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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone!

I am currently working on a Krag-Jorgensen book that attempts to cover all models of Danish, American, and Norwegian Krag-Jorgensen rifles, along with the story of their development, use, and both Ole Krag and Erik Jorgensen's lives. I've more or less got the American and Norwegian rifle models down with the resources I have, but the Danish models still seem to be a bit elusive when it comes down to find in depth information about their development, production numbers, etc. I do have many books on the Krag-Jorgensen rifles, (Haneviks, Mallory, Poyer, Brophy etc.) and I have read A.N. Hvidt & Bjørn A. Nielsen's work detailing the Danish models of the rifles. Their work has helped tremendously, and I feel I have a firm grasp on the development/creation of the m/1889 and the following carbine models (besides serial number range and production numbers, at least off the top of my head). Though further information on such rifles as the M/1928, M/1928/31 (or 33, I've seen it labelled as both), and the Greenland Rifles has illuded me. I've only really been able to dig up enough information on each of those models to discuss them for 1 or 2 pages, and I feel like there is definitely more information out there. Would any of you happen to know any great resources for the Danish development of these rifles, or their production numbers, dates, etc? Frankly, production numbers and serial number ranges for the Danish rifles, in general, would be appreciated, but I am currently focused on these sporter rifles.

I've seen a few good threads on here discussing the rifles by those who definitely have learnt more about them than I, but unfortunately, since I didn't have an actual account until today, I can't directly message anyone to ask for specifics just yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
Justin
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Snowhunter! :) I know a lot of the posts pertaining to Danish Krag-Jørgensen development on here have been from you. Would you happen to be able to provide Serial Number ranges for M/1928 production (or even better, just general Danish Krag serial numbers per year of production) or perhaps a source to info like that? I've scrolled through the gunboards post history for Danish Krag serial number information but I haven't happened upon any posts detailing serial numbers or production per year, only generalized information on how many rifles/carbines were produced between a certain time period, such as 1890-1923, for example. I could have missed it, but still.

Also any general information you're willing to share on the Greenland rifles is also appreciated! Just trying to round out the Danish section of my book to make sure it is as thorough and detailed as the American and norwegian sections can be :)
 

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The Danish Army sniper rifle was heavily influenced by the Danish Civilian Marksmanship program who early on after the introduction of the Danish Krag to the civilian target shooters also started to custom-made, target Danish Krag rifles using imported German match barrels. Later on, the Danish barrel makers started to make their own match barrels and improved target sights for the Danish Krag. These Danish Krag were also used in the Olympics even where they won gold, by the owners of the Schulz-Larsen rifle company.

To the best of my knowledge, about 300 M 28 "Findskydningsgevaerer" was made for the Danish Army, starting in 1928. However, I have never run onto any particular serial number sequences of the M 28 sniper because the Danes' use of randomly selected Danish Krag action from other production years than 1928 was also used for this particular sniper conversion.

However, all these sniper conversions were also stamped with the "M 28" abbreviation on the action along with the original year of manufacture as well as some provisions was made for attaching a telescopic sight which due to economic restraint never happened. Still, a Danish Army sniper, using only open sight was expected and supposedly be able to service a target out to 800 meters. Perhaps this one was influenced by Hans Christian Andersen's fairytales.

Except for encountering the various standard models of the Danish Krag sold as surplus to Greenlandic Inuit hunters, I have never seen the single-shot "Greenlandic Model" Danish Krag or Lee-Enfield # 4, 8x58R conversions except as pictures and that in spite of having lived in Greenland, I have never seen these supposedly "Greenlandic Models" in Greenland The Danes living in Greenland, who were very aware of and scrounged and treasured any collectible Danish Krag that came their way, never talked about these "Greenlandic Model" Krag of Lee-Enfield # 4, 8x58R conversions either. Could be another story influenced by Hans Christian Andersen's fairytales.

1867/96 conversions of the single-shot Remington Roller with a special lead bullet were sold as surplus and thus circulating in Greenland, and eventually, the ammunition of that one also dried up. A shotgun load with pellets was also available for that one.

Good luck with your book project and feel free to ask again.

Best,

Jonas
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Awesome, thanks for the reply! And thanks for the good luck. It's going to be a big book by its end, probably 600-700 pages, so the encouragement does help! I do have some other questions if you don't mind. Mostly about serial numbers or production info.

