[BradB]

Does anyone have a Jinsen SLD for some reference photos. Looking at one and I am interested in the following things:

Is the stock inspection proofed?
What does the stock lug look like on the bolt side?
Is the wrist uniformly chattered like a 25th series?

Thanks in advance. I have only seen one previously and have no basis to compare.

 

[Edokko]

Brad, will look at mine tonight. What do you mean by "stock lug" ?

 

[BradB]

SLD assistance

The stock crossbolt... sorry.

In the first photo, the rifles are Kokura 25th, Jinsen SLD and my other substitute standard Jinsens. Notice the crossbolt configuration is slotted washer with peened crosspiece on both Jinsens (matches reverse side) while the Kokura and this SLD have an unslotted washer and domed head crosspieces (other side on both is slotted washer and peened tip).

Second photo is the flat behind the bottom wrist tang... Kokura 25th and this Jinsen SLD. (The last photo is another angle; I have traced the outside of the flat area on both guns). Notice the nearly identical triangular milled flat? Not present on the other Jinsens which are just roughly sanded and uneven.

The third photo is the comparison of wrist chatter.... Kokura and this SLD. There are some differences here.

The fourth photo is wrist chatter comparision between SLD and an earlier Jinsen. Most Jinsens I have seen are fairly well sanded on the sides of the pistol grip and chatter only shows along the top and bottom.

Both of the other Jinsen substitute standards have 3 proof stamps along the belly of the buttstock. Both the 25th and this SLD have none.

The main tell for me will be the crossbolt; neither I or the seller know from experience if this is correct. I have only handled one other SLD ( Shannon Zeigler's) and I just don't know enough to make the call. It is close enough to the 25th and different enough from the Jinsens I have handled that I am suspicious. Did Jinsen used this variation of crossbolt or just Kokura? The seller is also eager to find out; he has had it for years and bought from an old collection where the collector bought, ogled a while and then stored (before there was any sense to "doctor" something).

 

[fingolfen]

I'll dig out mine and have a look...

Mine, unfortunately, has the "cottage industry" oversanded fininsh - so I'm not going to be able to get a lot of info on the stock chatter.

 

[Edokko]

Brad, 10-4 on the pointers. I will take a look at my SLD tonight and try to post some photos too. Jinsen had a very strong connection with the Kokura arsenal, so there may have been some components delivery, but just a guess.

 

[Ronin48]

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Sorry fellows the ole debel made me keyboard that. I know I was just as interested in these things as you "younguns" are, my interest now is has my heart beat at least once in the last five minutes.

 

[BradB]

Thats another aspect... this stock wasn't sanded at all. I know, late war variation yada yada. I just need to hear it from someone who knows what they are looking at. I am thrilled to finally get one (SLD); just don't want the stock to eat at me when I pull it out to the obvious delight of everyone in my Japanese collector local circle (smile).

 

[nak]

Brad, I got this Jinsen SLD from Doss a couple years ago. The crossbolt on mine is slotted on both sides. The wood chatter is mostly smooth along the sides, but more pronounced along the top and bottom of the wrist area. I have no inspection marks on the buttstock. I'll try and post a picture of the wrist area. nak.

 

[Richard A. Russell]

Jinsen #76790

Here are some photos of one I sold. I remember the finish was the roughest and crudest out of any finish on any Japanese rifle I ever had. You could barely make out the numbers, but I'm pretty sure it was all matching. Looks like this one is slotted on both sides also. Too bad I didn't take more close-ups, don't think there was any stock inspection marks.

I have since painted that deck, and it looks much better!

 

[Edokko]

Brad, I checked mine also tonight and it has the slotted crossbolt. there is some very light chatter marks on the grip area but not that pronounced. Also, I see the Jinsen フ (fu) inspection on the bottom of the grip area.

 

[BradB]

Doss; I need to learn to be more direct. I suspect my (not inexpensive) new rifle is in a replaced stock from another arsenal. I am pretty sure this would interest most collectors if it happened to them.

I am leaning strongly towards my initial assumption... a previous owner (and NOT the person I bought it from) has mounted a Kokura stock on a Jinsen SLD. I noticed it because I have owned about five 25th series and have always liked them for their crudeness. I doubt there was much parts swapping between Japan and Korea at this point in the war?

 

[Richard A. Russell]

Not sure if most collectors would have noticed the similarities, not sure if you are right. Edokko's later made stock than mine is much smoother looking. Wish you guys would have showed photos of your front and lower band's. I think the stock's on these were all over the place in respect to simularities. Just how much do these go for these days. At the time I sold mine, I was just happy to get double what I paid.

