen I would not like to be in the neighborhood when the police or whoever started pray and spraying automatic fire.

 

[bonny]

Here are some more pics which I came across. Perhaps I was a bit too hasty in being dismissive about the Lee Enfields.
Anyway, just in case you folks begin to imagine that any of the LEs were fitted with grenade launchers, here is a tiny mix of the "other" equipment as well.

 

[batjka]

As I have read, the Indian police in Bombay (Mumbai) don't have any ammo to practice with their Enfields. They are generally issued only long sticks and the rifles are only given to them in case of emergency. Those policemen only shoot 10 rounds per year if they're lucky.

While outdated as compared to the assault rifles, the Enfields could have provided enough firepower to contain the terrorists withing the train station, especially given the number of policemen. The problem was that the policemen didn't know how to shoot their weapons and were probably not even issued any ammunition. When you look at the photos you don't see any ammunition carrying devices on their belts. I would imagine anyone armed with an Enfiels would have a bandoleer or ammo pouches with stripper clips. None of the cops had that.

I however found this photo:
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/782/27slter5br1.jpg

As you can see, a cop is armed with an FAL has a bandoleer of .303 ammo. India is a weird country...

 

[batjka]

I stand corrected. Found a photo of Indian policemen with ammo bandoleers and Enfields:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7772/mumbai07kc9.jpg

 

[kb466]

As you can see, a cop is armed with an FAL has a bandoleer of .303 ammo. India is a weird country...

I would suspect the cop with the Indian version of the FAL has a bandoleer of 7.62 ammo in 5-round stripper clips rather than .303.

 

[batjka]

You are probably right about the 7.62 ammo on clips, but it is still a strange choice for ammo supply. As I understand one needs a special adopter to load a FAL magazine with stripper clips. I don't think this guy has the adopter and plus, how is he going to reload in combat? He has no spare magazines. He would have to take out the magazine from the rifle, put an adopter on, charge with stripper clips, and the re-insert into the rifle. Doesn't sound like a thing I'd like to do in the middle of a firefight.

 

[Thunderbox]

You are probably right about the 7.62 ammo on clips, but it is still a strange choice for ammo supply. As I understand one needs a special adopter to load a FAL magazine with stripper clips. I don't think this guy has the adopter and plus, how is he going to reload in combat? He has no spare magazines. He would have to take out the magazine from the rifle, put an adopter on, charge with stripper clips, and the re-insert into the rifle. Doesn't sound like a thing I'd like to do in the middle of a firefight.

I never saw the mag adapter being used in all my years of British Army service - ammo came in bandoleer or box (the most common), and you just hand load the mags. Its actually very quick - it was common training drill to do this as a race - which is why UK didn't bother to adopt the charger bridge in the top cover.

Looking at the photos of the Indian Police, you can see why their surplus Enfields have no blacking left around the muzzle....

 

[bonny]

Here is something that came in today - CCTV footage from the Neo-Gothic Heritage Site Central Railway train station.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrPcSRUFeZs

Seems that the "mad minute" doctrine is no longer in vogue.

Although Bollywood heros do exist in real life as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXLlN7rbOKI

Case in point: This pair of demented hadjees ran amock at the train station where more than 60 policemen were present!! (I have commuted through this station for over 16 years, and trust me - the cops have SLRs and Sterling sub guns too).
This pair later went on to wreck more havoc outdoors, but were finally stopped by a small group of policemen manning a road barricade and armed with one service revolver and two 7.62 mm SLRs.

Here is the sequence of photos, as published in the Times of India today-

1. Pakistan-trained terrorists Abu Ismail and Ajmal Amir Kasab gunned down 48 people at Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus and nine policemen at two other spots before commandeering the Skoda. As the news spread, policemen took position near Marine Drive to intercept their vehicle.

2. The terrorists were stopped by barricades near Girgaum Chowpatty. As they drove down, policemen opened fire, killing Abu Ismail who was in the driver’s seat.

