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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Originally Posted 9/03 gustav
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gustav

Just acquired a Krieghoff conversion Carcano short rifle? and am looking for a source of info. about same. First, the reciever is marked with the HK in a circle on top and a s/n 70xx on the side. Serial number is also on barrel along with what looks like an original s/n (064845), 1940XVIII, GARDONE V.T. and a post April/May, 1940 German firing proof. 7.9 is stamped on the barrel flange and the original 65 is on the fixed rear sight. The gun also headspaces correctly for the 7.9mm Mauser. The rifle has a bayonet lug champed to the barrel ahead of the upper band and the stock and upper band are grooved for a folding knife type bayonet. I have been told that only a few of these were converted for the Volksturm in early 1945. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.
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WaPrüf2

The "converted for Volkssturm" tale keeps coming up with reference to these Krieghoff conversions but so far as I know nobody can prove it. The Volkssturm did use large numbers of captured Italian rifles and they appear in innumerable photos of VS units but so far as I know there are no photos of the Krieghoff conversions in VS use - they should be easy to spot because they have a German-style SINGLE recoil bolt in the stock.
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War is Peace

Interesting rifles. Additional information is always welcome.

(see bottom of page for thumb pics 9/07)

Download Attachment: 82.99 KB
Download Attachment: 121.25 KB
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Carcano

They were *never* converted to 7,92 mm for the Volkssturm. The Volkssturm was issued only unaltered 6,5 mm guns with ammo: M 91/41 rifles, M 91/38 cavalry carbines, some M 91 rifles. The (genuine) German conversions were Heereswaffenamt projects undertaken in various locations. See the Carcano bibliography.

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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WaPrüf2

Amen, A. Eichener!
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gustav

Thanks for the information guys. It's pretty obvious that I need some good reference books regarding Carcanos, in particular the HK converted ones. They're a collecting area I really don't know much about. It's a neat looking little rifle though and I was tempted to shoot it. Does anyone have any experience / information regarding shooting them with WWII German standard ball ammo. Naturally I'd check headspace, etc. but I'm wondering about pressures, German versus the original Italian military rounds. It does have a German firing proof so it must have survived at least one proof round in it's life.
--------------------
Franchi

I have a translation of documents from the German Federal Archive in Freiburg (RH12-? complete number can't be read) suppled and translated by Wolfgang Riepe of Germany.

"Der Chef der Heeresrüstung und Oberbefehlshaber des Ersatzheeres verfaßt am 8.Januar. 1945 unter Nummer 1813/43 eine geheime Aktennotiz."

From this document (short description) it appears the Germans started experimenting with converting Carcanos to 7.92 in Jan 1945, and were still testing them in March 1945. They tried to convert the Carcanos to "repeaters" but gave up and made them single shot in March 1945. They tried everything to make them "repeaters" altered Italian clips, their own "stronger clip", even a 4 round "fixed built in magazine". They couldn't get them to function reliably, and didn't like the drop out clip. They were originally going to issue the 8mm rifles to the Army but they weren't accurate enough or reliable. They were then going to issue them to the Volksstrum but decided against this too. They decided to issue them for "auxiliary duties" and factory guards.
David Franchi

P.S. Alexander, did I send you this info?
--------------------
DocAV

[qb]Work was done in Klagenfurt (Austrian Tyrol) by HK (Krieghoff) in 1945 [/qb]

Other sources say "Sterzing". Which is correct ? (German Südtirol, Italian Alto Adige).

[Originally posted by DocAV: Work was done in Klagenfurt (Austrian Tyrol) by HK (Krieghoff) in 1945 on a small batch of M91/38s, and then these were used by the SS-Polizei battalion "Bozen" (Bolzano) in the Italian Tyrol (Alto Adige).
They were single shots, fitted with two recoil bolts(one at rec.ring, one in back of rear rec. screw) and rec. marked "S", and grooved for longer cartridge. Bolt face opened out. Example in Museum in the area of capture. See "Il 91" (1967) by Simone, Belogi & Grimaldi, Olimpia Editore, Florence.
NO other German WW II conversions known, or documented.

regards, Doc AV]
--------------------
Franchi

Doc AV, Sounds like:
"Example in Museum in the area of capture. See "Il 91" (1967) by Simone, Belogi & Grimaldi, Olimpia Editore, Florence." got the German H&K (Krieghoff) rifles mixed up with the 8mm Carcano M38TS & Cavalry carbines made "New" by the Italians from 1938 to 1942. The Italians produced 20,000 8mm carbines (by serials reported).

German H&K Carcanos only had one German style recoil bolt, the Italian 8mm had two Italian style recoil bolts. The German H&K receiver (on single shot models) was not grooved/cut or marked with an "S", the Italian 8mm was. They didn't have to groove/cut the receiver on the single shot as they weren't loaded with a clip.