 

[BradB]

I was relying mostly on the crossbolt type and not on the chatter. However, the mill marks between the Kokura and the SLD are nearly identical in several places... if I could show them side by side in person (can't really capture the dimension/depth with my camera), you would see what I meant.

The seller has been following the thread and offered a full refund after seeing the other examples here; I wasn't really worried about that as he is unequivocally a stand-up guy and didn't do anything to this rifle after buying it years ago. It looks on initial examination to be consistent with Jinsen stocks so he didn't "dig". It was among the best cared for (oiled and preserved) and packed rifles I have ever purchased.

What threw me immediately was the crossbolt style. Every late Jinsen I have ever seen or owned had slotted washers on both sides with a peened crosspiece. Since there is a comment that I might not be right (I would love to have folks tell me "mine is just like that with great Jinsen inspection proofs, stop worrying doofus") I took the rifle the rest of the way down this AM looking anywhere on the stock or fittings for Jinsen-related proofs. (the bands and all metal parts that should be SLD characteristic are). I wanted to see a Jinsen proof that would make this correct; these things are hard to find for sale and it is on my short list!!!

The rear sling swivel (underneath) and the inside of the handguard channel ARE proofed... flattened "M" and "ij" (Torimatsu). Interesting because there is no way this is a Nagoya stock? No inner proofs or markings anywhere on the stock itself (the Nagoyas I have seen are normally proofed).

For final consideration, there is a small "blip" in rifles near this SN range in the Type 99 book showing this type of stock (Type "C" no fullers, separate forestock) in the 84-87k range in the midst of Type Bs (fullers, solid) and a couple of F's (fullers, trapped forestock). A small shipment of Kokura stocks? Would Kokura also have shipped some Nagoya proofed small parts?

I am working with the seller on what I decide to do. I am not likely to find one with the metal like this again, but the mix of stock parts seems to indicate that it has been re-stocked at some point a LONG time ago with parts from other guns.

What do you guys think? Should I hang on to it and just look for a mismatched, ground late Jinsen to provide a donor stock down the road??

Again, the seller is a stand-up guy and I am not worried about that aspect. This is a hard call. I appreciate everyone's patience with my rambling and your expertise / examples / observations.

 

[Jareth]

Brad, if you did restock your rifle you can expect some hand fitting, carving & screw alignment problems.

 

[Edokko]

I agree with Jareth. For these very late war examples, the fit standards becomes shaky even for the 99s, and I would doubt the Jinsen metal would be a "drop-in" onto a Kokura stock if it came off of another rifle. How does the wood finish look like on the wood-to-metal, edge and corner areas ?

 

[BradB]

Good point. It is a really good fit. It is hand fitted under the middle band; very tight. There is one area of inletting inside the stock that was hand worked, but old. I will post some more photos tonight of fit and markings for key pieces.

 

[Edokko]

The Toriimatsu リ (ri)mark on the handguard is sort of a throw-off, but does the wood finish on the handguard and main stock match ?
Jinsen had some very strange parts "program". I have an almost out-of-arsenal mint Jinsen T-38 with all correct inspection marks on the main-stock, but the finish matching handguard has only the Kokura セ (se) mark and that's it, no match numbers either.

 

[BradB]

Fit and Finish

Some excellent points on uniformity of stock fit. Other than the bolt release not riding flush down against the stock, this rifle fits the stock with little play and no overt sign of working (except where screw passes through middle band). More photos including proofs. Some excellent points I did not think of. However, most Jinsens in the mid 60k range up thourgh 89k range have multiple second class circles stamped on the stock in various locations. Again, this one is pretty much blank. Continued discussion requested and appreciated. Interesting thought on the rear swivel torimatsu proofs... by this point in the war, Nagoya was several hundred thousand rifles into single screw swivels and rope holes. Left over parts shipped overseas to Jinsen in 43?

 

[dave nh]

SLD

Ive been collecting for awhile but what is SLD?
David

 

[03man]

Hi Brad,
I have attached pictures of my SLD below. The stock on my rifle is original, but not original finish; and it has been sanded. It is a one piece lower with grasping grooves.

As I wrote you, I believe the key to your rifle is the lower band area; as you state above that the lower band screw hole is modified or something, that is a clue. Also the width of the band and the distance the hand guard extends (or does not) beyond the band is an indicator.

I don't think your stock is Jinsen, it surely could be a Kokura. Another key area is the extreme right rear of the receiver, it is exposed on my rifle and your other Jinsen in the pictures.

I would keep your rifle at the right price; but you will always be bugged by the stock and I suspect want to 'up-grade' it.