I understand that Hvidt listed the following information for production:
4411 - 1890
17202 - 1891
40986 - 1893
50650 - 1899
63079 - 1906
64922 - 1909
75436 - 1910
83268 - 1911 - so. First Cavalry Rifle
88580 - 1914
98047 - 1915
114550 - 1917 - s.a .: First Engineer Rifle
121300 - 1929
125841 - 1944

Has there been any "concrete" information that's come out for each model of Danish Krag that speaks to the final production numbers per model? or information for serial number ranges per production year? I'm assuming there isn't because of the nature of Denmark's converting system, where they would existing guns to other models and they retain the original serial number, which I understand would create a headache for tracking serial numbers. Supposedly the final production number of all rifles together is somehting like 135,000, but i'd like to be able to get total production of each model, as well as serial number ranges. From scrolling through some gunboards history it seems that a user name Amore2 created a database for Danish rifle stock markings and serials which could give me a better idea, but unfortunately all links to the database seem to not be working any longer.

Also, would you happen to have any links to first-hand accounts of the Krag rifles use by troops, civilian shooters, or resistance fighters in the 1940s, and their opinions of the rifles? I'd like to add a section for the Danish rifles which speaks to the fondness or hatred of the rifles by individuals who used them. I currently have plenty of both scathing reviews and glowing reviews by Americans using their Krag rifles and currently have nothing on the Norwegian or Danish rifles. I've been told that the Norwegian military didn't often write of the performance of the rifle during the war, but you never know if someone else did!

Also, I heard that Ole Krag had some early involvement with primer technology early in his career. Is this something you know about? I haven't been able to find much information on him being involved in primer technology.

Thanks in advance,
Justin
 

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Justin, you got the correct production years and numbers from Hvidt's book. The only guesswork is the production of the Danish Krag rifles during WW2 which mostly appears to have been more or less lost. Why various manufacturing names of the Danish Krag were used I have not seen any explanation for. They are all produced at the same factory.

Rustmester (CEO of the Danish arms production) Rasmussen who later changed his name to Bjarnov appears also to be very conservative and against any changes of the Danish Krag rifle. As soon as he retired in 1908, the 8x58R, 236-grain round nose bullet was replaced with the 196-grain spitzer ogive bullet at a significantly higher velocity, a side tang safety was installed in 1910, completely replacing the "half-cock" safety.Then in 1912, the year Rustmester Rasmussen/Bjarnow passed on, the first carbine version of the Danish Krag was rolled out. During his time, Rustmester Rasmussen/Bjarnov progressively worked from muzzleloaders and black powder guns to small-bore high-velocity cartridges firing from guns with dense steel barrels.

The installment of the magazine cut-off was integral of the thinking of the time, and the enlisted soldiers needed the permission of a superior in order to disengage the magazine cut-off in "emergency situations". The Danish soldier was taught to use the Danish Krag as a single-shot rifle.

The Danes were well aware that the Danish Krag was not as good at the stripper clipped feed Mauser rifles and thus developed a speed loader for the Danish Krag. However, that was never distributed or used by the Danish troops. No records of what happened to that stock of speed loaders.

The Danish soldier was also indoctrinated in believing that the Danish Army "Model 1889 rifle", which was never referred to as a Norwegian designed Krag rifle in the Danish Army, as well as the Danish soldiers, were told "en bedre rifle findes ikke" (a better rifle does not exist), hence no complaints about it either.

We have not seen and read anything from the otherwise great and wonderful post written by Niels Joergen Amorsen (Amore2) for a while, and I leave it at that.
Not long ago and after he wrote to me and told me that "his illness had returned", we all also lost the friendship and support of Joergen Christensen wisdom in regard to his great website of the Schulz-Larsen rifles. May he rest in peace.

Because of its size and hard to conceal, the Danish Krag has not been recorded or pictures much as a weapon of choice by the Danish Resistance.

Best,

Jonas
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That is unfortunate about Niels and Joergen. From what I can see they heavily contributed to the community. I have gone ahead and started a serial number range listing, to collect serial numbers of Danish Krags, hopefully in order to get a clearer serial range per year of production! If you have any Danish Krags Models and would be kind enough to post their production year and serial numbers it would definitely help with the list! I plan on posting the entire list once I am done with it so others can have a reference, and am currently at 160 rifles in the list.

One quick question while it's on my mind. I've seen the later M/1928/31 model also named the M/1928/33. is this a mistake? or was there another version of the rifle introduced in 1933?

Thanks for your help!

