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Joe Turner
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 12:30:02 AM
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I recently acquired a Japanese Type I rifle made by Beretta. It appears to be in excellent condition, most of the original finish appears to be there - overall a nice rifle. The stock is very blond with some staining near metal fittings. I suspect it has been refinished but the wood is still proud around the metal and retains stamps and numbers here and there. Am looking forward to shooting this rifle quite a bit, what hand loads I have fired show no stressing of the brass in any way. Anybody here interested in the TypeI and want to pass alonng hints, tips about shooting this rifle.
If there is someone who is doing research on this model rifle send me an email at; [email protected] and I will send you pics and a listing of all marks and numbers. Joe



DMala
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 1:29:35 PM
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They are typically very accurate and pleasant to shoot. I noticed that handloads from my Type I, when neck-sized and reloaded, did not chamber in an Arisaka of a friend (the chamber of the Type I might have been at the upper limit of the range, or vice-versa the Arisaka has a tight one: I had no pressure problems at all). In my two samples the cleaning rods tend to get loose from the retaining spring while shooting.

If you can post here the serial number (even partially obscured), and whether or not it has a shortened stock, I will add the info to my records, thansk for the offer.



Joe Turner
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 6:31:04 PM
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DMala, Thanks for the reply. My handloads are pretty mild but the Type I is indeed a pleasant gun to shoot. It sort of feels strange shooting a Carcano bolt rifle witha Mauser type magazine and Japanese profile. The bolt on mine is a beautiful mottled gray with a hint of color here and there from the heat treating and is reasonably smooth. I am glad I picked this specimen up. I have a nice Carcano M91 made Torre Annunziata in 1893 and it shoots well also. This one is complete and unmessed with as all marks are clear, stock cartouche is still there and wood and metal have a nice patina-no rust and a nice bore. Joe



WesinMI
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 4:35:12 PM
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Curious to know what made you decide it was a Beretta? What is marking under the receiver. I have one I recently bought with a mark that looks like "AA" leaning against each other and "39". I think this is Brescia but not sure. Any info appreciated.



DMala
Posted - 11/23/2005 : 1:59:18 PM
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Originally posted by WesinMI
Curious to know what made you decide it was a Beretta? What is marking under the receiver. I have one I recently bought with a mark that looks like "AA" leaning against each other and "39". I think this is Brescia but not sure. Any info appreciated.
The serial numbers were assigned in blocks to various makers, that's how you find out where the Type I was made. Some small stamps, for example on the rear sight, may be different between makers. The stamp you refer to probably is a stylized "FNA" (Fabbrica Nazionale D'Armi)



WesinMI
Posted - 11/23/2005 : 4:19:48 PM
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Where is the list of serial number blocks. Mine is the "H" block.
 

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Tipo I Late War Issue 1944-45 2/04

Alexnder another Type I post, David
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TIPO I LATE WAR ISSUE 1944-45
Anthony Posted - 02/18/2004

I have noted a greater interest in the IJN Type I 6.5MM on the boards lately, but too many still dismiss this weapon out of hand. It might be true that the weeapon was not favored by Japanese troops, or it just might be that with such a low production figure (60,000 total) Japanese troops did not run across this model often enough to have any opinion.

But it seems apparent to me from having an interest in this model because of my Dad's exposure to it in the hands of Japanese Naval troops in the Philippines in 1944-45 that a large number of these
were issued and used in 1944-45 by the IJN.

It was used extensively in combat by both regular and irregular Japanese Naval forces in 1944-45 whenever they were used in the role of infantry.

By 1944 the SNLF/Marines had become improvised units of naval troops and not the well trained elite units my Dad and Uncles faced on Guadalcanal in 1942. These late war SNLF units were encountered in large numbers at Manila in 1944 under the command of Vice Admiral Sanji Iwabuchi for example. They fought to the last man, but lacked the training and professionalism of the SNLF/Marines that Dad faced on the Canal. These improvised naval troops also were used on Leyte in 1944. The Type I was frequently encountered in both these late war engagements first at Leyte and later at Manila. However, it is true that the Type 99 and Type 38 were the most common weapons earlier in the war on the Canal even in the hands of crack SNLF troops.

My point being that the Type I, based on what I was told, and my research was encountered more frequently from 1943 on, and in greater numbers in 1944-45 especially! Battles fought on Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Leyte, Manila, and even Okinawa saw substantial numbers of the Type I in the hands of both well trained SNLF and improvised Naval detachments including late war SNLF of lesser quality.

The Type I guns are often in excellent condition simply because they got issued late in the war at a time when overwhelming US military power assured the quick and sudden death of the IJN trooper just issued this fine weapon in the desperate battles of 1944-45.

My father thought all the Japanese 6.5X50mm weapons were excellent
jungle warfare guns and accurate all purpose shooters. He kept several for hunting and such during his time in the Pacific 1942-45. He also mentioned that his favorite was the odd bird he picked up on Leyte that had no Mum. At the time this confused him as to the weapon's origin.

In conclusion, I think too many serious Japanese small arms collectors dismiss the Type I as an unimportant rifle in the Japanese hands in the Pacific War. This is in fact not the case, especially in the great slaughter of IJN improvised land formations in 1944-45. Too me, it's lack of appreciation reminds me of German K98k collectors turning their noses up at the 1944-45 kriegsmodells 10-15 years or more ago. Today the 1945 kriegsmodells are prized variations in any serious K98k collection

I think Japanese WWII rifle collectors will eventually feel the same way about the "TIPO I" as German WWII rifle collectors feel about the kriegsmodell variation of the K98k do today.