3. The out-of-control vehicle swerved to the side of the road and came to a halt. Within minutes, police teams surrounded the Skoda. The road was blocked off and vehicles driving down on the stretch were diverted.

4. Ambulances were brought to the spot to carry both terrorists to a hospital. Initially, Ajmal Kasab was also assumed dead until policemen noticed some signs of life. He has now emerged as the main lead for investigators.

 

[Alden]

Elliot Ness was clearly NOT an Untouchable

Don't poo-poo the Enfield/.303 for street to street. 5.56x45? Really bad choice -- a heavy blade of grass, or thin plasterboard, sends it zipping into oblivian. Remember WE starting urgently drawing M-14's to secure Panama City... The US Gov't contracts for 25-rnd. 7.62x51 mags today for the current engagements for a reason. And what's that relatively new one -- 6.8mm? lol One SEAL buddy used to keep a blank face at my argument for the .243 (necked-down .308) as a better all-purpose military cartridge.

And then there's always something to be said for hitting what you aim at. Imagine that -- one shot, one kill. How about 13 shots (2A), one WOUNDING! Christ. Um, no. Not Ala. Budha?! Well, what or whomever. Imagine fixing and firing into those bastards thru damned near anything they were hiding behind -- the cops aught be named, caned, and turned over to the masses for their cowardice.

So, if you HAVE to have a bolt gun in a modern firefight wouldn't it be your .303 Enfields, WWI's "best battle rifle"?

Alden

 

[caerlonie]

The police there were quite obviously inadequate to the task at hand.I doubt in the hands of a well trained user a bolt-action .303, would be in any significant way,inferior to a AK.They simply did not react the way they should have to the threat,that was the problem not the rifles they used.

 

[sjm]

I just saw the news on tv and it showed on CCTV 2 shithead muslims with AK47's shooting at 2 policeman but the police only had 1 rifle and took turns shooting back at the terrorists!! The rifle was a Lee Enfield but not sure if No1 or No4 .303 or the Indian 7.62mm model.

 

[bonny]

When the .303 is there, can the Royals be far?

From the Times of India -

UK royal was at heritage hotel just before attack

Mumbai: A British royal had stayed at the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel just before the terrorists struck, The Times London has reported.
Princess Eugenie, the second daughter of the Duke of York, was in India as part of her gap-year travels. However, a royal source confirmed that the 18-year-old princess had left Mumbai before the hotel was attacked. The princess was never at risk, the source said, despite unconfirmed reports that one of the terrorists was shot dead in the bedroom where she had slept. She had been accompanied by a Scotland Yard royal protection officer.
Princess Eugenie and her two school friends left for a trip to Central Asia two weeks ago to learn about oriental art. The Duke of York and his former wife, Sarah, Duchess of York, were kept informed and supported their daughter’s decision not to cancel her trip. She left India on Saturday to continue her travels in Asia. There is no suggestion that the gunmen were aware that the princess had been at the hotel.
Last month, Princess Eugenie visited China with her father on her first official royal tour. AGENCIES

 

[bonny]

Well, not everyone was a bum that evening!

Here is something from the Mumbai Mirror -

As armed cops fled CST in face of terror on the night of Nov 26, unarmed head constable Jullu Yadav stayed back to fight. On Wed he was awarded Rs 10 lakh. In this short interview Yadav highlights the tragi-comedy of our forces