Justin
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
To the best of my book knowledge from Danish authors on the subject, only one style of the Moel 1928 "Finskydningsgevaer" was produced.
Ah okay good. I've seen many threads talking about the Finskydningsgevaer and I've seen the single-shot 6.5x58mm version referenced as both the M/1928/31 and /33. I have found no actual sources to suggest it was called the M1928/33 so I just wanted to confirm that there wasn't some other version of it called the /33.

Thanks for your help yet again! I do have a question about your own personal experiences with the Krag. I understand from some of your last posts that you spent time in Greenland and the Krag was very sought after by Danes. Would you be able to expand on the Danish opinion of the rifle from the Civilian point of view? From what I've seen, the Danes put in a lot of work to convince troops in the military that it was the best equipment money could buy, so it'd be interesting to hear more about both your experiences with the rifles in Greenland or stories about its use by other civilians.

(Also if you wouldn't mind, I would like to quote you in my book, as having first hand accounts of using Krags in Greenland is a useful experience for those who'd like to read about it)

Thanks Jonas!
- Justin
 

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For the Greenlandic Inuit hunter, any Danish Krag was fine as long as there was ammunition available that could bring home "the beacon". Only the surplus fmj, pattern 1908 8x58R cartridge was available. When that first supply batch ran out a batch of Swedish-made Norma cases were loaded at the Otterup Ammunitionsfabrik on the request of the Royal Greenlandic Trade Department, better known under its Danish abbreviation of "KGH" (Kongelige Groenlandske Handel) a very much a horrible old school European colonial organization.

The Danish Krag served the Greenlandic Inuit hunter well until they were more or less worn out from the salty element this Danish Krag worked under as well as the ammunition supply dried up. When used from an Inuit hunter's kayak a string was also attached from the bottom swivel of the Danish Krag to the kayak in case the kayak rolled over.
The Danish Krag was largely replaced by the Danish Home Guard surplus M53, P 17 bolt action rifle in the late sixties. My first of several Danish Krag carbine I owned in Greenland had a homemade ivory front sight with a black dot. I bought all of them from the Greenlandic Inuit hunters who were due to ammunition shortages, no longer using them and most of the Greenlandic Inuit hunters had switched over to the surplus M53, P17 using the 147 fmj bullet that often failed miserably on thick-skinned and large blubbery sea mammals.
In most small Greenlandic Inuit villages, the surplus fmj bullet was the only cartridge available to them. I have watched Greenlandic Inuit hunters walked straight out of the trading post, proudly with his newly possessed Danish Krag, then just walked out to the waters edge 30 yards away, and who could no wait to test fire their newly prized possession of a Danish Krag rifle unit they came home and started to shoot small pieces of floating ice on the water in front of the trading post.

The WW2, rag-tag Northeastern Greenland Patrol put together by the Danish colonial administration of Greenland, made up by Danish and Norwegian fur hunters and trappers in Eastern Greenland, who during WW2 also hunted for German weather stations might also have been armed with both Danish and Norwegian Krag as well as US-supplied small arms. Few ensuing firefights resulted in a handful of casualties on both sides. The US used bombers and naval cannons against those German stragglers in this remoter corner of North America.

The Danish Krag factory also produced rifles for the Danish gun clubs and individuals, and these Danish Krag also have a "P" stamped on the action, indicating they were produced for the "Private" marked and many were single-shot Danish Krag, often in the 6.5x58R target caliber.

.Cheers

Jonas
 

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Page 35-36 gives you an excellent account of WW2 activities by German and Allied forces in the remotes areas of Northeastern Greenland. Evacuating Germans forgot one of their own who was lucky enough to be captured later by the Northeastern Greenlandic Patrol.

Paternalistically, the three Greenlandic Inuit dogsled drivers for the Northeastern Greenlandic Patrol were ordered by the Danish-Greenlandic Colonial administration not to get involved in any firefight and get out of harm's way when the firefight with the Germans started. No record shows if these Greenlandic Inuit obeyed that strange and bizarre order since the German MG 42 operators could not tell the difference of who was who when they started shooting.

As soon as Germany invaded Denmark on April 9, 1940, President Roosevelt and Secretary Cordel Hull activated the 1823 Monroe Doctrine and sent a US force to take over the only rare earth mineral Cryolite available in the Western Hemisphere at the Ivigtut Cryolite Mine, a rare earth mineral then crucially needed for building the 600.0000 Allied airplanes during WW2. That became the Greenlandic Inuit's contribution to the Allied Victory. The Greenlandic Cryolite was refined and processed at Pittsburg Cryolite that also was an unsuccessful target by WW2 German saboteurs.

