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Ummm - and just what would you have had George Catlett Marshall, or anyone else, do at Yalta other than what was done? Or for that matter in China? As far as Marshall having played a role in Truman's relief of MacArthur - I'd certainly hope he had. I think he probably deserves (as does Omar Nelson Bradley) to be castigated for waiting so long to really start working on Truman to do just that.

Sorry - McCarthy was a worthless POS who actually did more to AID the Communists he claimed to hate and fear than he harmed them. I have wondered if he was just a demagogic drunk or a conscious fellow-traveller on occasion, but malice isn't the high-probability choice in this case, i think (though McCarthy was certainly malicious enough). Mean drunk - like a lot of others I've met over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
"...It was the Republicans in the Senate who got fed up with this slimeball and voted 67 to 22 to condemn him on 12-2-54. A Republican, Senator Flanders, of Vermont, brought the charges."

Now this is truly laughable. The grounds for censure of Senator McCarthy were his remarks about Flanders. Flanders had called McCarthy a homosexual and compared him to Hitler. McCarthy's response was "I think they should get a man with a net and take him ( Flanders ) to a good quiet place." That censure count was rejected.

Imagine that dear old Dave, senators were free to defame and verbally abuse McCarthy but it was considered a grave violation of the Senate's dignity if he criticized them back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
"Perhaps you are unaware of Francisco Franco?"

Yeah, i remember him. It was Franco who singlehandedly saved Spain from being taken over by the Stalinists.

Dang Dave, everytime you get up on your highhorse it's to defame another champion of the anti-communist struggle. You wouldn't happen to be a secret Marxist-Leninist yourself, now would you Dave?
 

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I'd say El Caudillo had a LOT of help, not only from patriotic Spaniards, but Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. I can't say I ever met a Communist I liked or trusted, and I did meet some folks I have reason to believe had been members of the NSDAP that I were both likable and trustworthy - but being anti-Communist doesn't automatically make you a good guy. Joe McCarthy wasn't (a good guy). And whatever the FORMAL: basis for his censure, it happened because of a LOT of other things he'd said and done that made his fellow Senators TIRED of him.
 

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...Marshall was a patriot and so was Eisenhower. They were not traitors. They played the world hand they were delt as best it could be played. Russia occupied Poland and had 10 divisions to our one in Europe. We could not beat them. If you are not smart or knowledgeable enough to see that, so be it. You keep making bold statements, but when called, change the subject. Go ahead and defend Franco, lots of Faschists do. But he was a totalitarian of the right and you say those don't happen. Of course they do, you are a worm for trying to change the subject when you can't defend your posit. If you can't back up what you claim with FACTS, you ought to post on the doll forum. You weasel, you squirm and you prevaricate. McCarthy was, at BEST, a liar. He never did what he claimed he did. If you want to claim him as your hero, go ahead. But those who have examined what he SAID and what he DID know the truth. He was a weasel and a charlatan. Are you ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Dave, like i said earlier, you really need to unwind. Yer gonna pop a cork.
 

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Dave, you are wound way too tight. You need to loosen up a little.

As to poor ol' George Marshall; he supported enormous consessions to Stalin at Yalta, including turning over Poland to the USSR. He helped consign a billion people to a totalitarian dungeon in China and he played a central role in Truman's firing of General MacArthur.
Poland? Look at a map. The US and Britain supported the legal Polish government in exile, but from 900 miles away, with German territory between Britain and Poland. Stalin set up his own Polish Communist government and used it to rule Poland when he pushed the Germans out.

All the yalta agreements were strictly on the basis of the military situation.

China - The Nationalists were doomed by gross incompetence and corruption. Most US aid might as well have bbeen dumped directly into the black market or just given directly to the Reds. The only competent part of the nationalist government was its propaganda campaign in the USA.

Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? The Greek Civil War? All of our operations against communist infiltration in the governments of western Europe post war? NATO?

MacArthur's military record was pretty bad, long before Korea. Remember "Dougout Doug"? His PR campaigns against the USMC and Navy? His failure to bomb japanese bases when the war started and the incompetent defence of the Phillippines? The horrible New Guinea campaign?
 

