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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The Cirkle Z is the inspection mark of Czech arms company. The others---haven't a clue! More inspection marks I assume. What else is on the reciever?, top for instance.
Various Israeli marks and British Proof marks which I have fully identified, it was just these odd ones on the sides/bottom that I havnt worked out. I wasnt sure it is was a Z as on other examples on the web the ends of the letter have a little bend down or up at the ends. Ian
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Those are called serifs (sp?) just an older style of western letter. I was looking for a dou and date. K98's were made in Czech. under German occupation.
If only they were there, the problem is the Israeli's were rather good at scrubbing off that sort of info. From all the marks and comments from others I have pieced together some of its history but as with most converted 7.62's in Israel its made of a bunch of different parts and probably had parts swapped in and out over its life until it came to the UK in the early 1980's. Thanks for identifying one of the marks though. Ian
 

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A circle Z on the side of the receiver is more likely to be Polish than Czechoslovak. We need photos of ALL receiver markings. Parts swapping by the Israelis has no effect on the identification of the receiver.

Regards,
Bill
 

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The WZ29 is the Polish standard rifle, model of 1929. With a bent bolt handle like yours it would be a cavalry rifle; infantry rifles had straight bolts. The ones with blank receiver rings and circle Z markings are normally rifles used in the Spanish Civil War - which is why it is so unusual to find one in Israel. Israel bought a lot of used Mausers after WWII and strange ones pop up now and then. Your rifle is quite unique.

See post 247 on page 6 of Mausers, Only Mausers
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers/page6

Added: After a closer look, it seems like all that remains of the original WZ29 rifle may be just the receiver. That's not unusual for Israeli rebuilt Mausers and yours is still very interesting.

I wonder if someone in Spain made a few bucks by unofficially selling some ex-Spanish Civil War rifles to Israel?

Regards,
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Many thanks for the info Bill, this has helped a lot.

I have just been checking the notes I have made in the past and other markings under the receiver consist of

g2534


3348


43 over 891

Would any of these be an original Polish or a later Spanish serial number ?

Ian
 

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Hi Ian,

Polish serial numbers were on the left side of the receiver ring in a smaller font just above the wood line, usually with an upper case letter suffix. Added Spanish serial numbers were in the same place, usually four digits in a larger font, no prefix or suffix, sometimes in a very large font, maybe a bit higher on the side of the receiver ring than the Polish number.

Added: Looking at the photos, the 23173 looks like an original Polish s/n. Polish WZ29 rifles rebuilt by Spain after the Spanish Civil War have been seen with:
* original serial numbers
* new Spanish serial numbers with the original number removed
* original serial numbers with a horizontal line through them and no new serial number added

Markings on the bottom of the receiver normally don't mean much to collectors.

The photos show other markings which I think may be British import proofs. That's a very confusing receiver. Perhaps it was imported to England after Israeli service.

Regards,
Bill
 

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H
The WZ29 is the Polish standard rifle, model of 1929. With a bent bolt handle like yours it would be a cavalry rifle; infantry rifles had straight bolts. The ones with blank receiver rings and circle Z markings are normally rifles used in the Spanish Civil War - which is why it is so unusual to find one in Israel. Israel bought a lot of used Mausers after WWII and strange ones pop up now and then. Your rifle is quite unique.

See post 247 on page 6 of Mausers, Only Mausers
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers/page6

Added: After a closer look, it seems like all that remains of the original WZ29 rifle may be just the receiver. That's not unusual for Israeli rebuilt Mausers and yours is still very interesting.

I wonder if someone in Spain made a few bucks by unofficially selling some ex-Spanish Civil War rifles to Israel?

Regards,
Bill
I was thinking a Spanish volunteer fighting with the Germans on the eastern front carried into Russia and then they sold it to Israel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi Ian,

Polish serial numbers were on the left side of the receiver ring in a smaller font just above the wood line, usually with an upper case letter suffix. Added Spanish serial numbers were in the same place, usually four digits in a larger font, no prefix or suffix, sometimes in a very large font, maybe a bit higher on the side of the receiver ring than the Polish number.

Added: Looking at the photos, the 23173 looks like an original Polish s/n. Polish WZ29 rifles rebuilt by Spain after the Spanish Civil War have been seen with:
* original serial numbers
* new Spanish serial numbers with the original number removed
* original serial numbers with a horizontal line through them and no new serial number added

Markings on the bottom of the receiver normally don't mean much to collectors.

The photos show other markings which I think may be British import proofs. That's a very confusing receiver. Perhaps it was imported to England after Israeli service.

Regards,
Bill
This gets more and more interesting, the bolt also has the same serial number on it, and based on other research, as it has oval gas holes is I am told it is a pre 1944 bolt.

I understand that the underside of the bolt knob should be checkered if Polish cavalry is that correct ? As can be seen below its a smooth round ball.

 

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That is an Israeli applied serial number on your bolt. Some Polish bent bolts were flat bottomed, I'm not sure about the WZ29. Probably it was.

Regards,
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks for confirming my suspicions, and many thanks for all the info you have given me, its really interesting and make me want to dig further.

This gun is a total mismash of bits but what a history and it must have seen some interesting conflicts in its life time.

Ian
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
did some further digging on google and found the following, it might explain how a scrubbed polish mauser got to Israel - without going via spain !!!

http://www.sidsjournal.com/J48-Haganah.htm

In the late thirties, home production of weapons expanded – into grenades and mortars, and purchases from abroad were stepped up. The Polish Government was not only sympathetic, but helpful in the most practical ways. It provided large quantities of arms for the Haganah (8mm Mauser bolt-action rifles, machine guns and pistols) as well as military training on its soil for a number of those immigrating to Palestine. The operation was enshrouded by the heaviest cloak of secrecy, not only because the Haganah depended on silence, but the Polish Government was an ally of Britain and looked to her for support against a German invasion. Britain, had she known, would have applied the strongest possible pressure on Poland to withhold arms and to immediately terminate the military training.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Also from http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac16.htm I have found the following which would seem to imply a special dump of arms which could have been scrubbed mausers similar to ones shipped to Spain !!.

In 1936, Jabotinsky met with the Foreign Minister, Josef Beck, and created the infrastructure for collaboration. The Polish government hoped that the establishment of a Jewish state would lead to mass emigration of Jews, thus solving the Jewish problem in Poland. In November 1937, Avraham Stern (Yair), then secretary of the Irgun General Headquarters, arrived in the Polish capital armed with a letter of recommendation from Jabotinsky. He met with senior government officials and laid the practical foundations for cooperation between the Polish army and the Irgun Zvai Le'umi. Within the framework of this cooperation, Polish army representatives handed over to Irgun representatives weapons and ammunition which had been kept in special ammunition depots. The weapons remained under Polish army supervision until they were despatched to Eretz Israel. Some of the weapons were concealed in the false bottoms of crates in which the furniture of prospective immigrants was transported, or in the drums of electrical machines. When the consignments reached Eretz Israel, they were taken to a safe place, and the weapons were removed from their hiding place.
 
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