German Federal Archive in Freiburg, Reference # RH-12" which Wolfgang Riepe translated into English. States modifications were by " Umänderrung bei Fa. Krieghoff, Werk Glashütte, Gabelgrund/Thür." (This is translated to: modifications by the House Krieghoff, Establishment Glashütte, Gabelgrund/Thuringia).
It does state "There are three plants charged to produce an output of 5000 rifle conversions daily Cautious estimate will expect only 500 a day".
These files contain discussions by the Chief of engineering at the Waffenamt WaA, Infantry-school in Döberitz, and Supreme Commander or the Recruit-army (levy) about converting Carcanos, testing them, their faults etc. The first document is dated Jan. 8, 45 ( Der Chef der Heeresrüstung und Oberbefehlshaber des Eratzheeres verfaBt am 8. Januar. 1945 unter Nummer 1813/43 eine geheime Aktennotiz)
The way I read this information, these 8mm "HK" weapons were originally going to be for the German Army, but they couldn't get them to work as repeaters, and didn't like the "drop-out" clip so they were then going to be for the Volksstrum. In further testing they were not accurate enough and they decided they should be used for "auxiliary duties" and to use Italian rifles in 6.5 cal. for the Volksstrum and factory guards.
By serials reported "HK" produced approx. 3000 8mm conversions of the Italian M38 short rifle, M41 long rifle, and M38 carbine. (about 1000 of each)
Regards, David Franchi
---------------
Carcano

A very necessary addition to and modification of my own previously held opinion - molte grazie !

So these guns were post facto "destined" for the Vokssturm when the Army judged them unsuitable, but from all sources which I know, it appears that they never got to be actually issued to, or even used by the Volkssturm, unlike the normal 6,5 mm Carcanos
----------------
gustav

Thanks to everyone for your time and information. It's greatly appreciated.
----------------
WaPrüf2

CARCANOS USED BY SS POLICE REGIMENT BOZEN
The few photos I have seen of this unit armed with Carcanos show them armed with either M91 or M41 rifles (the detail is not clear enough to determine which type is in use) of normal configuration, i.e., without additional recoil bolt. Personnel so armed are also equipped with two two-pocket Italian cartridge pouches.
CARCANO CARBINES IN HITLER YOUTH USE ?
H.W. Koch in his book on the HJ quotes an HJ member who states that at one point there was an attempt to oufit either his HJ or DJ unit (it isn't clear which) with M91 carbines "converted to our [i.e., German 8x57] caliber" but that the weapons blew up and they were afraid of them. Our copy of the book is off the shelf at the moment and if it reappears I'll post a full citation and quote.
-------------------
Carcano

Does anyone have a photo of German police troops in northern Italy with such "8mm Carcano", which could be posted ? I remember such a photo being referred to occasionally, but I would like to see it ?

Mille grazie,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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pip
Franchi
would you mind posting a copy of the orignal german doc?
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Franchi

Hi, I can't post a copy of the Doc. it is 13 pages which is too much typing for a "one finger typist".
I can "Snail Mail" you a copy if you want to send me your address.
David Franchi
[email protected]
--------------------
Arditi

Franchi,
Pip is out of town until Friday. I'll get word to him on your generous offer to send. Many Thanks, Arditi
--------------------
Merle

For what it's worth, I would not shoot any mil-spec 8mm in a Carcano. I don't know the pressure levels of commercial 8mm, but it is pretty mild by comparison. I base this on the differences in pressure. I would shoot them with handloads that developed the same (or even better, less) pressure than the original 6,5 round. The 8mm uses heavier bullets than the 6,5, so less recoil would benefit both shooter & rifle. Plus, I'm fond of my face in it's current configuration.

Merle
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Testwise reposting of the same thread in another format. This one shows the dates. How do you like it?

gustav
Posted - 09/29/2003 : 8:43:32 PM
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Just acquired a Krieghoff conversion Carcano short rifle? and am looking for a source of info. about same.
First, the reciever is marked with the HK in a circle on top and a s/n 70xx on the side. Serial number is also on barrel along with what looks like an original s/n (064845), 1940XVIII, GARDONE V.T. and a post April/May, 1940 German firing proof. 7.9 is stamped on the barrel flange and the original 6.5 is on the fixed rear sight. The gun also headspaces correctly for the 7.9mm Mauser. The rifle has a bayonet lug champed to the barrel ahead of the upper band and the stock and upper band are grooved for a folding knife type bayonet.
I have been told that only a few of these were converted for the Volksturm in early 1945. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated.
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Edited by - Carcano on 01/08/2004 4:46:00 PM



WaPrüf2
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 12:06:10 PM
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The "converted for Volkssturm" tale keeps coming up with reference to these Krieghoff conversions but so far as I know nobody can prove it. The Volkssturm did use large numbers of captured Italian rifles and they appear in innumerable photos of VS units but so far as I know there are no photos of the Krieghoff conversions in VS use - they should be easy to spot because they have a German-style SINGLE recoil bolt in the stock.