Anthony Fortino
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CW Posted - 02/18/2004

Do you think the "no mum" rifle that your father found was a Type I? Is he still around to ask?
I don't think anyone discounts them completely. They just happen to have a high survival rate in very good condition. If i found a T44 in great shape and a Type I in similar shape, I would tend to grab the T44, just because I know that chance are, I'll see another nice Type I before I see another T44.
Just a thought.
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pt460 Posted - 02/18/2004

Nice write up. I have always thought that it was a mistake to discount the Type I. I had one, traded it off, and have since bought another. No Japanese collection should be without one!!
I think we will see the prices on these start to take off as people learn about them and decide they want to own one.
How many T44's were made? About 80,000? and only 60,000 Type I's, some of which were delivered on submarines? Interesting...
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Fatstrat Posted - 02/19/2004

It seemes logical that towards the end of the war, Japanese troops would be happy to be issued the well made, with adj. sights Type I, rather than an LD T-99.
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Carcano Posted - 02/20/2004

From the serial numbers which we know, about 120,000 Type I rifles have been made, probably ordered and delivered in two separate batches.

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

I am by no stretch a Carcano historian, but I have a few questions.

1)In several publications they use Italian documents to verify a total production of 60,000 Tipo I included in both contracts. Have you found any Italian or Japanese documents or publications of same that indicate in actuality it was double the 60,000 Tipo I number quoted?

2) I also read that a total of 15 suffix blocks (nothing for the first batch then A-N) were used. In European prewar serial number systems the number of guns is usually 10,000 guns total per suffix. So this would agree with your approximate total, but again published sources state that each suffix used for the Tipo I was not a full run of 10,000. My question is have you found sources that confirm each Tipo I suffix was for 10,000 guns? Or is it a guess based on the number of suffixes?


In my own experience collecting Nazi contract K98k like the Portuguese M941 for example the Germans diverted large numbers for their own use from this export contract. They also ran the suffixes used through multiple models they supplied Portugal with over a number of contracts/years. Finally they just plain short shipped and cheated the Portuguese on the number of M941 contract guns delivered. In the end K98k collectors estimated far fewer M941 made then suffixes used!

Might this example also have been the case with Italian production of the Tipo I too?

Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/21/2004

quote:
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Originally posted by Anthony

I am by no stretch a Carcano historian, but I have a few questions.

1)In several publications they use Italian documents
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Well, not to my knowledge, which - alas - evidently is scanty in areas Japanese. I only know about the footnoted reference in Honeycutt/Anthony (Fn. 40 and 41), of two letters from the Pietro Beretta company written in 1969; statements which might be correct or incorrect, written 28 years after the fact.
I would however be very glad to know more about such documents, since they must indeed exist. Maybe even the actual delivery specification are conserved somewhere deep in Italian military archives, like with the German-Japanese Kar 98k contract ? That would be wonderful !


quote:
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to verify a total production of 60,000 Tipo I included in both contracts. Have you found any Italian or Japanese documents or publications of same that indicate in actuality it was double the 60,000 Tipo I number quoted?
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Yes, the most valuable documents: real items. The serial numbers which I have observed span from A to L (this also observed in "Military Rifles of Japan", 5th ed.), and you have now added M and N; from A to L, they always appear to be going over the whole 10,000 range. If you need an extensive listing, I can email it.

Best regards and thanks for your interest,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

The contract guns made by Germany and Italy for other nations just prior to and during WWII were not run in large groups, as they had to accomodate their own military first. So you might see Beretta run a couple thousand Type I for Japan in the A suffix A0001-A2000) then make arms in the same suffix and serial number range for another model intended for Italian military use lets say eight thousand guns A suffix A2001-A10000, and then make another two thousand Type I in the B suffix range B0001-B2000, and then again break the suffix and serial to produce more guns for their own use in this suffix and serial number range B2001-B7000 before going back. So that might very well be why the records indicate total production for the Japanese Type I of 60,000. Yet you see Type I suffix/serial number ranges that run a much larger gambit.

Why you ask would they do this?

First, because these foreign contracts were not a priority as they (Germany & Italy)geared up for WWII!

Second, because the firms were often hiding these contracts true value from their own governments to avoid taxes and kickbacks to their own governments.

Third, and to insure their respective governments did not stop them from making large numbers of guns for other nations when their own military needed millions of guns to fight the Allies in WWII. Heck these foreign nations often paid more for the same amount of material and work to German and Italian arms firms!

So, with no disrespect intended I will continue to believe the Italian arms firms records so far published that suggest no more then 60,000 Type I were made by Italy for Japan in 1938-39 until new Italian documents or published documents alter this figure. Or more then 60,000 serial numbers are reported for this model to a respected collector database.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/21/2004

Carcano I like your Carcano web page very much, but I just think you don't have the data to alter the published estimated production figures for the Type I of 60,000. Plus, IMHO an absolutely mint/complete with sling/rod Type I is worth more then the 250.00 US Dollars posted on your web page as a price guideline! Especially in light of low/rare published production figures and the Japanese Naval connection historically.

You just seem to be selling the collector interest in the Type I short too.

Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/22/2004

quote:
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Originally posted by Anthony

So you might see Beretta run a couple thousand Type I for Japan in the A suffix A0001-A2000) then make arms in the same suffix and serial number range for another model intended for Italian military use lets say eight thousand guns A suffix A2001-A10000, and then make another two thousand Type I in the B suffix range B0001-B2000, and then again break the suffix and serial to produce more guns for their own use in this suffix and serial number range B2001-B7000 before going back. So that might very well be why the records indicate total production for the Japanese Type I of 60,000. Yet you see Type I suffix/serial number ranges that run a much larger gambit.
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You really don't know that rifle, do you ?
The Type I was NEVER used by any other force than Japan and (captured) China. It was never issued in Italy, with the exception of maybe a tiny number of stray rifles from production leftovers.

In addition: The Italian numbering system in WW II is fairly sequential, and the "jumping letter prefix blocks", probably intended to keep the actual production activity somewhat secret, ended before WW I. There are indeed a _few_ exceptions, of which you may be aware (notably some inconsistencies of dates and letter prefix with M 91/38 and M 91/41 rifles), and you are more than welcome to offer your opinion on them, maybe even an explanation. But these do not pertain to the specific field which we are discussing here.


quote:
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So, with no disrespect intended I will continue to believe the Italian arms firms records so far published that suggest no more then 60,000 Type I were made by Italy for Japan in 1938-39 until new Italian documents or published documents alter this figure.
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You have not quoted (or pointed to) any published source hitherto, although they might of course exist: I do not negate the statement as such, just ask for a bit of corroboration.

