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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Jinsen "For Education" T-38 - now with PIX!!!
Topic:




Topic author: fingolfen
Subject: Jinsen "For Education" T-38 - now with PIX!!!
Posted on: 12/03/2005 5:41:13 PM
Message:

So the Jinsen "For Education" no series arrived last night. Right now I'm in the process of cleaning it up, it was very dusty. I'm going to disassemble, clean, and get all of the numbers off of it for the data sheet and will be posting photos tonight once I get it cleaned up.

I can answer one question now - the barrel is RIFLED...



Replies:

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/03/2005 6:53:06 PM
Message:
Pleas keep us advised. The current known serail number range is 3 to 362. Please be sure to note ALL inspection marks.

I am looking forward to you data.

Frank

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 12/04/2005 12:40:30 AM
Message:












quote: Originally posted by Francis C. Allan
Pleas keep us advised. The current known serail number range is 3 to 362. Please be sure to note ALL inspection marks.
Okay - File this under "be careful what you ask for". I think I got pretty much all of the inspection marks and everything, but if you think I'm missing something, let me know...

I have larger copies of all of the raw photos that I'm going to send along with the data sheet...

Start with a couple of overall pictures:

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So starting with the data sheet from the top:

1. Arsenal - Jinsen:

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2. Small Stamp - none that I can find (see above and below)

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3. Breech Top - "for Education" also see Kanji on dust cover:

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4. Barrel Step - no markings

5. Bridge top - none

6. Bottom of receiver assembly number - doesn't appear to be an assembly number where I would expect it, but there does appear to be a number on the bottom of the barrel:

Here's a close up:


... and a broader view - no number where you'd expect an assembly number...
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7. Bolt Assembly number - sort of hard to read, and the only number appears to be on the extractor, and looks like there's an overstamp - may be 839:
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There's a stamp on the bolt knob as well - this stamp appears in several places on the rifle including the dust cover... initially I thought it was a partially formed "7" - may still be...

8. Latch assembly number - not sure what this was - only other number I could find was on the trigger - this one appears to be 827:
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9. Bolt release Latch - not sure which one this is - think it's either an "A" or an "E" - you can see it in the picture above.

10: Latch spring strawed

11: Trigger strawed

12: Front sight I believe is a "C" - I didn't do the metric conversion, but they look like "C" with 0.138" thickness according to my callipers.

13: FS Guard - A

14: FS fasteners - two pins

15: Protruding

16: Rear Sight: A

17: Safety Knob - C - notched

18: Sight ladder: A

19: Buttplate - not sure, either cupped or semi-cupped

20: Rear sling swivel: B

21: Stock - two piece - see number inside stock below:
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22: No chrome bolt face.

23: No chrome bore - although it's bright.

24: Bolt metal finish - white apart from the knob - firing pin is also white

25: Safety knob metal finish - external blue - interal white.

26: Rifling - what's the easiest way to tell??? I know I should know this, but I've never tried to count grooves before.

27: Caliber - I assume 6.5 but I haven't headspaced it - barrel is clearly a 6.5...

28: No import mark...

Here's a closeup of the Kanji on the DC

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... anyway - that's where we stand. I can take more pictures, and probably will - light was really BAD today, and I'd like to take more high-res photos when the light is better.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/04/2005 3:11:11 PM
Message:
Dear fingolfen;

First, many thanks for a most thorough posting. Just wonderful details on a previously unreported serial number.

The lack of a final inspection mark is common factor on these training rifles and makes perfect sense given how they were intended to be used.

One item when you send in the data sheet: Can you try to draw the Japanese character to the left of the assembly number? I can not quite make that out and I do try to report that detail when I am able to do so.

The bolt stop latch release is Varition E. The key there is to note that the top is flat as is the left side face. These are often very hard to distinguish.

The 7-like character on the bolt handle is the Japanese character fu, which is the No. 1 Plant inspector's stamp of the Jinsen Army Arsenal. This should appear in various locations.

The rifling is undoubtedly Variation A with 4 lands and grooves. The best way to confirm this is to just look down a lighted barrel. If the condition were poor it is possible to stick a sharpened No.2 pencil's tip into the muzzle end. Then look a the wood and you can usually see the number of impressions.

I wonder if Edokko can see enough of the character under the barrel chamber with the nmumber 2 to determine what is might be???????

Buttplate is probably cupped. Semi-cuppped are very unusual and have not been reported on Jinsen Type 38s. They have a slight contour on the buttplate rather than being flat.

Many thanks for sharing this. It sure looks like a wonderful example!!!!

Frank



Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 12/04/2005 4:45:44 PM
Message:
Frank,

I think the character underneath the number "2" is a poorly-stamped version of the kanji character "hatsu" which translates "to shoot" or "discharge." I'm sure Takehito can confirm.

