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Jinsen Pole
Topic:
Topic author: Ojiichan
Subject: Jinsen Pole
Posted on: 05/15/2005 5:30:11 PM
Message:
Had this question in Banzai a while back, no information received, so I will try here. Really at this point would appreciate any thoughts anyone might have as to the Arsenal Marking on reverse ricasso.

Obviously it is a high serial Jinsen Pole "bayonet" with standard arsenal mark, but the opposite side has the additional stamp of a cherry blossom with a five pointed star inside. The blade characteristics and manufacturing techniques resemble a Hoten Pole more than a standard Jinsen. Grips and crossguard are standard Jinsen though.

I have found that the split petal cherry blossom was used by the Chinese (North China 19) and the IJN, the five pointed star was used by the Chinese Nanking and Manchukuo puppet governments under Japanese control as well as the IJA.

Thoughts, conjecture appreciated (wags get extra points) and no it does not mean "fake, send it to me"

Thanks
Will

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Replies:

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 05/15/2005 10:14:56 PM
Message:
I have one marked identical & know of a few others. My uneducated guess is the additional mark represents a gift(financial contribution) from a particular group towards production & the war effort.

Reply author: Ojiichan
Replied on: 05/16/2005 11:46:20 AM
Message:
Ah, it is very nice to know there are others, my thanks to you Jareth. I also believe your guess is something more than "uneducated" and would like to hear more. My uneducated guess would be the financial contribution aspect a little odd, being a Korean manufactured blade, but your "war effort", perhaps an nationalistic or ultra patriotic symbol stamped for the last defense of Japan (would fit the time frame well).

Is it possible for you to post the serial number of yours, and maybe the "other" known examples, this might produce a grouping that would support a special "run". Also does the blade on yours resemble a Hoten rather than a Jinsen (this could also be easily explained by a different batch of bar stock and may not have any bearing)

My original "guess" was a Chinese produced blade blank, with an unknown arsenal stamp (the Chinese seem to have had a particular habit of stamping the opposite ricasso on many blades) either under Jinsen supervision or sent to Jinsen for assembly. (this would also fit the time frame well)

Any way, a couple of guesses now, this is what I hoped for.
Please post more, as this "bayonet" has been bothering me for a while.


Thank you

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 05/16/2005 12:50:58 PM
Message:
I've always thought it interesting that the pole bayonets were made in occupied territories as it would provide for difficult transport to get these back to Japan for homeland defense. By this time the factories in Japan were at a limited out put. I'll check my serial number & get back to you. I never compared blade to my other normal Jinsen pole & will do that as well. As for the other examples out there I can't promise any data unless their owners read this post. My theory is based on a recollection or a photo showing the cherry blossom used as a symbol (on a plane or tank?) meaning civilian contribution to the war effort. Hopefully another reader will chime in.

Reply author: Ojiichan
Replied on: 06/03/2005 10:29:13 PM
Message:
Well, while I am logged on, Jareth did you by chance check your Jinsen pole for the serial number?

Also some more information that may make this "bayonet" of more interest. Jareth, your observation on "occupied territories" producing the pole "bayonets" and difficult transport back to Japan is correct, but in my opinion for a different reasons. I do not believe the Jinsen or Hoten poles were produced with Japan as the primary destination or point of use. Of course numbers would have made it to Japan but a much more likely distribution for the majority of these poles, was in China.


That is also why I have leaned so much towards the second arsenal mark as being of Chinese origin. The Japanese in occupied territories would only lightly arm the "puppet" forces to prevent weapons and ammunition falling into their enemies hands, as the puppet forces changed sides with regularity. There are reports of entire "puppet" divisions being armed with nothing but "spears" and swords. As the war turned, Japan placed more emphasis on arming the "puppet" troops with what ever they had, anything to prevent the Communists (Russian and Chinese) from taking Manchukuo and moving on to Japan.

Just a thought, appreciate all comments

Will


Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 06/04/2005 5:22:41 PM
Message:
Will, here are two serial numbers from double marked Jinsen pole bayonets...# 74521 & 77741. This mystery is one of many that probally will never be known. I'm still fairly certain I saw a tank with a cherry blossom painted on it's side as well as the symbol being used on other military equipment. Was told this signified some civic financial contribution to the war effort. We both know that the North China type 19 carbines also have the blossom instead of a mum on their reciever!

Reply author: Ojiichan
Replied on: 06/06/2005 9:51:23 PM
Message:
Jareth,

Thank you for the information, from the serial numbers it looks like it may be at least a 12,000 block and if started at 70k and continued through a full series, perhaps 29,999. Supports a "dedicated" run.


As far as never knowing, that is a sad fact of so many "unknowns", but I will still keeping looking at period photos of puppet troops and perhaps one will be of troops armed with pole "bayonets"?

One other note is that pole bayonets are missing from reported accounts of Japanese "last ditch weapons". National rifles and pistols, bamboo spears/arrows, and bamboo grenade dischargers are shown but not pole bayonets ? Jerry Price has a photo of a true pole bayonet but it is a standard variaiton "A", not a pole specific.

Interesting, Thanks again
Will




 
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