It appears - but this is no more than a hypothesis until now - that the initial contract for 60,000 rifles was extended with a follow-up contract.

Sincerely,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

McCollum, Duncan O. Japanese Rifles Of World War II
Excalibur Publications:Latham, NY 1996

Quote Page 27

"Contracts with the Italians called for supplying 60,000 Type I rifles to the Japanese."

Anthony Fortino
---------------------------------------------

Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

I would appreciate your use/listing of primary documents and secondary sources that have been published to refute the 60,000 Type I production figure mentioned.

What about this 25000 dollar value on a Mint/Excellent example you
put on your web page. Do you think that is truly realistic, becaause it seems low to me? Look at the prices of Imperial Japanese Naval Type 35, Type 99 etc..

The Type I is not an Italian Carcano. It is a hybrid Arisaka/Carcano of unique design for the I.J.N.!

Cheers
Anthony Fortino
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Carcano Posted - 02/22/2004

Ah; thanks for the friendly follow-up and answer. No real sources thus on your side, just a general collectors' booklet which itself is based on secondary sources in respect to the question which we examine here. I do not doubt that the first contract may well have stipulated a number of 60,000 rifles The exact size of the second contract we do not know yet, but the induction from the observed serial numbers seems realistic. Anyone out here who would have seen serials in the M and N range too ?

I do think that the missing data will be unearthed from Italian archives quite conclusively (either military archives, with the usual difficulties of accessing them, or the archive of the ministry of foreign affairs). After all, this specific rifle contract was of some propagandistic importance for the largely illusionary "Pact of Steel" (which is why the Japanese inspection delegation was photographed at all), and this means that even secondary scholarly sources or treatises (as which neither McCollum nor Hobbs could be regarded, nor do they purport to be), such as monographies or articles on Italian-Japanese relationships in WW II and before, might include a mentioning of this.

The Navy provenance of the Type I does mean absolutely zero as to an estimate of its value. Navy and Army were concurring branches in many respects (militarily and politically), including the infantry. The SNLF and the Naval Base Guard Detachments (there is a more specific military denomination for the latter, but it escapes me now) were just ordinary infantry of the navy, though a bit more "chosen" in size.

The sometimes-found moniker "marines" is technically debatable - is the USMC really subordinated under the USN, such as the SNLF were to the IJN ? I do not think so, though I do not know when exactly it gained its autonomy. And semantically it is very misleading for a US readership, since the unavoidable parallel connotation of it indirectly bestows an "elite" status upon these troops (in training and prowess) which they really never had, as much as I have read.

Sincerely,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano
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Franchi Posted - 02/22/2004

I would like to add my info/opinion on the Type I discussion. The rifle Anthony's father had without a Mum could also have been a Mukden Type 38 rifle as early examples were made without a Mum, and Japanese Army units were transferred from China to reinforce the Philippines, your Fathers rifle may have been one of these. I would think most U.S. G.I's wouldn't know the difference between a Type 38, 02/45, or Type I, etc They would only be able to tell if a rifle was a 6.5 or 7.7, most couldn't even tell a trainer rifle from a standard issue rifle. I believe reported serials are a better indicator of how many rifles were made than any other source, even information from the "Factory".

I have a copy of a letter (from the April 1990 Banzai) from Pietro Beretta talking about Type I's (on their letter head) dated Jan. 15th, 1965 to William B. Mozey Jr., Cptn. U.S. Army. In their letter Beretta states: "....Our Company was the prime contractor and manufactured the barrel, the receiver and other main components, caring for the assembly and testing of the weapons-sub-contractors were:
.
F.A.E.T. - Fabbrica d'Armi Regio Esercito Sez. di Gardone Valtrompia
(Bs)
.
F.N.A. - Fabbrica Nazional Armi, Brescia.
p.t.o.
.
On the whole during the period 1938-1939 about 20,000 rifles of this model were manufactured....."
.
If you take this letter at its face value there are only 20,000 Type I's. I can't find my copy, but I believe Fred Honeycutt has a letter from Beretta stating there were 60,000 Type I's manufactured. Which is it, 20,000 or 60,000? By serials observed looks like 120,000.
.
Serials collected by my brother and I and Dick Hobbs indicate there were at least 120,000 Type I's manufactured. Below are the reported serials. I don't believe there are "skipped" serial in the blocks. I have never seen or heard of any "M" or "N" prefix serial Type I's, also there are no rifles reported without a serial prefix.
.
As to value, even if an item is rare doesn't make it valuable, if no one wants it. Italian Type I rifles aren't that desirable to the majority of collectors. The asking price is about $250 for a very nice rifle, most don't sell fast at this price.
Gary & David Franchi
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Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.
.
A prefix serials: 277 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6882 8860
.
B prefix serial: 743 1811 3956 5887 6042 6815 7388 7501 8241 9553 9567 9930
.
C prefix : 149 221 378 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8276 8818 9425
.
D prefix: 33 356 932 1619 3440 36xx 4138 7100 8026 8191 9191
.
E prefix: 90 184 325 853 1194 2194 4272 4989 5888 5914 6432 8645 8817 9528 9781
.
F prefix: 125 982 3203 4526 7240 8359 9632
.
G prefix: 234 841 925 986 1507 2631 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8582 9344
.
H prefix: 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 9223
.
I prefix: 848 849 1196 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562
.
J prefix: 708 887 2433 5549 7563 9944
.
K prefix: 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984