War is Peace
Posted - 09/30/2003 : 3:56:06 PM
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Interesting rifles. Additional information is always welcome.

Download Attachment:
82.99 KB

Download Attachment:
121.25 KB



Carcano
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 2:09:08 PM
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They were *never* converted to 7,92 mm for the Volkssturm. The Volkssturm was issued only unaltered 6,5 mm guns with ammo: M 91/41 rifles, M 91/38 cavalry carbines, some M 91 rifles. The (genuine) German conversions were Heereswaffenamt projects undertaken in various locations. See the Carcano bibliography.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 10/01/2003 : 2:34:30 PM
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Amen, A. Eichener!



gustav
Posted - 10/04/2003 : 8:05:44 PM
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Thanks for the information guys. It's pretty obvious that I need some good reference books regarding Carcanos, in particular the HK converted ones. They're a collecting area I really don't know much about. It's a neat looking little rifle though and I was tempted to shoot it. Does anyone have any experience / information regarding shooting them with WWII German standard ball ammo. Naturally I'd check headspace, etc. but I'm wondering about pressures, German versus the original Italian military rounds. It does have a German firing proof so it must have survived at least one proof round in it's life.



Franchi
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 8:07:59 PM
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I have a translation of documents from the German Federal Archive in Freiburg (RH12-? complete number can't be read) suppled and translated by Wolfgang Riepe of Germany.

"Der Chef der Heeresrüstung und Oberbefehlshaber des Ersatzheeres verfaßt am 8.Januar. 1945 unter Nummer 1813/43 eine geheime Aktennotiz."

From this document (short description) it appears the Germans started experimenting with converting Carcanos to 7.92 in Jan 1945, and were still testing them in March 1945. They tried to convert the Carcanos to "repeaters" but gave up and made them single shot in March 1945. They tried everything to make them "repeaters" altered Italian clips, their own "stronger clip", even a 4 round "fixed built in magazine". They couldn't get them to function reliably, and didn't like the drop out clip. They were originally going to issue the 8mm rifles to the Army but they weren't accurate enough or reliable. They were then going to issue them to the Volksstrum but decided against this too. They decided to issue them for "auxiliary duties" and factory guards.
David Franchi

P.S. Alexander, did I send you this info?
e-mail
[email protected]



DocAV
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 09:24:21 AM
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quote:
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[qb]Work was done in Klagenfurt (Austrian Tyrol) by HK (Krieghoff) in 1945 [/qb]
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Other sources say "Sterzing". Which is correct ? (German Südtirol, Italian Alto Adige).

OOPS !

I apologize, Doc !!

Mea culpa, I accidentally hit the editing button, instead of "reply". The first time blunder since I moderate here. No evil intent, but it's too late to restitute. Can you repost, please ?

Contritely,
Alexander
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Edited by - Carcano on 10/06/2003 12:50:24 PM



Franchi
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 1:11:12 PM
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[Originally posted by DocAV :Work was done in Klagenfurt (Austrian Tyrol) by HK (Krieghoff) in 1945 on a small batch of M91/38s, and then these were used by the SS-Polizei battalion "Bozen" (Bolzano) in the Italian Tyrol (Alto Adige).
They were single shots, fitted with two recoil bolts(one at rec.ring, one in back of rear rec. screw) and rec. marked "S", and grooved for longer cartridge. Bolt face opened out. Example in Museum in the area of capture. See "Il 91" (1967) by Simone, Belogi & Grimaldi, Olimpia Editore, Florence.
NO other German WW II conversions known, or documented.

regards, Doc AV]
--------------

Doc AV,
Sounds like:
"Example in Museum in the area of capture. See "Il 91" (1967) by Simone, Belogi & Grimaldi, Olimpia Editore, Florence."
got the German H&K (Krieghoff) rifles mixed up with the 8mm Carcano M38TS & Cavalry carbines made "New" by the Italians from 1938 to 1942. The Italians produced 20,000 8mm carbines (by serials reported).

German H&K Carcanos only had one German style recoil bolt, the Italian 8mm had two Italian style recoil bolts. The German H&K receiver (on single shot models) was not grooved/cut or marked with an "S", the Italian 8mm was. They didn't have to groove/cut the receiver on the single shot as they weren't loaded with a clip.