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...Silly me. I thought you posted your " McCarthy was a Hero " thread in order to discuss McCarthy, but instead you only came here to shill for Ms. Coulter's book. I countered with quotes and facts, you had a Rodney King moment and asked why we can't all just get along.
....Good luck peddling the books. I'd suggest door to door, a lot of Britania Encyclopeadias got sold that way. Buy a good dog spray. And concentrate on the migrant neighborhoods where they don't speak much english. Whatever you do, avoid old , establish communities and senior parks, where the residents might have actually seen McCarthy speak on newsreels or on T.V. You won't sell many books there, even discounted. And those old duffers are going to want to talk about your Hero. And , trust me, you are NOT prepared to do that.


...Light enough for you ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Hey Dave, read this again and maybe let it sink into your damn the facts, let me live with my illusions and propagandized thick skull;

"The true story of Joe McCarthy, told in meticulous, irrefutable detail in Blacklisted by History, is that from 1938 to 1946, the Democratic Party acquiesced in a monstrous conspiracy being run through the State Department, the military establishment, and even the White House to advance the Soviet cause within the U.S. government."

"In the face of the Democrats' absolute refusal to admit to their fecklessness, fatuity and recklessness in allowing known Soviet spies to penetrate the deepest levels of government, McCarthy demanded an accounting."

Now, after you've cooled down a bit, go and read Evans new book and admit to me that you were wrong in your assessment of Senator McCarthy.
 

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....OK, I've cooled down. I think you are very wise to expand your wares and peddle Mr. Evans book too. Since your going door to door, why not sell 'em both ! Brilliant marketing device. I'll be listening for the doorbell to ring.
 

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Hey Dave, read this again and maybe let it sink into your damn the facts, let me live with my illusions and propagandized thick skull;

"The true story of Joe McCarthy, told in meticulous, irrefutable detail in Blacklisted by History, is that from 1938 to 1946, the Democratic Party acquiesced in a monstrous conspiracy being run through the State Department, the military establishment, and even the White House to advance the Soviet cause within the U.S. government."

"In the face of the Democrats' absolute refusal to admit to their fecklessness, fatuity and recklessness in allowing known Soviet spies to penetrate the deepest levels of government, McCarthy demanded an accounting."

Now, after you've cooled down a bit, go and read Evans new book and admit to me that you were wrong in your assessment of Senator McCarthy.
"Irrefutable" is a word used by many revisionists to justify their defence of some really surly characters. I look at this tome about McCarthy in the same light I read a new book that denies the Nazi death camps. Considering that Clyde and Dave have displayed some very relevent quotes and facts that buttress the sad fact that Joe was less than heroic. I find calling Joe heroic is vaguely insulting to the real heroes that found real spies and real infilitrators. Chacing people who had communist sympathies was not only wasteful and cowardly, it was distinctly un-American.

My mother, who grew up during the Depression had told me that anyone with a conscience looked to communism. This was before the Soviets started to be seen as the brutes they were. What still captures the thoughts and hearts of many, though, was the idea. Joe was aganst differeing ideas. If he had stayed at war with the soviets, fine. But to go after writers, like Dalton Trumbo, was a serious lack of real patriotism. To ignore the convuluted, complicated, Byzantine web of history and attack Eisenhower and Marshall shows Joe to be blindingly stupid in his on right. Maybe it is no coincidence that Stalin and McCarthy were both 'Joes'. Ya know?

Still, this irrefutable tome should make some interesting reading, if nothing else, for what it leaves out about this man's calumny. I will read it.
 

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....Well, there ya go, Irgun. Sold another book ! Since you came here to sell and not to dispute, shouldn't you have posted on the Trader Forum ? With a few keystrokes your fortune awaits you. And it's one hell of a lot easier than shoeleather and gumption, by gum.

.....I think Amazon should be afraid of you....very afraid.







....Aren't we all getting along now ? I think we are !
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Coulter and Evans have done the foot work and the heavy lifting to write two good and accurate books resurrecting the reputation of an American hero's fight against homegrown communist enemies.

I refuse to accept that the histories of that period, written by liberal/leftist McCarthy haters are gospel and unassailable.

Thanks for all your input,
Irgun.
 

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I refuse to accept that the histories of that period, written by liberal/leftist McCarthy haters are gospel and unassailable.

Irgun.


.....Well, there is no accounting for taste. If you want to make a smear artist, lying son-of-a-bitch your Hero, who am I to disagree? But you are what you believe in, and of all the folks who REALLY fought the Commies, McCarthy was the low life bedwetter of them all. Admire him at your souls' peril, the tactics he used were those of a manipulating jerk. You can't lay down with dogs without waking up with some of his fleas. Scratch away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Dave, we really need to talk about your toilet-training someday. You are wound way too tight.