L prefix: 1995 3434 4836 61xx 6262 8532 9192
----------------------

Some of the above serials have additional data as follows:
.
A4834 has Japanese Kanji & sling also Nagoya proofed on bottom of stock.
.
B5887 has a Mum, under buttplate carved in wood " PT. RUNYAN 1st MARINE DIV. PELELIU 1938 MADE IN TERNI ITALY".
.
C5118 is a Chinese Import to the U.S.
.
D356 has" Type 45" in paint vertical on stock.
.
D3440 (SAG inside a diamond on top of rear sight ladder).
.
E184 short stock variation, came with Japanese bayonet
.
E5914 has metal painted black and has a sporterized stock.
.
F7240 has a 1"x3" (silver) plaque on the left side stock above triggerguard.
.
F8359 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
.
G925 (88 over 17 separated by a horizontal line painted in white paint on right buttstock).
.
G1507 has Japanese sling, Okinawa capture 1945.
.
G986 has Japanese sling.
.
G5835 has Japanese sling with white Kanji.
.
G6601 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
.
I849 "2" behind trigger guard.
.
I1196 "2" behind trigger guard, from "Sabu Nagaski Japan"
.
I5205 has Japanese Naval Anchor (ToyoKawa) on stock behind triggerguard tang.
.
I5206 GB in an oval on stock behind triggerguard tang, and six black Kana characters on the right hand buttstock.
.
J2433 is sporterized, from Burma.
.
K1594 has Japanese sling
.
K7593 has Japanese sling with white Kanji.
.
K 8932, sling w/kanji, remnants of Kanji on underside of stock, below rear band. Receiver has original purplish coloring to finish. No history.
.
L3434 (has an anchor under the serial number).
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CW Posted - 02/22/2004

Franchi made a good point about the possibility of it being an early Mukden. There is always a chance.
Could there be a possability of the M and N block rifles never making it to Japan; that is, they were sunk in transport? Surely, not all of these rifles made it, or once delivered, surely some of them went to the bottom while in the ships rifle racks.

I do have a question for you gents. Are there any variations within the A-L production or were these rifles kept fairly uniform throughout?
TIA
-Chris
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Anthony Posted - 02/22/2004

I appreciate the information all posters have provided, but I will await your future research and discovery of Italian source documents before I ignore the Beretta firm's published data that stated that no more than 60,000 Type I were produced in total.

The Beretta firm suggested they produced 20,000 of the 60,000 Type I manufactured, and that two other firms produced the rest from my understanding of the published Beretta sources.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/23/2004

As To Value! I have followed this models value for at least 6 years and I have seen them go for 200-250, but only in good condition with missing cleaning rods and slings.

The VG-Excellent Type I guns with cleaning rods and slings have been selling for 300-400 on average for 6 years. I believe that when collectors understand that they are low production 60,000 Total, IJN Exclusive, (Japanese Navy arms are sought after), and a unique Hybrid Arisaka/Carcano design then they will sell for more in the future in VG-Excellent Condition with rods/slings.

In the meantime I guess some guys are gonna grab all the nice ones up
as cheap as possible and make a lot of dough when the above happens! They did the same thing with those cheap Type 38 and Type 99 Japanese models that sold for 10-20 bucks a decade or more ago. Now the Type 38 and Type 99 sell for 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, etc. depending on condition, features, and Mum or not! A heck of an investment and subsequent profit for those folks who bought em cheap back when.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/24/2004

Two Interesting Points

1)In response to the question if it was a Type I my Dad found on Leyte? Yes it was a Type I. I was given the gun by him in 1973 and won't be selling it anytime soon.

2)I know a German collector who has a Type I chambered in 8MM Mauser, with some interesting German WWII proofs, that was a Vet bring back from Italy in 1945! Some told him he was crazy when he bought the gun, and that it must have been a Chinese conversion. They went on to state it couldn't be an ETO Type I.

Yet, I noted the Carcano collectors in this thread did say that small numbers of Type I found their way into the Italian war effort during the war!

THANKS AGAIN FOR THE RESPONSES

Anthony Fortino
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gwsiii Posted - 02/24/2004

For your records....
K 8932, sling w/kanji, remnants of Kanji on underside of stock, below rear band. Receiver has original purplish coloring to finish No history. Trey
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Franchi Posted - 02/24/2004

CW...Since no "M" or "N" serials have been reported and, as far as I know, Beretta etc. never listed any serial numbers, I don't believe any "M" or "N" prefix serials were produced. Don''t know where Duncan McCollum got his info but I will contact him and find out. No "M" or "N" serials have ever been reported in Banzai, which is the main source of his information.
If all the Type I's were produced in 1938-39 they should have been sent to Japan by Dec. 7th 1941, so they wouldn't have been sunk on the way to Japan. There could be large groups aboard various ships, trains, or storage buildings which could have been destroyed by bombing during the war, but I don't think a complete letter serial block would be together.
There isn't much variation throughout the serial blocks except for different color oil or stain used to color the stocks. Also some rifles have a shorter stock, most rifles are 50 3/4" total overall length, but some are 49 1/2".
.
Anthony.. I would be very interested in more information on the Type I your German Collector friend has in 8mm with German markings. Did you see this rifle? If not, is it possible he has mistaken it for a German "H&K" conversion of an Italian Model 41 long rifle? Please find out additional information on this rifle.
David Franchi
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AZBronco Posted - 02/24/2004

for your serial number list, have seen E4578

Don Blosser

Rest In Peace Don Posted - 02/24/2004

Mine is F4670. Barrel is marked FAT (Fabbrica di Armi Terni?) on the underside. It appears to have never been issued.
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Anthony Posted - 02/28/2004

My Leyte capture is a Type I with a Beretta "PB" marked bolt and a Terni "Fat" proofed barrel in the 49.5 inch shorter stock, kanji proofed sling, original cleaning rod present, and serial number D24XX. The condition is VG, but it does show battle use and is not an unissued weapon.

Anthony Fortino
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Anthony Posted - 02/28/2004

Last question on Type I. If as Carcano stated more then 60,000 were manufactured based on serial numbers recorded does this indicate production might have also taken place during WWII, past 1941 for example?