During WW2, the United States built 37 military installations in Greenland, several of them significant in size and strategic importance for the war effort against Germany. Only the Thule Air and Space Surveillance Base remains today as the most important US military installation with a direct line to NSA, Fairfax, Virginia. If WW3 with the Soviet Union had started, the Thule Air Base was expected to be the first place to be nuked.

In 1946, President Harry Truman, on behalf of the Generals of the Pentagon, offered Denmark $ 100 million dollars for Greenland to no avail. Again in 2020, President Trump demanded to buy Greenland which left the Greenlandic Inuit, the Danes, and the World baffled and disbelieving.

The Northeastern Greenlandic Greenlandic Patrol was also armed with airdropped US small arms, but individually the Greenlandic Inuit, Danes, and Norwegians could also have been armed with Danish and Norwegian Krag rifles, and thus this small Inuit and Scandinavian force in this remote parts of North America could very well have been the only armed group fighting the Germans with both the Danish and Norwegian Krag at the same time. One German officer, Gerhard Zacker was killed with a burst from a Thomson submachinegun.

 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Thank you for supplying that link! This definitely helps flesh out the use of firearms in Greenland. I read previously on some gunboard threads that the Sirius Patrol used Greenland Krag-Jorgensens between1950-1955 before being issued the P17. In your experience, is this accurate? It is possible they were issued regular Krags before the switch to the P17 in the 50s, but I have seen some suggest they made use of the 11.4X51mm single shot ones as well, which seems somewhat unlikely to me.
 

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In regards to long-guns, the individual members of the Danish Elite and very Special Force of the Sirius Patruljen appear to have the freedom of choice of selecting their personal long-gun which often is the M53, P17. The various Danish Krag models and even the Lee-Enfield "Greenlandic Rifle" conversion in the 8x58R were completely unknown to me until the internet pictures of them showed up of these always mint condition "Greenlandic Rifle" conversions. Trust me, if you use any rifle in the harsh Arctic Ocean condition for survival, the wear and tear show up on the stock of the rifle and metal parts.

The Sirius Patrol is an offshoot of the WW2 Greenland Northeastern Patrol consisting of hardy Inuit, Danes, and Norwegian hunters and trappers drafted to hunt down German weather stations in the remotes parts of Greenland. The Greenlandic Northeast patrol did that so well that the Germans were forced to set up hidden automatic weather stations in the Arctic as well as using submarines for that important task. These well-hidden German WW2 automated weather stations in Greenland are still waiting to be found. Only one German automatic weather station codenamed "Kurt", located in Labrador, Canada has so far been found.

Few years ago, a Greenlandic archaeological team visited some of the old WW2 German weather stations in remote Northeastern Greenland that were attacked by US bombers from their Greenlandic Sondre Strom Air Base and this archaeological team investigating these sites found and discovered a bomb impact site on the cliffs and few spent 50 caliber casing that had after staffing the Germans been ejected to the ground. This archaeological team also found German weapon and ammunition stash of MG 42 machinegun and an MP 40 submachine gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
In regards to long-guns, the individual members of the Danish Elite and very Special Force of the Sirius Patruljen appear to have the freedom of choice of selecting their personal long-gun which often is the M53, P17. The various Danish Krag models and even the Lee-Enfield "Greenlandic Rifle" conversion in the 8x58R were completely unknown to me until the internet pictures of them showed up of these always mint condition "Greenlandic Rifle" conversions. Trust me, if you use any rifle in the harsh Arctic Ocean condition for survival, the wear and tear show up on the stock of the rifle and metal parts.

The Sirius Patrol is an offshoot of the WW2 Greenland Northeastern Patrol consisting of hardy Inuit, Danes, and Norwegian hunters and trappers drafted to hunt down German weather stations in the remotes parts of Greenland. The Greenlandic Northeast patrol did that so well that the Germans were forced to set up hidden automatic weather stations in the Arctic as well as using submarines for that important task. These well-hidden German WW2 automated weather stations in Greenland are still waiting to be found. Only one German automatic weather station codenamed "Kurt", located in Labrador, Canada has so far been found.