German Federal Archive in Freiburg, Reference # RH-12" which Wolfgang Riepe translated into English. States modifications were by " Umänderrung bei Fa. Krieghoff, Werk Glashütte, Gabelgrund/Thür." (This is translated to: modifications by the House Krieghoff, Establishment Glashütte, Gabelgrund/Thuringia).
It does state "There are three plants charged to produce an output of 5000 rifle conversions daily. Cautious estimate will expect only 500 a day".
These files contain discussions by the Chief of engineering at the Waffenamt WaA, Infantry-school in Döberitz, and Supreme Commander or the Recruit-army (levy) about converting Carcanos, testing them, their faults etc. The first document is dated Jan. 8, 45 ( Der Chef der Heeresrüstung und Oberbefehlshaber des Eratzheeres verfaBt am 8. Januar. 1945 unter Nummer 1813/43 eine geheime Aktennotiz)
The way I read this information, these 8mm "HK" weapons were originally going to be for the German Army, but they couldn't get them to work as repeaters, and didn't like the "drop-out" clip so they were then going to be for the Volksstrum. In further testing they were not accurate enough and they decided they should be used for "auxiliary duties" and to use Italian rifles in 6.5 cal. for the Volksstrum and factory guards.
By serials reported "HK" produced approx. 3000 8mm conversions of the Italian M38 short rifle, M41 long rifle, and M38 carbine. (about 1000 of each)

Regards, David Franchi
e-mail
[email protected]



Carcano
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 1:32:05 PM
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A very necessary addition to and modification of my own previously held opinion - molte grazie !

So these guns were post facto "destined" for the Vokssturm when the Army judged them unsuitable, but from all sources which I know, it appears that they never got to be actually issued to, or even used by the Volkssturm, unlike the normal 6,5 mm Carcanos

Regards and thanks for mending my accident,



WaPrüf2
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 1:39:05 PM
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CARCANOS USED BY SS POLICE REGIMENT BOZEN
The few photos I have seen of this unit armed with Carcanos show them armed with either M91 or M41 rifles (the detail is not clear enough to determine which type is in use) of normal configuration, i.e., without additional recoil bolt. Personnel so armed are also equipped with two two-pocket Italian cartridge pouches.
CARCANO CARBINES IN HITLER YOUTH USE ?
H.W. Koch in his book on the HJ quotes an HJ member who states that at one point there was an attempt to oufit either his HJ or DJ unit (it isn't clear which) with M91 carbines "converted to our [i.e., German 8x57] caliber" but that the weapons blew up and they were afraid of them. Our copy of the book is off the shelf at the moment and if it reappears I'll post a full citation and quote.



Carcano
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 4:50:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have a photo of German police troops in northern Italy with such "8mm Carcano", which could be posted ? I remember such a photo being referred to occasionally, but I would like to see it ?



pip
Posted - 11/27/2004 : 5:14:15 PM
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Franchi
would you mind posting a copy of the orignal german doc?



Franchi
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 11:12:08 AM
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Hi, I can't post a copy of the Doc. it is 13 pages which is too much typing for a "one finger typist".
I can "Snail Mail" you a copy if you want to send me your address.
David Franchi
[email protected]



Arditi
Posted - 11/29/2004 : 7:19:17 PM
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Franchi,
Pip is out of town until Friday. I'll get word to him on your generous offer to send.



Merle
Posted - 12/11/2004 : 09:43:48 AM
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For what it's worth, I would not shoot any mil-spec 8mm in a Carcano. I don't know the pressure levels of commercial 8mm, but it is pretty mild by comparison. I base this on the differences in pressure. I would shoot them with handloads that developed the same (or even better, less) pressure than the original 6,5 round. The 8mm uses heavier bullets than the 6,5, so less recoil would benefit both shooter & rifle. Plus, I'm fond of my face in it's current configuration.
 

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Here is a further very brief and condensed summary by David Franchi:

Franchi
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 5:16:28 PM
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First the German firm of Heinrich Krieghoff (HK) converted M41 long rifles, M38 short rifles and M38 cavalry carbines to 7.9 (8mm) Mauser (about 1000 of each).
German H&K Carcano conversions only have one German style recoil lug bolt (usually marked with a "G"), the Italian 8mm had two Italian recoil bolts. The German H&K receiver (on single shot models, 98% were single shot)) were not grooved/cut at the front like the Italian 8mm and most Italian receivers were also marked with a large "S". They didn't have to groove/cut the German (HK) receiver (on the single shot) as they weren't loaded with a clip. The Italian 8mm will have the rear sight marked 7,9 or 7,92, German (HK) model sights are not marked 7,9/7,92 they still have the original caliber, sometimes lined/marked out. The German (HK) will have 7.9 on the barrel step at the receiver with (HK) below this on the receiver. The (HK) will have a small German test proof on the right side of the barrel near the receiver (there are no other German test proofs of acceptance marks, except some will have "HZa" marked stocks). The (HK) will have an added "H" prefix serial on the barrel, left side of the stock edge by the receiver, and electric penciled on the bolt body. The (HK) should also have a wood magazine block but many of these were lost or removed by the U.S. G.I.'s etc. There are also some changes in the sights, but the above should help tell an Italian 8mm from a German conversion. David Franchi
 