Anthony Fortino
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Fatstrat Posted - 02/28/2004

In regards to Carcano's statement concerning the Japanese Navy and Army being concuring entities, I might disagree. (if I understand you correctly)
From what I've read, the 2 branches were very seperate and operated individualy. And very much in compitition with one another for manpower and supplies.
Much has been written on the Japanese Navy's failure to support infantry, even early in the war, with ship to shore artillery and aircraft support. Some was provided, but not much.
Also I have read that the two branches were competitive to the point that each purposely drafted skilled workers from war industry plants w/contracts to supply the other
I took from this reading the assumption that both of these forces acted individually with very little communication and cooperation. And that weapons contracts were also seperate. Thus we can assume that as the Type I is known to have been largely issued to Naval forces, that it was predomanantly a Naval weapon and can be concidered so. Just My opinion based on my reading.
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Carcano Posted - 02/28/2004

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fatstrat

In regards to Carcano's statement concerning the Japanese Navy and Army being concuring entities, I might disagree. (if I understand you correctly)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You have read correctly, though that was the exact opposite of what I meant. The mistake of expression is mine here; because the verb konkurrieren in German means the exact opposite of "to concur", in spite of the same Latin root; an interesting development apart. However, what I meant to say was that the Japanese army and navy were two strongly rivalling entities, militarily and politically.

Regards,

Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]com
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano

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http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087
 

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Observations on Type "I" serials (7/06)

Observation on Type"I" serial prefixs........

bayoned Posted - 07/22/2006

I have a couple of Type I rifles, a prefixed "B" and "J", and have had a prefixed "G".
In my years of looking at a fair number of these rifles, I've noticed a pattern.
Almost all of the Type I rifles I've seen have later serial number prefixes, very few early alphabet letters.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that most of the Type I rifles that came to the US are late letter blocks?

And if this is true, why?

bayoned
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car99 Posted - 07/22/2006

Mine is L prefixed, and have seen very few A to F. Maybe most of those went down in ships' armories.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/22/2006

There are photos of Japanese naval troops in China with "I"s. I have an 'I' cut to carbine length and converted to 7.62x39 that was one of the 1980s' China imports, Beleive it is D22. There were a number of 'I's mixed with the 38s from China, sory now I did not record the letter prefix. "Old too soon, smart too late."
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

I think these are under-rated, and some of the best shooters, almost T38 clones in many respects. Anyway, I was tracking these for a while a couple of years ago. These are what I have on record:


Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.

According to Japanese Contract Rifles by White and Allan, with research contributed by Keep and Zielinski:

Series A-F - Gardone (includes initial run, no letter prefix) 70K
Series G-J - FNA-Brescia 40K
Series J-L - Beretta 30 K
Totals assume production at 10K per series.

A : 277 1620 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6746 6882 6963 8860 (11)

B : 743 1811 3956 5518 5887 6042 6815 6978 7388 7501 8241 8751 9553 9567 9930 (15)

C :149 221 378 958 3865 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8262 8276 8472 8818 9425 9729 (18)

D : 33 356 799 932 1619 2215 24xx 3440 36xx 4138 6342 7100 8026 8191 9191 (15)

E : 90 184 325 476 853 1184 1194 2194 3737 4272 4578 4989 5888 5914 6432 6785 8391 8645 8817 9528 9781 (21)

F : 125 307 982 1965 2799 3203 4526 4670 5077 7240 7506 8359 9632 (13)

G : 234 512 841 925 986 1441 1507 2142 2631 2666 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8211 8582 9223 9344 (21)

H : 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 7858 9223 (9)

I : 848 849 1196 1869 2160 2324 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562 (11)

J : 708 887 1956 2433 5549 7563 7729 9944 (8)

K : 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8267 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984 (18)

L : 195 1995 3434 4836 5867 61xx 6262 7137 8532 8708 9192 (11)

As you can see, E's & G's are the most reported.

Anymore out there to add to the list?
This is a pitiful showing for the rifle's purported production, depending who you read, of between 120K to 140K.
----------------------------------------------

Jap7.7 Posted - 07/22/2006

The Type I rifles are prefixed with letters A to L. Sometimes the buttstocks are cut down one inch to fit the shorter Japanese soldier. Some stocks are a light blond wood. I have the A through L series collected. I think 60 thousand total were made.

Don Blosser
Rest In Peace Don
----------------------------------------------

USA Posted - 07/22/2006

It is kind of a small sample but there don't appear to be any gaps or short groups in any of the 12 prefixes so I think we can assume that all were full. Ratios of between 8:10,000 and 21:10,000 are probably just indicative of the small sample and I'd expect the groups to even out if there were more respondents. On the other hand it may just mean that for whatever reason the H-I-J group all went to someplace outside of the American zone of occupation. Are there any survival figures for T38 and T99 rifles?

Don B. in Kansas
----------------------------------------------

ncmtnman Posted - 07/22/2006

I have one sn--A1859 the stock has a 14 inch pull that's about one inch longer than the T-99's and T-38's I have. Overall the rifle is in excellent shape with a little discoloration on the stock at the butt blueing is about 90%--no rust on the buttplate.

ncdon
----------------------------------------------

akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Don, I agree.
The statistics are smooth, and there are no sudden breaks.
At the same time, after chasing every one of these listed anywhere for about four years on gunbroker, auctionarms, and here on this site, less than 200 specimens accounted for is remarkable, given what the experts say were produced. And, I have no argument with them.
So, either there are still tons of them out there, or, there are not!
What a thought.
----------------------------------------------

akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Jap7.7,
You've seen the serial numbers, they approach 10,000 per series.

You can do the alphabet, there are 12 alphas.

The experts say that there are 10,000 that had no prefixes. I have never witnessed one of those.

Have any of you ever seen one without an alpha prefix?

So, as ignorant as I am of these, I assert the stats tend to demonstrate 120,000 of these weapons.

Now, for less than 200 to be documented over a 4-6 year period at the height of their popularity, plus the gift of the web to track them, these Type I's are really much more rare than anyone would ever believe, & totally, and completely under-rated and/or appreciated.

And yes, survival rate is what we are talking about here. What's in Davy Jone's Locker doesn't count.

Come on folks, let's post new numbers if you've got 'em.
---------------------------------------------

HowdyDoody Posted - 07/22/2006

akb, I've got F6695. Nicely polished and blued metal, Wood doesn't look like it ever had a coat of anything.

jim
---------------------------------------------

bayoned Posted - 07/23/2006

Well, I started this thread, so here are mine.
B9269 "Long Butt"
J4015 "Short Butt"

bayoned
---------------------------------------------

Rampage19 Posted - 07/23/2006

Here's two more for your list: I8207 and L1661.