Few years ago, a Greenlandic archaeological team visited some of the old WW2 German weather stations in remote Northeastern Greenland that were attacked by US bombers from their Greenlandic Sondre Strom Air Base and this archaeological team investigating these sites found and discovered a bomb impact site on the cliffs and few spent 50 caliber casing that had after staffing the Germans been ejected to the ground. This archaeological team also found German weapon and ammunition stash of MG 42 machinegun and an MP 40 submachine gun.
Yeah, it seems like whatever Greenlandic Krag-Jorgensen models exist were either in the Arctic for an extremely short time and brought back to Denmark, or never left Denmark after being made. I mean, even if I bring any of my surplus rifles out in Ontario snow they begin to rust without immediate cleaning afterwards! From what I've seen of surplus rifles still in use by the Inuit, they are in horrifically terrible shape. You can even see the bad condition of a Mauser-type rifle in this article, that was being used as of 2015: The Seal Hunters of Greenland: A Photo Essay | Hakai Magazine

Supposedly a museum in Hammerset, Norway, has one of these Greenlandic 11.4x51mm Krags converted to a polar bear trap amongst other rifle models, but I have yet to confirm this. I do understand that the Greenlandic rifles must have been created for Greenland though, as, in my opinion, there would have been no other reason for Schultz and Larsen to create unique models of the Krag-Jorgensen chambered in an outdated, stop-gap rolling block cartridge that hadn't been common in Denmark for probably over 40-50 years by that point. From what I've read, the rifles were created to basically eat up all the surplus 11.4x51mm ammunition that had been in Greenland, and in use by the hunters there previously, as they had been using surplus rolling blocks from Denmark. And since the rolling blocks had degraded so much in the past couple years since they had been imported to Greenland, the hunters needed a new rifle that was capable of taking advantage of all the surplus ammunition. It would make sense to me that since very little of these were created, and any that were still in use became both unusable after ammunition dried up, they just were thrown away by the Inuit who didn't look at them as anything "unique". This may have been the same case as for the Whitworth conversion 8x58mmR Enfields, since I don't see any other reason why such a conversion would be made in the 1960s if not for sale to Danes in either Denmark or Greenland.

Though your story of that Dane buying your first 8x58 Krag carbine off of you is a great story. Especially interesting that it had a modified sight. Were any of the other Krags you owned or saw modified in certain ways by the Inuit? or were they generally kept in their military configuration?
 

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Most trading posts in small Greenlandic Inuit villages would stock a limited number of surplus rifles. I did see a number of the M53-P17 sporterized by the Greenlandic Inuit, notably to save some weight but for most, they were kept as issued. A sealskin scabbard was often also made for it. The Danish Krag I encountered and bought and restored were all in original condition. At the time of not having access to any information about them, I look at them as either carbine of the long versions and albeit the bores were black they were still in good shooting condition, provided ammunition was still available.

The dangers of using any rifle from small watercraft or kayak were if water spray got into the very cold bore and froze to ice, blocking the bullet. A blown barrel was a certain thing that ended up looking like some kind of a strange-looking bouquet of flowers and usually by the look of the Inuit hunters' "don't ask" expression in the face I left it at that and pretended to be busy with something else.

Surprisingly, the quickest way to clear ice from the bore was to hold the tip of the barrels with your bare hands at the same time hold the barrel downwards and the heat from your hand would quickly dissipate through the steel and melt the ice inside the bore and make the water drain out and you are ready to fire again.

The maintenance of many of these Inuit surplus guns was limited to lubricating them with seal oil or even margarine simply because they were no other alternative products available at the trading post. Both worked fine and in particular, for the seal oil, it was superior to most over-the-counter gun oil that would freeze or stiffen under extremely cold conditions. It gave these surplus Inuit hunter rifles a distinct look and smell of seal oil and saltwater that would time and again bring home the "bacon" and the same time royally tick off Brigitte Bardot and her cohorts wanting to turn the Inuit people into vegans. Did you know that the Inuit word "Vegetarian" translates into English as "poor hunter" :)

Nowadays, one of the most popular Inuit hunting rifles is the Finnish Sako in the 222 caliber. One polar bear hunter in Eastern Greenland told me that when he spotted a polar bear on the frozen ocean ice, he would cut three of his sled dogs loose, that would stop the bear from running, and by the time he arrived the bear would be standing on its hind legs fending off the dogs and he would then get as close as ten-fifteen yards and dispatch the polar bear with a single shot to the heart using the Sako in 222 caliber firing a 55-grain hunting bullet. He told me that story while we were dining on the bear.
 