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Weaver's book "Desperate Measures" talks about a German document that indicates a number of 8mm conversions undertaken in Italian factories, presumably under German guidance,seperate of the Krieghoff's. The approximate number listed appears to match the 8mm Carcanos that are currently in this country in large numbers. Is the general consensus since Weaver's book that these are RSI period guns, postwar or both? This still appears to be a hotly disagreed with area amongst Carcano collectors/historians and I see few people talk about the German document that talks of non-Krieghoff 8mm conversions performed in Northern Italy. Thoughts?
Regards, Arditi
 

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Weaver does talk about the Krieghoff's and refers to German documents about these particular rifles. If memory serves the numbers listed as Krieghoff make appear to estimate closely to theorized numbers by collectors. The rifles referred to frequently, as Italian make 8mm, also appear referred to in German documents as being made in Northern Italy in the 44-45 period as well. Is this as you understand it?
Alexander, I'm not familiar with the Krieghoff factory book. Could you expound a bit more please? I'd be curious if it matches what I remember from a brief reading of Weaver.
Regards, Arditi
 

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Hans-Jürgen Fritze:
Krieghoff. Geschichte einer deutschen Waffenfabrik, Suhler Zeit.
2003 Suhl: Peter-Arfmann-Verlag, 264 pp., in-4°

The pp. 88-91 deal with the Italian branch factory Sterzing (former Italian Gondar barracks) and the 8mm conversions there and in the German site Glaswerk Unterneubrunn (sometimes misnamed Gabelgrund).

Alexander
 

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Interesting. Were the so-called Italian made(non-Krieghoff) 8mm ts and cav carbines made in Krieghoff associated factories in Northern Italy? If that last sentence makes sense. :} How about numbers mentioned of both single lug reinforced and double reinforced type? Have you developed further your thoughts on the 8mm conversions? Thank you for the sharing of information!
Regards, Arditi
 

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Another report

WaPrüf2
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 1:38:42 PM
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RE TERNI 1940/XVIII original SN (on stock) BW/3007; German SN H7047; butt swivel present, barrel band w/o swivel; usual German features: replaced front sight, modified bolt, wooden plug, Krieghoff blue; some original markings stippled over, original barrel SN struck over w a series of Os; HK in circle on receiver; 7,9 on barrel shoulder; German pressure proof right side of barrel; retains CAL 6.5 marking; single recoil lug w G; no German SN on left side of stock.
 

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Reconstructing a Krieghoff-converted Carcano?

It's terrible that the photos have been lost! Nevertheless, the information in this thread is interesting enough as it is. A.E.

* * *

SheepRtheBest
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 09:21:01 AM
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unfortunately, this carcano has been sporterized. another member gave me some good info on the gun, and mentioned splicing in the nose part of the stock and putting on the rest of the parts. i want to know aproximately how much it is worth now and how much it would be worth with the repair and replacement parts. also, i want to know how to splice in the nosepiece of the stock. thanks



airdale
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 10:30:07 AM
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Grooved dowels and Brownells Acraglas Gel would be a good way to re-attach the piece back on the stock.

DMala or Franchi could probably give you a better estimate of the value than I can so I will leave that to one of them. Regardless of the value you have an interesting piece of history for your collection.



DMala
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 10:38:48 PM
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Well, it is very subjective, because there are very few of those occasionally available for sale. I would still give it a value of about 400 dollars, and suggest if you have the money to have a competent stockmaker restore it. If you buy a short rifle stock from Sarco, and pay maybe 2-250$ for the restoration, you would still end up relatively even with its value after being (properly) fixed. In any case even as is it is a valuable piece. By the way the bolt should have been electropenciled to match.
And now the questions: What is the HK serial number? Does the buttstock number (Italian) match the original barrel number? Is there an HK number on the stock? Has the front sight been replaced? Are there wrench marks on the barrel? Is there a wood spacer in the magazine?



DMala
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 10:40:44 PM
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OK, ignore two of the questions, I see now that the front sight was replaced (yours looks correct), and I do not see wrench marks on the barrel.



SheepRtheBest
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 11:27:11 AM
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HK serial number is 6621, original serail number is all pinged out and if i had to guess it would be 543697 or 54397. i can see "7.35 MM" written in the left side of the stock near the action. it seems to be in pencil, it is very light. bolt is electropenciled 6621. would i have to take apart the stock to see some numbers under there? no wood spacer in the mag.



03man
Posted - 03/30/2006 : 10:52:20 PM
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I would keep it as it.

Otherwise, buy a complete stock and hardware and change it over. Seems any original stock markings are gone, or don't exist, or am I missing something?

If the stock is worth restoring, I can do the wood work for you.



War is Peace
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 04:36:43 AM
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Originally posted by 03man
I would keep it as it.