Dan Larkin
----------------------------------------------

Mike Rockhill Posted - 07/23/2006

E6820
----------------------------------------------

Jap7.7 Posted - 07/23/2006

AKB, I do not do research, Its all I can do to get time to get to a gunshow. I like collecting and leave the research to the smart guys. The 60K production I mentioned came from MROJ and Japanese Rifles by Duncan Mc Collum. They both state that 60K rifles were ordered. Keep up the research. I like to help so listed are the Type I rifles in my collection.
A1480
B1535
C8270
D6935 short stock
E6774 short stock
F781 short stock
G1730 short stock
H3068
I6731
J3468 short stock
K6744 short stock
L2860 short stock
All are in excellant condition except for the A series which I will upgrade some day.
----------------------------------------------

eulitathomas Posted - 07/23/2006

Hello All - Have A3650 and will be picking up another one in two weeks, F prefix and two Japanese characters painted on stock.
Best regards - Tom
----------------------------------------------

Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

For whatever it's worth, I have a sling from an "I" that has the name of a Japanee Naval base,, unfortunately there was a misunderstanding and the rifle was sold. Some stayed in Japan and were apparently issued for guard duty??? There was an article in the Miliary Rifle Journal some yers back, both short and long stock variations supposedly have Italian proofs in the butt, under the buttplate. If correct then Italy supplied boh lengths.
---------------------------------------------

Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

Dick Hobbs, author of "The Carcano" (out-of-print?) collected 'I' information during his research. He had enough serial numbers/rifle data to be able to determine which facilities fabricated which letter blocks of rifles. This information was reprinted in the book Frank Allan and I wrote, "Japanese Contract Rifles." A few copies are still available
---------------------------------------------

bambach Posted - 07/23/2006

Here is another for the list,

I 93 It is also marked PB which I assume is Pietro Beretta
---------------------------------------------

Type39 Posted - 07/23/2006
For the list, mine is K8391.
---------------------------------------------

car99 Posted - 07/24/2006

I was going to add mine, but I see it's on the list. The rifle is in very good condition, and I know there are reasons why, but I still think it's amazing so many made it through the war and the Bubbas in such good shape.
---------------------------------------------

Ronin48 Posted - 07/24/2006

There is at least one "I" with a mum, on West Coast last I heard. Story is rifle was once ownd by "gentleman' in Rochester, NY. That much is here-say.

"Gentleman" had a mum stamp, that is fact, he offered it to me for $200 and later advertised it in B'ZAI. "Gentleman" sold me a 'sniper stock' for my first 99 sniper that had a heavily sanded stock, this in winter of 82. I was concerned about the color, but he assured me the stock was 'right' and, at the time, he was "Mr Arisaka."

As I gained experience with 'things sniper' I realized the stock had been lightly sanded, the fullers rerouted and, as I original suspected, refinished. So is the mummed "I" authentic? About as authentic as my story of being a belly-gunner on a submarine!
----------------------------------------------

stkman26 Posted - 07/24/2006

Mine is A5536
----------------------------------------------

Franchi Posted - 07/24/2006

Here is a link to a post from Tuco's Japanese Forum from about two years ago on the Type I.
About half way down is a list of serials.

Gary Franchi

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087
----------------------------------------------

rpf2697 Posted - 07/25/2006

Mine is D2144 & it's in excellent condition.
----------------------------------------------

vis35 Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is B9681, it is in excellent condition too. I do not know what is “long” or “short” but it’s LOP is 14 ¼”. Has the cleaning rod and sling.
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Zip Code Posted - 07/26/2006

Hello there:
I have L 1583 w/ the correct cleaning rod. Sort of rough bore, but over all it's pretty nice.

Zip Code
----------------------------------------------

Ogtree Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is #K8040. It appears to be unissued. The two-piece stock is bare untreated wood. The case hardening on receiver and bolt is mint, including the bolt face. Bolt parts are marked "PB".
Thanks!

Ogtree
----------------------------------------------

bayoned Posted - 07/28/2006

One more to add.....
G2420 Long butt.

bayoned
----------------------------------------------

JoeWest Posted - 07/28/2006

I've got A2769
----------------------------------------------

WesinMI Posted - 07/31/2006

I have H6742
----------------------------------------------

Racepres Posted - 07/31/2006

G1133, LOP= 14.25 good to VG w/ cleaning rod, no sling. MV
----------------------------------------------

stevenjay1 Posted - 08/01/2006

AKB, Here is another...H428
----------------
----------------

http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=175127
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Great! Many thanks! Are these from the Japanese Forum? I have not yet been able to peruse it. :-(
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Lanceri Novara 5
Posted - 02/11/2006 : 2:17:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good evening Sirs,
I have something about the type 1 rifle. The following note is from an italian weapons magazine:

In 1937, during Chino-Japanese War, Imperial Army placed an order for 60.000 rifles Arisaka type 38 in Italy, an allied Axis country. Italian Arsenal of Terni (FAET - Fabbrica d’Armi dell’Esercito Terni - Army Weapons Factory) wasn’t in condition to supply the rifles, the production line was organized for ‘91 guns and there isn’t the adeguate machinery and tools to produce Arisaka 38 and wasn’t cost effective rise up a production line for this gun. Japanese and FAET agree for an ibryd model: stock, barrel, sight, caliber and feeding was derived from Arisaka, bolt was a modified ’91 action.
Weapons was produced in 60.000 pieces by FAET and FNA Brescia (Fabbrica Nazionale d’Armi di Brescia – National Weapons Factory – Brescia). The stock was in two pieces according with japanese original item, barrel length 12 cm shorter than Arisaka with 4 groove, the feeding device was Mauser derivation with a 5 rounds magazine. Bolt action is, obviously, ’91 derived with minimal modification.
The rifle was accurate built with hight quality steel, according pre-war italian weaponry production.
In 1939 the japanese contract was over, the rifle was given to second line troops.
It is interesting to note that FAET designed a modification of 91-38 rifle, chambered for 7,35 round and with a Mauser magazine. In fact the weak point of 91-38 was just the alimentation device and the cartridge. War was coming soon and no new rifle entered in service with Regio Esercito (Royal Army – Italian)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jacklancer



DMala
Posted - 02/13/2006 : 3:57:30 PM
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Ciao Lanceri, Beretta also produced Type Is...