You were not there and neither was anyone who've added to this discussion regarding McCarthy. We choose, based on our predjudices, which historical account we believe is closest to accuracy. You have chosen accounts written by those who refused to recognize the very real threat of Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Accounts probably written by unwitting and witting participants in the machinations of Soviet intelligence. Accounts written by McCarthy haters. Actually, haters of any and all who would attempt to rouse a sleepy nation to the threat of Stalinism. It is you, my erstwhile friend, that have chosen to lie down with the enemies of your country.
 

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Dave, we really need to talk about your toilet-training someday. You are wound way too tight.

You were not there and neither was anyone who've added to this discussion regarding McCarthy. We choose, based on our predjudices, which historical account we believe is closest to accuracy. You have chosen accounts written by those who refused to recognize the very real threat of Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Accounts probably written by unwitting and witting participants in the machinations of Soviet intelligence. Accounts written by McCarthy haters. Actually, haters of any and all who would attempt to rouse a sleepy nation to the threat of Stalinism. It is you, my erstwhile friend, that have chosen to lie down with the enemies of your country.
You did not listen to Clyde. He saw the telecasts. He posted his findings. Which is the truth? I find it wasn't leftists that smeared the faux-hero Joe, I find it was Joe himself.

And don't worry Dave, I am not buying the book. That is what libraries are for. I don't think I will sully my personal library unless the book is actually compelling and honest.
 

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....Point of order ! Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Actually I did see the Army McCarthy hearings. In 1954 we lived in Visalia , California and it was on ABC, one of the 3 channels our TV got. I was 6 years old and could have cared less, but my folks were avid watchers. What little I remember of the hearings were that they preemted the regular shows that I rushed home from school to see. I was not a happy camper.


Dave, we really need to talk about your toilet-training someday.
QUOTE]


.......Until this moment, Irgun, I never gauged your cruelty or recklessness. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last ? Have you left no sense of decency ?
 

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I am not buying the book. That is what libraries are for. I don't think I will sully my personal library unless the book is actually compelling and honest.
This thread has degenerated to a war of "book vs book vs book vs book vs book....." Hairball is right. All too many books written today are so one-sided its ridiculous. Even if an academic historian writes it the purpose is all too often not to determine the truth but to promote his career and tenure prospects by revealing/inventing something controversial. One sided politics, political correctness, fads, and a pick and choose system of ideological construction are rampant in what should be a straight forward examination of the available facts.

In reading or writing history you must remember the following:

1. Newspapers and other remote observers of then current events are often grossly innacurate. Don't forget the account of the newspaper reporter in the Civil War being led out of camp tied to his horse with the plackard "Perjuror of the Press". I NEVER, in my 26 years at NAVAIR HQ, read a Washington Post story on Naval Aviation that didn't contain some glaring and important mistake.
2. The participants, especially writing after the fact, are often self-justifying or partisan.
3. Historians have become one of the most highly politicized, mostly leftist, branches of academia. The attempt 20 years ago to write history teaching standards for American primary and secondary education failed because of this. So any book academic historians write is highly suspect, often no more authoritative than those written by outright ideologists like Ann Coulter.
4. The published results of a right wing reaction to the above may be no less false than the lies of the leftists.

So doing any of your own work on historical episodes, especially political ones like McCarthy's hearings and his anti-communist campaign, require that you do a lot of detective work, maintain an attitude that's unbiased as possible, and use a preponderance of evidentiary facts, not the opinions or blunders of other writers, to determine the truth.

My opinions on McCarthy were developed by considering the contents of the Venona intercepts, the FBI investigations and arrests, the HUAC committee work, and the timeline of all of the preceeding, most of which came before McCarthy got started. Add to this McCarthy's negligible successes in revealing Soviet agents or active communists, and I decided that Senator Mccarthy was merely a political opportunist who did no more than provide a convenient target for the apologists and defenders of Communism.
 

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Actually, I think he did more - he provided a lot of cover for Commie agents by his failures to actually do anything beyond make hysterical claims about how many (how many was it, Joe? yo gave several different suggestions, but which one was it?) without naming anyone except folks who clearly were NOT Communist agents or sympathizers. "Boy who cried wolf" effect, eh?
 
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