Otherwise, buy a complete stock and hardware and change it over. Seems any original stock markings are gone, or don't exist, or am I missing something?

If the stock is worth restoring, I can do the wood work for you.
Just looking at this poor rifle makes me sad. It is a worthy candidate for restoration.

The feature which ties the butchered stock to the rifle is not as much the original Italian numbering but rather the unique German recoil bolt. I would be surprised if there were not an HK serial number stamped in the stock as well.

I only wish that the idiot with the saw could know that his craftmanship flushed about $700 down the drain. I hope that killing Bambi was worth it.



DMala
Posted - 03/31/2006 : 1:26:39 PM
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In my opinion, the sporterized stock has also well evident the Italian stamps, and if there is no HK number on it, that's also something that should be preserved.

SheepR, off the top of my head i do not rememer that typically there are German stamps under the wood, but I would suggest to take a look just in case. You still have a very good piece as is.
 

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8mm Cavalry Carbine Converted by Krieghoff

Prez1981
Posted - 06/03/2006 : 10:35:52 PM
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I was going through a few of my carcanos this afternoon and found some interesting serial numbers and proof marks that provoked a few questions.

1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055. It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. I assume this is in the last hundred or so made, as Desperate Measures indicates Cavalry Carbine numbers into the 9700 range (off the top of my head). I assume this was converted in March or April 1945? It has a well worn Carcano sling still attached. The stock is a m/m HK stock and the bolt is electro-penciled to a different rifle on the bolt body and cocking piece. Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?
(...)
Any thoughts, opinions, or information would be greatly appreciated! I'm kind of new to Carcano research/collecting.

Thank you!!!



DMala
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 2:37:26 PM
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SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.

Originally posted by Prez1981

1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055. It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?
YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER. FUNNY, I BOUGHT IT IN 2001 AND SOLD IT A FEW YEARS LATER. I AM HAPPY IT IS IN GOOD HANDS.



John Wall
Posted - 06/11/2006 : 08:38:50 AM
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Originally posted by DMala
SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.
Originally posted by Prez1981

1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055. It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?
YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER.
Mine is serial number K583

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DocAV
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 03:11:59 AM
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The Sling in the last two photos appears to be a cut down ("lift the dot" snap removed) M1 carbine sling, probably applied Post-war, when the US supplied Italy with a lot of US equipment.



John Wall
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 12:54:42 PM
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Hi Doc,
Actually, it was attached by the US soldier who brought this Carcano carbine home. After the old gentleman passed away 8-10 years ago, the family eventually sold off his souvenirs, which included this carbine and a pre-1935 VZ.24 which had been completely refurbished and reblued at some Axis depot. I now own both pieces. When the war ended, the soldier's unit was serving in Czechoslovakia.



DMala
Posted - 06/21/2006 : 11:20:57 PM
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Originally posted by John Wall
Mine is serial number K583
Interesting, thanks. Note the "K" made with a chisel. Congratulations for the nice find.



DMala
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 2:55:05 PM
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Originally posted by DMala
SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.
Originally posted by Prez1981
1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine -(...) It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?
YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER.(...)
Apologies, I just found an error in the sorting of my data, I actually have a record for a serial number K11xx.



Prez1981
Posted - 06/23/2006 : 2:59:49 PM
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Regarding the H vs. the K serial number block...
I heard that some of these HK conversions were made at different locations. Did the serial numbers denote this difference or did K simply follow the H block? Are all K blocks carbines?



Franchi
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 8:04:24 PM
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John Wall has a very interesting "HK" carbine with the "K" prefix serial.. I went though my data on German "HK" conversions looking for info on any other "K" serials.
.
"HK" German conversions of Italian rifles were done in model/serial blocks.
.
H6000 to H7000 range were Italian M38 Short Rifles.
.
H7000 to H8000 ranges were Italian M41 Long Rifles.
.
H8000 to H9999? were Italian Cavalry Carbines.
.
There are also a few M41 Long Rifles reported without an "H" letter prefix (I own #4527).
.
I did find one carbine H9485 with a mis-matched "HK" stock serial numbered K1001.
To me this indicates the Germans produced their "HK" Cavalry Carbine conversions to the end of the H9999 block then went to a "K" serial prefix block? They used the "K" prefix like they used the "H"prefix from "HK"? The Germans didn't like to use the letter "I" or "J" in serial numbers.
John Wall's carbine is an FNA Brescia which used an adjustable rear sight, note the adjusting leaf has been removed, just like the Germans did on the M41 rifle, to make the sight "fixed". Also the 7,9 is on the side of the barrel, not on the top where it is normally placed, and the Germans didn't mark out the original Italian serial on the barrel or stock.
.
John, is there a "G" on the recoil lug?
Is the bolt electric penciled with the serial?
Is there any sign of an "HZa" or "WaA" on the lower edge of the butt stock spine?
.
Don't know about the sling, it looks thinner than U.S. a carbine sling. I have a German used M24 Yugoslavian Mauser with a similar web sling sewn on.
.
Nice find with an unusual serial.
David Franchi
 

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Serial numbers of Krieghoff Conversions

WaPrüf2
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 7:36:09 PM
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Anybody compiling? Hobbs (1996) indicates:

M38 short rifles: H6000 to H7000; 7052 has turned up.
M41 rifles: H7000 - H7818 highest SN found per Hobbs
M91 and M38 cavalry: H8000 to H9536 highest SN found per Hobbs

Any specimens of each type extending the SN ranges reported bavckwards or forwards?