C/

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2005 5:01:05 PM
Message:
Frank, I may be wrong but the Kanji under the receiver looks like "hai" meaning discard. Same Kanji is used on other cases such as on the receiver top of Murata rifles denoting out-of-commission.
Perhaps these Jinsen initial run rifles were a test batch with no intentions of official incorporation and marked with the "hai", mum not marked and sent out for training use after the test purposes were done.

Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 12/04/2005 5:18:28 PM
Message:

Takehito,

It sure is possible that the kanji is "hai" instead of "hatsu." I'd considered both, but it was a tossup as to which of the two was correct. I just couldn't see the left-hand side of the character very well.

C/

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2005 6:23:47 PM
Message:
Chip,

Yes, the hatsu is very evident but I can see the straight line above the hatsu and figured it was a poorly stamped hai with the side stroke on the left missing to complete the Kanji.

As a comparison, I will attache a photo of the Kanji mark on a T-22 receiver. The two Kanji are "hai" and "ju" sandwitching the mum. See the top Kanji "hai" for comparison with the closeup on the Jinsen under receiver.
View attachment 12380
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Reply author: seinen
Replied on: 12/04/2005 7:14:54 PM
Message:
Takehito,

Yep, I'll bet you're right. I stand corrected.

Is the "hai" kanji on a T-22 rifle or carbine? I have a rifle marked exactly as yours.

C/

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/04/2005 7:21:57 PM
Message:
Dear Chip and Takehito;

My notes on Jinsen inspection marks indicate the use of the character HAI, as in HAI-KI, meaning discard or scrap and I was even comparing this character to what I see pictured above. However I enlarged the photo to full page length size, converted it to black and white and then adjusted the lighting. It does not appear to be the HAI character that I am familiar with. ?????????

It DOES look like the character on the Murata. Now I am really confused! I do not see this character in either MSMincho or Cyberbit Bitstream nor in my Japanese-Englsih disctionary, but I'll sit down tonight and see if I can find it. My old eyes are shot for now.

I sure wish that we could post Japanese characters in this forum!!!!!

More on this later.

Frank

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2005 7:41:39 PM
Message:
Chip, mine is also a rifle. I think they stamped the decomissioned Murata with the "hai-ju" mark before handing it down to civilian training purposes.

Francis, the Kanji "hai" used on both the above photos (T-38 and T-22) is the old style writing and you will probably not find it in the MS Mincho list.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/04/2005 7:41:43 PM
Message:
Dear Chip and Taehito;

I quickly found both the HAI character in the dictionary and in MSMincho. Apparently there are 'old' and 'new', or simplified, character versions. The older style is what is used on the rifle. I suspect that indeed it does mean scrap/discard. This character has been reported on other Jinsen trainers and I am sure it means use of rejected parts completed during the de-bugging process as the production line was set up. The reject parts, together with parts which passed inspection as needed, were used to help train workers how to assemble the weapons. Not to waste anything, they were designated as trainers and had the 'blank ammo only' writing on the dust cover to make sure they were never fired with full power ammo.

Very interesting example.

Frank

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/04/2005 7:43:06 PM
Message:
Can anyone make out the character on the bolt handle? I tried to magnify it, etc. but no go.

Frank

Reply author: rpf2697
Replied on: 12/04/2005 10:36:41 PM
Message:
Very nice photos.. is this in excellent condition or "like new"? It appears unfired in the photos.

Reply author: Edokko
Replied on: 12/04/2005 11:17:47 PM
Message:
I cannot make out that Kanji either.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 12/05/2005 10:52:31 AM
Message:
Frank - I'll try to get you some better pictures... lighting was atrocious in the room I was taking the photos. There is a lot of Kanji here and there on it, and I'll try to get more detailed photos.

rpf - it pretty much is now - there was a little surface rust on the buttplate and a LOT of dust. The nice thing about disassembling the rifle is that I was able to give it a thorough clean all over. This is a "for education" rifle, and although it has all of the parts to fire normally, the Kanji on the dustcover indicates that you're not supposed to...

One interesting thing - when I ran a boresnake through the barrel, it seemed to hang up part of the way through. I'm wondering if there isn't a narrow spot in that barrel...

Reply author: szeigler
Replied on: 12/05/2005 3:13:38 PM
Message:
Thoughts to ponder....

Mike, damn find find. Congrats!! I'll give you my correct spelling for inclusion in your will.

I don't remember this theme being discussed before....

"For Education Only" = "Pre-Production" Rifles. Where the rifles intended train the machinist and production personnel on the proper technics and procedures of producing these rifles ala a practice run similiar to what the U.S. did with the 80 preproduction M-1 Garands? The rifles were never intended to leave the factory after they were produced, but found there way out as the war deteriorated and/or were liberated by occuping GIs? Any thoughts.