Ronin48
Posted - 02/16/2006 : 10:09:38 PM
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An unknown number of Type "I"s went to the China-Burma-Theater. I 'dug' through around 2,000 or more Arisakas when they were imported from China in the mid-1980s and ran across several 'well-used" Type "I"s. Even picked up one the PRC boys shortened to carbine length and converted to 7.62x39. This 'bad boy' is for sale or trade.
 

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Italo-Japanese Type "I" Rifles.

Just a ***-bit of information regarding the shipping of the Type "I" rifles...Although mostly manufactured in 1838-39, as otherwise stated, and shi[pped by Cargo vessels via the Suez canal before 1940, the last delivery of Rifles was after Italy had entered the War, in June 1940. This last delivery was over the period 1940-early 1941, by Italian Royal Navy Cargo Submarine, from Monfalcone (the Shipyards near Venice) for Kobe, Japan, via the Straights of Gibraltar, the Atlantic and from there uncertain ( either the Pacific (safer) or the Indian Ocean--more risky); after 1941, the Italians had a submarine tender base at Singapore, comprised of the survivors of the original Base in Eritrea, AOI, and some sailors a from the Italian base at Tentsin as well. After 1943 (Armistice) a lot of the Italian sailors were amalgamated with German Units in both Singapore and China to continue supporting the (Northern) Italian Social Republic's naval effort with their Axis partners in the Eastern Theatre, and to service the continuing traffic of Cargo Subs.

Both Italian and German Cargo Subs did regular runs to Japan after 1941, taking radio equipment and medical supplies,etc, and returning with Strategic raw materials, such as Tin, Rubber, Tungsten, etc from Southeast Asia under Japanese control. The Last Cargo U-Boat successfully returned to Germany after the German Surrender in May 1945.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics
 

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Thanks for the info DOC. An info on Beretta M1935 pistols being sent to Japan from June to Aug. 1944?
David Franchi
 

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900 Posts
Type "I" cleaning rod info

Type "I" cleaning rod

dlemaster Posted - 07/29/2004

Hi
Recently I was given two japanese rifles one is a type 38 and the other is a type "I" they were in someones trash and a friend asked if he could have them and they said yes then he gave them to me. Both are in excellent condition, very minor dings in the wood that will steam out, and the type "I" even has an original leather sling with kanji on in white paint.
Neither rifle has a cleaning rod, and I know someone is making repos for the type 38. My question is, is there anyone making a repo cleaning rod for the type "I"? I would like to get one just to make this rifle look complete.
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards, Dave
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mac46

Dave, Real stroke of luck on your part. Must be doing something right. Any chance of posting some photos of the Type I rifle and especially the sling? TIA Regarsd Mac
----------------------------------------------

Fatstrat

I know of no one making any kind of repro item for the Type I. And original T-I rods are fairly scarce and (of coarse) expensive. I personally have never even seen one except in pictures When I got my T-I, it was minus rod (as seems to be VERY common on these). I looked around for a rod, but I just couldn't go $75-$100 for a CLEANING ROD! Hell, I only gave $125 for the rifle. I just use a T-38 Rod. It's not technically correct, but it works in the rod release mech., and is better than nuthin IMO.
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Jareth

I read somewhere (Jerry Price?) that type I cleaning rods had a star stamped into the side of the rod head.
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Fatstrat

Plus I think they are partly made of wood.
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Jareth

You are kidding about the wood?
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GUN HO

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jareth

You are kidding about the wood?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have two type 1 s the cleaning rods have no star and no wood, both are the same. GUN HO
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Franchi

Many T-I's have a little 5 pointed star stamped on the slotted section. I think this is an Italian marking as the same star mark is used on Italian Carcano parts. It is a small mark so you have to look closely. See attached photo, hope it shows up.

Gary Franchi




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garfield

The I Type cleaning rod is two piece, all metal. The 4 1/4" long tip is sweated to the rod.
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dlemaster

To all
Thanks for all the information, it is appreciated.
----------------------------------------------

Jareth
Do you have an adress or email for Jerry Price?
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Mac46

I'm almost completely computer illiterate but I will try get some pics and get someone to help me post them.

Thanks again to everyone.
Dave
----------------------------------------------

Ronin48

Don Schlickman makes excellent reproductions, [email protected]
-----------------
-----------------

http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55331
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Anthony
Posted - 05/22/2004 : 12:19:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have one my Dad took from them during that last battle for Leyte! It is true that he took only one Type I, but with a force of 400 men total in that SNLF unit you can surmise that more then that particular Japanese Marine alone carried the Type I. Plus my research on the Type I indicates it generally was not seen until the battles the SNLF participated in until 1943 through 1945 in great numbers.

This is my opinion based on my research, but I don't claim to be any sort of expert in these matters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Fortino



DocAV
Posted - 12/13/2004 : 11:40:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both the Germans and the Italians used Cargo Submarines to shift quantites of strategic materials (Rubber, Tin, Wolframite (tungsten ore)and other things from Japan/Asia to Europe, right up to May 1945.
In return they delivered various articles to Japan, including Firearms, Radio parts, etc

The last shipment of the Type "I" contract was shipped after Italy entered WW II in June 1940, leaving by Submarine from the Arsenal at Venice, bound for Japan, via the straights of Gibralter, round South Africa, across the Indian Ocean, to Japan. On the way they were resupplied from the Italian Base in Massawa (Red Sea), AOI.
After 1941, Italian Submarines were based in Singapore, and after 1943, and the Italian Armistice, several boat crews continued in the Republican service, attached to the Japanese Navy.