Arditi
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 11:18:45 PM
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Let's compile. I'm curious as to how many have survived. With the small serial number range listed by Hobb's one would think not many survived, but it appears that there are quite a few out there in collections.

M38 Short Rifle repeater
Nazi serial# H6284
Has all documented characteristics of an "HK" 8mm conversion...anything else needed?



WaPrüf2
Posted - 07/27/2006 : 11:35:29 PM
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Probably we should note if the single-shot or repeater version.

My contributions:
M41 rifle H7707 single-shot
M38 carbine H9404 single-shot
M38 short rifle H7047 single-shot

M38 short rifle H7052 (probably single shot; reliably reported)

I'm not sure we accomplish much by just listing those we have or know of - more to the point is adjusting the SN ranges to establish a better idea of production figures for the various versions.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 10:52:00 PM
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What? Only 5?



WaPrüf2
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 09:26:03 AM
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M38 short rifle single-shot SN H7021 reported elsewhere on this board; appears to be in the white, but may have been overcleaned at some point.



DMala
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 11:39:47 AM
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Originally posted by WaPrüf2
M38 carbine H9404 single-shot
Do you mean M38 Cav carbine? Thanks



WaPrüf2
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 1:03:55 PM
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Yes; cavalry carbine.



DMala
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 1:27:04 PM
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OK, then they go up to the K11xx range
 

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I have shortened and condensed this thread a wee little bit.

preachere
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 8:15:45 PM
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I picked up a couple of guns today and this was one of them. From my research (the past 3+ hours) I have surmised that this is an extremely rare Heinrich Krieghoff M-38 Carcano Short Rifle. I am interested in any and all thoughts that will further my understanding of this rifle.

At first I thought he had polished the heck out of the metal but after removing it from the stock and handguard, I found that the barrel and magazine are shiny, or in the white. There are plenty of pictures but they're worth waiting for.

There is a wooden plug in the magazine that is permanently pinned in two places. There is an HK in a circle on the top of the receiver. The old serial number has been defaced and the new one is stamped on the receiver and barrel shank, both starting with the letter H which is proper for Krieghoff builds. There is also a Nazi proof mark/acceptance stamp on the shank which is the typical spread-wing eagle over a swastika in a wreath.

I also thought that the stock had been duffle cut, but upon closer examination I'm not so sure. The last very interesting thing about this is the angle of the stock. It's bent! It still snaps to my shoulder very comfortably, but there is a definite cant to it.

Let's hear some opinions on this. How rare are these, how many were made, what's it worth, any other links or information that would help me with this, etc.?

All pictures were gone, alas.

Dirty bird.

This was found stamped on the bottom of the barrel shank.

The next two pictures show the new serial number next to the defaced old one.
The H is pretty well struck in the one on the receiver, but weaker on the shank.

Regards,
Eric



WaPrüf2
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 09:18:05 AM
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I think if you do a search on "Krieghoff" and/or "8mm Carcanos" in this forum you will finfd a number of discussions on these. For what its worth, I haven't seen one in the white before.
Also see Darrin Weaver, DESPERATE MEASURES.



Arditi
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 3:26:25 PM
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Hate to see that happen to a hard to find rifle.



preachere
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 10:05:28 PM
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Hate to see what happen? Perhaps the gentleman's father, as well as the son, did indeed polish all the blue off of this rifle, but if they did then they removed the barreled action from the receiver when they did it and polished all the metal on the barrel and magazine that would normally be under the woodline as well. (...)

Regards,
Eric



preachere
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 10:43:24 PM
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I was guessing that what you hated to see was a rifle polished to the white. Maybe it was the bent stock? I wasn't sure that the stock was bent; I thought maybe they made some like that. I've since found out that stocks can warp this way due to improper storage.

Regards,
Eric



commandpostman
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 03:42:47 AM
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Nice find Preachere! It may take some research and patience but it's not inconceivable that it is original. I am no expert on Carcanos but I have seen enough unique firearms out there to know that everyone doesn't always fit the mold.

Is it possible that it was a late war conversion that didn't have the blueing due to time constraints or because it was being re-arsenaled?