Jinsen 38 are beautifully made rifles. A general statement of the obvious.... 38's in general are much more attractively made and finish rifles compared to 99s. Undervalued in my book.

Enjoy, Shannon

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/05/2005 5:18:24 PM
Message:
Dear Shannon and others:

You have hit it right on the head. I am sure that they were assembly line training weapons. They appear to have been used both to train the machinists in producing the parts and assembly line workers in putting them together.

Serail number 266 is also reported to have the same HAI stamp in the same location. Another rifle is reported to have the bore off center in the barrel! Thus, it would not surprise me that a barrel also had a narrow area inside the barrel.

I imagine that these rifles were confiscated after the end of war in Korea and found their way to the U.S. as souvennirs. Can not prove it however.

The high serial number positively identified is sn 371. Does anyone have one with a higher number?????

Frank


Reply author: Quigley
Replied on: 12/06/2005 10:12:52 AM
Message:
Friends, with fingolfen's permission, I have posted some further clean-ups of his images. Q

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http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12393&d=1192414698


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Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/06/2005 4:57:16 PM
Message:
Many thanks quigley for the addtional clarity. The stamp under the chamber is definately the HAI character. Please see the attached image. I hope that it comes out posting this way.

This is the same character as that found on sn 266.

Frank

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/06/2005 4:57:57 PM
Message:
Many thanks quigley for the addtional clarity. The stamp under the chamber is definately the HAI character. Please see the attached image. I hope that it comes out posting this way.

This is the same character as that found on sn 266.

Frank

Reply author: jangle
Replied on: 12/07/2005 10:18:55 PM
Message:
I was talking with another board member a few weeks back concerning the possiblity that Kokura Arsenal had a hand in getting the Jinsen Arsenal up and running. I say this because my Jinsen T-38 "For Education" rifle, #58 has the Kokura 2nd factory stamp in two places that I can find, and my friend has been looking at a pre- production Jinsen T-99, w/o serial number also with Kokura factory stampings. It seams that I've heard or read something about this in the past. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Thanks,
jangle

Reply author: Stan Zielinski
Replied on: 12/08/2005 09:30:15 AM
Message:
As many of you may know, after WWII the US conducted a series of surveys to assess the effectiveness of US bombing. The reports on Japan included a number of items dealing with ordnance production. I do not have my notes at hand but, as I recall, it was stated that in (late?) 1944 Kokura rifle production machinery was shifted to Korea (Jinsen?)perhaps as part of the plan to set up a base on mainland China to continue the fight no matter what.

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 12/08/2005 10:10:14 AM
Message:
My rifle related questions 1) are the "For Education" Jinsen type 38s the pre production run of initial 38s made at Jinsen? 2) did they continue with the "For Education" rifles during production of normal 38s? 3) Was there an overlap in type 99 production? Arsenal making both type 38s as well as 99s?

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 12/08/2005 11:52:03 AM
Message:
Dear Stan:

Kokura did transfer Type 38 machinery to Jinsen to help set up the arsenal, but I think the date was earlier, perhaps as early as August 1942. Jinsen did not have a stock making potential until Type 99 production commenced, so all stocks that I have seen on Jinsens', both training and 30th Series, have at least one Kokura inspection stamp.

Dear Jareth;

It is my belief that that "For Education" few hundred rifles were preproduction examples manufactured to help test both the parts making capability and probably also to train the assembly line workers. The inspection process was clearly in disarray on these early rifles. The known high serial number at this point is only 371. Since quality could not be assure the got the 'Firing of live ammo prohibited' notation on the dust cover.

I do not think that there was an overlap of production between the Type 38 and Type 99. Only approximately 400 of the "for education" training rifles were made and only about 13,000 rifles in the 30th Series were made before Jinsen really got into quantity production capability. I can not find any reason to see an overlap. I doubt that they had the capacity to run two production lines. It is too bad that the commanding general of the arsenal ordered that all records from the arsenal be destroyed before we arrived to occupy Inchon. Apparently his orders were followed to the letter.

One interesting point on the 30th Series is that the high two serial numbers, 12217 and 12881, both have very odd finishes to the metal parts. It seems to be a grey/black paint. Also even 12881 has a Kokura inspected stock.

Frank

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 12/08/2005 7:37:00 PM
Message:
Frank - on the "no series" Jinsens - only the first 370+ or so were the "for education". Have you ever seen a "no series" with a mum (or that clearly had a mum at one point)??? There were only, what' 1300 or so "no series" Jinsens?

 

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Discussion Starter #4
The credit for this post goes to Franchi! He pointed it out and asked me to move it for him.
 

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I've got a better camera rig now if anyone is interested in more photos of this beast.
 

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Sure,
have at it and let's see the best you can do.
 
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