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Hi guys
I love reading your posts about the Krag. I got my first Krag yesterday and I dont know what I actually have. Its a single shot. I made a post about it. I hope you guys can help with some info. You seem to know a LOT about these :)

And Skillest/Justin. Feel free to add the sn to your list.

 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Hi guys
I love reading your posts about the Krag. I got my first Krag yesterday and I dont know what I actually have. Its a single shot. I made a post about it. I hope you guys can help with some info. You seem to know a LOT about these :)

And Skillest/Justin. Feel free to add the sn to your list.

Hi!

Thanks for the info! I appreciate it.

And yeah, I love learning about these things. Also, your single shot Krag is very cool! Would you mind taking additional photos of it showing the full Left hand & Right Hand sides of it? It would be a really cool addition to my book if I had some HD photos of a "regular pattern" single shot Danish Krag.

I do not know too much about the private purchased rifles just yet, as I haven't delved deep into that avenue of Danish Krag ownership just yet. What I do know is that unlike Norwegian production, Danish Krag production didnt really have a dedicated civilian production line, and civilians just bought rifles whenever they could. I could be corrected by Snowhunter here, but I believe that civilians just bought rifles and often got gunsmiths and companies like Schultz and Larsen to "sporter" their rifles. This included new high quality barrels, sights, removal of the magazine to convert the rifle into a dedicated single shot sporting rifle, and more.

To me, it seems like your rifle started out as a 1910 production m/1889, but somehow managed to miss the safety conversion! Perhaps it's because it was a single-shot rifle, and the safety was seen as unnecessary on such a model? The wood suggests to me that the rifle was ordered that way, rather than converted. I mainly say this because the wood where the magazine should be does not look to have been spliced in afterward. It also has the 10 with a crown stamped on the stock, which indicates to me that this stock was made at the arsenal alongside the gun, so it wasn't a gunsmith Job. I'm guessing that this rifle was made by the factory specifically for sports shooters. I know many private rifles had "P" markings on them to show that they were private sale, or made for shooting organizations, but it doesn't look like yours has this. Snowhunter, is this something you're familiar with? It would help clear things up for both Mbechmann and myself!

For reference, this is what the "P" marked single shot rifles look like. It seems yours had a custom notch sight added to the original rear sight as well. Commercial "P" Action Danish Krag
 

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Hi!

Thanks for the info! I appreciate it.

And yeah, I love learning about these things. Also, your single shot Krag is very cool! Would you mind taking additional photos of it showing the full Left hand & Right Hand sides of it? It would be a really cool addition to my book if I had some HD photos of a "regular pattern" single shot Danish Krag.

I do not know too much about the private purchased rifles just yet, as I haven't delved deep into that avenue of Danish Krag ownership just yet. What I do know is that unlike Norwegian production, Danish Krag production didnt really have a dedicated civilian production line, and civilians just bought rifles whenever they could. I could be corrected by Snowhunter here, but I believe that civilians just bought rifles and often got gunsmiths and companies like Schultz and Larsen to "sporter" their rifles. This included new high quality barrels, sights, removal of the magazine to convert the rifle into a dedicated single shot sporting rifle, and more.

To me, it seems like your rifle started out as a 1910 production m/1889, but somehow managed to miss the safety conversion! Perhaps it's because it was a single-shot rifle, and the safety was seen as unnecessary on such a model? The wood suggests to me that the rifle was ordered that way, rather than converted. I mainly say this because the wood where the magazine should be does not look to have been spliced in afterward. It also has the 10 with a crown stamped on the stock, which indicates to me that this stock was made at the arsenal alongside the gun, so it wasn't a gunsmith Job. I'm guessing that this rifle was made by the factory specifically for sports shooters. I know many private rifles had "P" markings on them to show that they were private sale, or made for shooting organizations, but it doesn't look like yours has this. Snowhunter, is this something you're familiar with? It would help clear things up for both Mbechmann and myself!

For reference, this is what the "P" marked single shot rifles look like. It seems yours had a custom notch sight added to the original rear sight as well. Commercial "P" Action Danish Krag
I think you are spot on, on a lot of the things you are thinking. From what I know about the factory, it was a military rifle factory. After the name change in 1910 it also became Hærens Tøjhus - Army Clothing house.

I also do agree that this was built this way. If it didnt have that Crown 10 mark on the stock, it could have been converted. So I do agree that this one was built this way.

I also think you are spot on with the safety. I dont think it was required for competitions - or at least pro competitions like the Olympics.

Because of that, I also think you are spot on that private sales were not normal. It was custom orders only.