WaPrüf2
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 09:29:13 AM
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M38 SR H7047 blued.
Is there any evidence of an electropencilled SN on the bolt of H7021?



preachere
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 10:31:51 PM
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Originally posted by WaPrüf2
M38 SR H7047 blued.
Is there any evidence of an electropencilled SN on the bolt of H7021 ?
No sir, there sure isn't. There is the word ROCCA inside a rectangle on the safety though, and the number 19 inside of a diamond on the underside of the anvil though. I believe the 19 was the year the bolt was made (1919) but the ROCCA has me stumped.

I will have to take the action out of the stock and take some detailed images of what's there. The guy that sold it to me said that he used chrome polish to get the surface rust off of it from being stored so long. Why can't people just leave well enough alone? It is entirely possible that he polished the blue off of this, or his father before him.

Whereas it wouldn't be original, it could be reblued but that stock is the real kicker. I wouldn't have paid him as much as I did if I had seen that right off the bat. At least the stock isn't German marked but it does have the stock reinforcing stud in it. If it weren't for the bend it's in amazingly great shape.

Regards,
Eric



DMala
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 12:00:17 AM
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Nice find preachere!

A few comments/questions:

- this is the highest number for an HK M91/38SR conversion, lowest is however in the H64xx range

- is the front sight original or an HK replacement?

- What is the original Italian serial number on the barrel, and is the Italian number on the stock matching?

- Bolt cylinder and cocking piece should have a very light electropenciled Hxxxx number. Maybe they were erased during the rust removal process?

- Can you confirm that there is no Hxxxx number on the left side of the stock, by the receiver? That would be similar to the other two I know of.

- The marks on the right of the barrel, by the waffenamt, may be wrench marks left whe the barrel was hastily rebored.

- Is there a small waffenamt on the lower side of the buttstock, several inches behind the trigger guard?

Congratulations again for the nice find.



commandpostman
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 01:18:31 AM
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It is possible to warp that stock back to shape with some time and effort. Not sure if the methods would damage the original wood finish but with some heat, humidity, weight, a frame and pressure you could get her back to shape. The method is similiar to how woodworkers form bends and curves for rocking chairs and such.

If the original finish on the metal has been altered, you might consider a professional restoration to get her back to her former glory. Those rifles are uncommon enough that she deserves to be preserved for future collectors. Just my 2 cents! Good luck with it though!



preachere
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 9:47:37 PM
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DMala- I thought the easiest way to answer your questions was directly after each one, thus the quote below.


quote:
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Originally posted by DMala

Nice find preachere!

A few comments/questions:

- this is the highest number for an HK M91/38SR conversion, lowest is however in the H64xx range

That's great! I thought WaPruf had the highest with H7047 and H7052 reliably reported on? Are theirs strict M-38's and mine is a 91/38?

- is the front sight original or an HK replacement?

I don't know for sure but I can take pictures. There are no markings on it that I can see. It stands pretty tall though.

- What is the original Italian serial number on the barrel, and is the Italian number on the stock matching?

Original serial number is XC5469
Original stock serial number is BZ9645 (non-matching)

- Bolt cylinder and cocking piece should have a very light electropenciled Hxxxx number. Maybe they were erased during the rust removal process?

No sir, neither have a number on them of any kind nor any signs that one was ever present (i.e. no excessive scrub marks, just the drag marks on both sides of the bolt body from the receiver walls).

- Can you confirm that there is no Hxxxx number on the left side of the stock, by the receiver? That would be similar to the other two I know of.

There is no Hxxxx number on the left of the stock below the receiver. This stock is in great shape so it's real easy to look for stampings.

- The marks on the right of the barrel, by the waffenamt, may be wrench marks left whe the barrel was hastily rebored.

I think you're right because there are some at the woodline (hard to see in the pics) on both sides. I'll take some pictures of them when I take the receiver out of the stock again soon.

- Is there a small waffenamt on the lower side of the buttstock, several inches behind the trigger guard?

No, there are no waffenamt anywhere on this stock.

Congratulations again for the nice find.

Thank you for your help and information, it is greatly appreciated. I'll be taking some detailed pictures soon and will post them separately for your consideration.



DMala
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 1:25:02 PM
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WaPruf is right, there are higher reported numbers for the same model. Thanks for the reply. The original Carcano front sight has a rounded top profile, raised towards the back. The HK replacements are also slanted up towards the back, but with a straight edge.



Caribou
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 05:00:16 AM
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You might get ahold of the "Collector series" book, "Last Ditch Weapons Of The Third Reich". Its rather detailed as to your Carcano, and its issue to the Volkssturm, in the last desperate days of WWII. LOTS OF INFO, there.....



Arditi
Posted - 11/11/2006 : 3:02:29 PM
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I think he means the book "Desperate Measures"? I believe it's Collector Grade publications. Correct me if I am wrong. Arditi
 
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