SIBI SATHYAN AND VINAY DALVI

Stunning CCTV footage recovered from the night of the attack at Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus where arrested terrorist Qasab and his fellow conspirator Mohammad Ismail Khan killed 57 people, tells a horrifying tale of collective paralysis and one man's heroism.
The grabs of the footage (see page two) show that as soon as the terrorists started firing, a dozen armed cops fled the approaching terrorists. This is borne out by Mumbai Mirror photo editor Sebastian D'souza who was at the spot and who urged armed constables to shoot at the two terrorists, but none of them did.
However, head constable Jullu Yadav of the Railway Protection Police who was unarmed, was the only who after initially rushing away returned and tried to take on the terrorists by flinging a chair at them and then grabbing a rifle from one of his armed colleagues and taking aim.
On Wednesday the railways announced a reward of Rs 10 lakh for his brave act. This short interview with Yadav, 52, who originally hails from Benaras but who has lived in Dombivili all his life, is a telling commentary of the tragi-comedy that marks our security agencies.
When was the last time you picked up a gun?
It's been almost a year. It was in January when we went for our annual training and practised shooting at the Thane-Pokhran range.
On the night of the 26th we saw all of your colleagues run away, what made you stay back to fight?
I'm the head constable, so when my constables went away I thought it was my duty to stay and fight back.
Why didn't you have a gun that night?
I did not have a gun because there was a shortage of guns. I asked one of the GRP constables to fire at them but he was scared, so I took his gun and fired two rounds at them. Though my heart was thumping, and I was scared, I wanted to return their shots.
You also flung a chair at them.
Yes, I wanted to distract them.
What will you do with the Rs 10 lakh that you're being awarded?
I've just heard about it on TV. I have three sons, one is an insurance agent with LIC, another runs a shop and the youngest son is studying in class XII. I will use the money for their well being.


1.
10.01 pm
News of the terrorists entering CST Station spreads. A number of armed GRP cops go into a huddle to discuss the situation, and make a plan of action

2.
10.04 pm
It takes a few minutes to plan the course of 'action' - which evidently means leaving the CST Station in a tearing hurry

3.
10.10 pm
Only two of the cops remain in the by-now deserted station. One on the extreme right (circled, with a gun) and Jullu Yadav (left), head constable, RPF, who's unarmed. Yadav gestures across to the other cop to fire

4.
10.11 pm
In a true act of bravery, Jullu Yadav runs across to the armed GRP cop (follow arrow), leaving himself open to the line of fire

5.
10.11 pm
Yadav reaches the other side, picks up a chair and hurls it (follow arrow) across the station to confuse the terrorists (circled) who are now walking towards them

6.
10. 12 pm
Yadav grabs the gun from the other cop and opens fire at the terrorists. Mumbai salutes his spirit

 

[bonny]

And this is what Pakistan TV had to say about it all -

Pak TV channel says 26/11 hatched by Hindu Zionists
2 Dec 2008, 2216 hrs IST, Nandita Sengupta, TNN


NEW DELHI: Mumbai's 26/11 was actually a plan hatched by "Hindu Zionists" and "Western Zionists", including the Mossad, said a self-styled Pakistan
security expert on a Pakistan news television show, uploaded on www.hotklix.com.

" Inki shaklein Hinduonwali hain, jis zabaan mein guftagoo kar rahein hain, woh zabaan koi Pakistani istemaal nahin karta hai (They look like Hindus. No Pakistani speaks the language they chatted in)," said Zaid Hamid while referring to the terrorists on the show Mujhe Ikhtilaf Hai (I differ) on Pakistan's News One channel. The sensationalist channel was launched in November last year.

Hamid said that it was a "badly planned" operation that had gone horribly wrong. "9/11 jo Americans ne kiya tha usko bahut khoobsurat camouflage kiya tha. Unhone media mein perception management bahut acchha kiya . Indians ne wahi game repeat karne ki koshish ki, lekin akal to hai nahin . In ahmakon ne complete disaster kiya isko handle karne mein . (The Americans executed the 9/11 attack perfectly. They managed the media very well. The Indians tried to repeat the formula but goofed up. The idiots made a complete mess of it).

He said that the attackers wore saffron Hindu Zionist bands, which no Muslim would tie. Hamid also said that within the first 5 minutes of the attack, the three ATS policemen investigating the network of terror within India's security agencies and radical right were killed.

 

[bonny]

Another Lee Enfield pic. Maintaining vigil by the sea shore.