But then there is the front sight and barrel jacket. Why would you use that on a private sporting rifle? Especially if you were buying it custom order. Wouldnt you buy one thats lighter - without the barrel jacket - and with a much smaller and accurate sight? Thats why this rifle doesnt make sense to me, unless it was used for Military rifle competition where you had to use something like this.

One detail about this. The S-L factory wasnt formed until 1919. But Hans Schultz had his own factory prior to that. But that factory produced sights and barrels for the army. From I can tell, that means that the stock would have been made by a different factory - the factory in Copenhagen. Schultz factory was in Otterup (The Island of Fyn). The barrel would have been Schultz... So this would have been a joint venture as well. If I am right about that, that would confirm that these were custom orders only - and that they were not cheap at all.

Last but not least. Very cool link to that P rifle. That one is actually from 1906, so thats also after the first fairly big production run.

By the way, can you tell I am very happy to own this rifle? I love digging into history like this, figuring out the full story. Its so cool and so much fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I think you are spot on, on a lot of the things you are thinking. From what I know about the factory, it was a military rifle factory. After the name change in 1910 it also became Hærens Tøjhus - Army Clothing house.

I also do agree that this was built this way. If it didnt have that Crown 10 mark on the stock, it could have been converted. So I do agree that this one was built this way.

I also think you are spot on with the safety. I dont think it was required for competitions - or at least pro competitions like the Olympics.

Because of that, I also think you are spot on that private sales were not normal. It was custom orders only.

But then there is the front sight and barrel jacket. Why would you use that on a private sporting rifle? Especially if you were buying it custom order. Wouldnt you buy one thats lighter - without the barrel jacket - and with a much smaller and accurate sight? Thats why this rifle doesnt make sense to me, unless it was used for Military rifle competition where you had to use something like this.

One detail about this. The S-L factory wasnt formed until 1919. But Hans Schultz had his own factory prior to that. But that factory produced sights and barrels for the army. From I can tell, that means that the stock would have been made by a different factory - the factory in Copenhagen. Schultz factory was in Otterup (The Island of Fyn). The barrel would have been Schultz... So this would have been a joint venture as well. If I am right about that, that would confirm that these were custom orders only - and that they were not cheap at all.

Last but not least. Very cool link to that P rifle. That one is actually from 1906, so thats also after the first fairly big production run.

By the way, can you tell I am very happy to own this rifle? I love digging into history like this, figuring out the full story. Its so cool and so much fun.
The reason the barrel jacket was there on the m/1889 is because without it accuracy would have been worse. During development of the Danish Krag it was found that the early made barrels got too hot due to uneven heat dissipation on all sides of the barrel, plus the barrels contact with the stock, which caused a wandering zero. To remedy this they tried a bunch of different things, including cutting the forend of the stock down to carbine length to see if it would help. This didn't work, so they also tried to just cut barrel lengths shorter as well, thinking the length of the barrel is what could cause the issue. Obviously, the carbines had slightly better heat dissipation cuz the barrel was shorter, but since the barrel was now shorter, that made accuracy worse anyway. Nothing worked until they developed their own barrel jacket based on the 1889 Belgian Mausers jacket.

The jacket surrounding the entirety of the barrel allowed for even heat dissipation on all angles of the barrel, while also allowing the barrel to not have any contact with the stock, which helped with accuracy. Quickly after this it was found that the material they used for the barrel jackets was not strong enough to protect the barrel, however, and they ended up using the same material that was used on the 1888 commission rifle, since the metal was stronger. So, funnily enough, even though the design of the jacket is based on the 1889 jacket and not the 1888, it uses the same German materials as the 1888 jacket.

Anyway, since this was a rifle meant for civilian sports shooting, there wouldn't have been a reason to take the jacket off, as it would have just caused issues with accuracy. The reason they ended up getting rid of the barrel jacket on some earlier carbine models was for a number of reasons. One small reason was because pin point accuracy wasn't really a necessity for the specialized units. It wasnt expected of cavalry to be capable of basically shooting sub MOA from 800m off the back of a horse, and, since heat dispersal was lessened with a shorter barrel, and removing the jacket was also removing extra expense that could be saved during production, it was decided to get rid of them.

The main reason was that early jackets often had complaints about the jackets rusting, which required constant cleaning and buffing to get rid of the rust build up on both the inside and outside of the jacket. This resulted in the jackets losing most of their bluing, and became incredibly shiny. Supposedly the shininess of the jackets was so bad that getting a sight picture in the sunlight was hard, with light reflecting in the shooters eye. Also, it was reported that the shiny barrels having sunlight reflect off them could be seen from far away, thus making troops easy to spot.

Later in 1923/1924 the artillery and infantry carbines were developed that once again had barrel jackets. Thus was because the idea of them was to basically be conversion rifles made from existing m/1889s, and they figured they could save money on parts if they just literally shortened everything they already had made, and didn't need to worry about fiddling with parts that were uniquely made for the carbines. Having the barrel jackets on the carbines provided protection and even heat dissipation so there wasn't too much of a reason to remove them. Plus, they had bayonet lugs, and all the bayonets were designed for use with rifles that had jackets, so they had to design the carbines to be able to use the bayonets.
 

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The reason the barrel jacket was there on the m/1889 is because without it accuracy would have been worse. During development of the Danish Krag it was found that the early made barrels got too hot due to uneven heat dissipation on all sides of the barrel, plus the barrels contact with the stock, which caused a wandering zero. To remedy this they tried a bunch of different things, including cutting the forend of the stock down to carbine length to see if it would help. This didn't work, so they also tried to just cut barrel lengths shorter as well, thinking the length of the barrel is what could cause the issue. Obviously, the carbines had slightly better heat dissipation cuz the barrel was shorter, but since the barrel was now shorter, that made accuracy worse anyway. Nothing worked until they developed their own barrel jacket based on the 1889 Belgian Mausers jacket.

The jacket surrounding the entirety of the barrel allowed for even heat dissipation on all angles of the barrel, while also allowing the barrel to not have any contact with the stock, which helped with accuracy. Quickly after this it was found that the material they used for the barrel jackets was not strong enough to protect the barrel, however, and they ended up using the same material that was used on the 1888 commission rifle, since the metal was stronger. So, funnily enough, even though the design of the jacket is based on the 1889 jacket and not the 1888, it uses the same German materials as the 1888 jacket.

Anyway, since this was a rifle meant for civilian sports shooting, there wouldn't have been a reason to take the jacket off, as it would have just caused issues with accuracy. The reason they ended up getting rid of the barrel jacket on some earlier carbine models was for a number of reasons. One small reason was because pin point accuracy wasn't really a necessity for the specialized units. It wasnt expected of cavalry to be capable of basically shooting sub MOA from 800m off the back of a horse, and, since heat dispersal was lessened with a shorter barrel, and removing the jacket was also removing extra expense that could be saved during production, it was decided to get rid of them.

The main reason was that early jackets often had complaints about the jackets rusting, which required constant cleaning and buffing to get rid of the rust build up on both the inside and outside of the jacket. This resulted in the jackets losing most of their bluing, and became incredibly shiny. Supposedly the shininess of the jackets was so bad that getting a sight picture in the sunlight was hard, with light reflecting in the shooters eye. Also, it was reported that the shiny barrels having sunlight reflect off them could be seen from far away, thus making troops easy to spot.

Later in 1923/1924 the artillery and infantry carbines were developed that once again had barrel jackets. Thus was because the idea of them was to basically be conversion rifles made from existing m/1889s, and they figured they could save money on parts if they just literally shortened everything they already had made, and didn't need to worry about fiddling with parts that were uniquely made for the carbines. Having the barrel jackets on the carbines provided protection and even heat dissipation so there wasn't too much of a reason to remove them. Plus, they had bayonet lugs, and all the bayonets were designed for use with rifles that had jackets, so they had to design the carbines to be able to use the bayonets.
Very cool info.

I had a look at the P rifle. A couple of things came to mind when I saw it. First, no bayonet lug, and no stamp on the stock. But 1 more detail. It has a stamp saying Schultz and Larsen. That means this has to have been converted AFTER 1919. If I understand the stamps correctly, this would have been converted in 1923.

So this is a indeed a m1889 target conversion.

But thats also way different from mine. A lot of the things you mention makes sense if mine was a conversion. But it wasnt a conversion. This was built this way from the factory. If you were going to order one custom made for competitions, why would you need the jacket as well as bayonet lug? Would you reuse a normal army barrel, if you are going to change everything else on it? Or would you have ordered one of the barrels that didnt have the jacket or bayonet lugs that they were already producing at that time for the m1889 Carbine - even if it had to be longer than the Carbine? Also notice that mine doesnt have the P.

Thats why mine doesnt make sense in some ways. Its a custom made military target rifle...


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