There is ample Archival material regarding the Cargo Subs of both the Italian and German Navies, and several Web pages detailing individual Boat Histories.
The last German Boat left Japan in April 1945, and almost got home; It would have arrived After the German Surrender...It was loaded with Rubber, Tin and medical raw materials.

Regards, Doc AV
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Serial number letter prefixes

bayoned
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
743 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 12:01:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a couple of Type I rifles, a prefixed "B" and "J", and have had a prefixed "G".
In my years of looking at a fair number of these rifles, I've noticed a pattern.
Almost all of the Type I rifles I've seen have later serial number prefixes, very few early alphabet letters.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that most of the Type I rifles that came to the US are late letter blocks?

And if this is true, why?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bayoned

car99
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
361 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 02:07:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mine is L prefixed, and have seen very few A to F. Maybe most of those went down in ships' armories.


Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 03:17:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are photos of Japanese naval troops in China with "I"s. I have an 'I' cut to carbine length and converted to 7.62x39 that was one of the 1980s' China imports, Beleive it is D22. There were a number of 'I's mixed with the 38s from China, sory now I did not record the letter prefix. "Old too soon, smart too late."


akb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



279 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 11:56:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think these are under-rated, and some of the best shooters, almost T38 clones in many respects. Anyway, I was tracking these for a while a couple of years ago. These are what I have on record:


Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.

According to Japanese Contract Rifles by White and Allan, with research contributed by Keep and Zielinski:

Series A-F - Gardone (includes initial run, no letter prefix) 70K
Series G-J - FNA-Brescia 40K
Series J-L - Beretta 30 K
Totals assume production at 10K per series.

A : 277 1620 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6746 6882 6963 8860 (11)

B : 743 1811 3956 5518 5887 6042 6815 6978 7388 7501 8241 8751 9553 9567 9930 (15)

C :149 221 378 958 3865 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8262 8276 8472 8818 9425 9729 (18)

D : 33 356 799 932 1619 2215 24xx 3440 36xx 4138 6342 7100 8026 8191 9191 (15)

E : 90 184 325 476 853 1184 1194 2194 3737 4272 4578 4989 5888 5914 6432 6785 8391 8645 8817 9528 9781 (21)

F : 125 307 982 1965 2799 3203 4526 4670 5077 7240 7506 8359 9632 (13)

G : 234 512 841 925 986 1441 1507 2142 2631 2666 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8211 8582 9223 9344 (21)

H : 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 7858 9223 (9)

I : 848 849 1196 1869 2160 2324 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562 (11)

J : 708 887 1956 2433 5549 7563 7729 9944 (8)

K : 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8267 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984 (18)

L : 195 1995 3434 4836 5867 61xx 6262 7137 8532 8708 9192 (11)

As you can see, E's & G's are the most reported.

Anymore out there to add to the list?
This is a pitiful showing for the rifle's purported production, depending who you read, of between 120K to 140K.


Jap7.7
Gunboards Premium Member



156 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 12:31:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Type I rifles are prefixed with letters A to L. Sometimes the buttstocks are cut down one inch to fit the shorter Japanese soldier. Some stocks are a light blond wood. I have the A through L series collected. I think 60 thousand total were made.


Don Blosser
Rest In Peace Don



USA
877 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 8:14:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is kind of a small sample but there don't appear to be any gaps or short groups in any of the 12 prefixes so I think we can assume that all were full. Ratios of between 8:10,000 and 21:10,000 are probably just indicative of the small sample and I'd expect the groups to even out if there were more respondents. On the other hand it may just mean that for whatever reason the H-I-J group all went to someplace outside of the American zone of occupation. Are there any survival figures for T38 and T99 rifles?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Young people are indeed too apt to be captivated by this splendour of stile....it is but poor eloquence which only shews that the orator can talk." Sir Joshua Reynolds, Knt., f.r.a., 'Discourse IV, Dec. 10, 1771.
Don B. in Kansas


ncmtnman
Gunboards Member



USA
61 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 9:38:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have one sn--A1859 the stock has a 14 inch pull that's about one inch longer than the T-99's and T-38's I have. Overall the rifle is in excellent shape with a little discoloration on the stock at the butt blueing is about 90%--no rust on the buttplate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ncdon


akb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



279 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:42:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don, I agree.
The statistics are smooth, and there are no sudden breaks.
At the same time, after chasing every one of these listed anywhere for about four years on gunbroker, auctionarms, and here on this site, less than 200 specimens accounted for is remarkable, given what the experts say were produced. And, I have no argument with them.
So, either there are still tons of them out there, or, there are not!
What a thought.


akb
Gunboards Super Premium Member



279 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 10:51:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jap7.7,
You've seen the serial numbers, they approach 10,000 per series.

You can do the alphabet, there are 12 alphas.

The experts say that there are 10,000 that had no prefixes. I have never witnessed one of those.

Have any of you ever seen one without an alpha prefix?

So, as ignorant as I am of these, I assert the stats tend to demonstrate 120,000 of these weapons.

Now, for less than 200 to be documented over a 4-6 year period at the height of their popularity, plus the gift of the web to track them, these Type I's are really much more rare than anyone would ever believe, & totally, and completely under-rated and/or appreciated.

And yes, survival rate is what we are talking about here. What's in Davy Jone's Locker doesn't count.

Come on folks, let's post new numbers if you've got 'em.


HowdyDoody
Gunboards Super Premium Member



379 Posts
Posted - 07/22/2006 : 11:33:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

akb, I've got F6695. Nicely polished and blued metal, Wood doesn't look like it ever had a coat of anything.

jim


bayoned
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
743 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 01:24:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I started this thread, so here are mine.
B9269 "Long Butt"
J4015 "Short Butt"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bayoned


Rampage19
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
198 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 11:22:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's two more for your list: I8207 and L1661.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Larkin


Mike Rockhill
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
550 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 1:52:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E6820

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm broke, and I blame Imperial Japan



Jap7.7
Gunboards Premium Member



156 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 2:12:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AKB, I do not do research, Its all I can do to get time to get to a gunshow. I like collecting and leave the research to the smart guys. The 60K production I mentioned came from MROJ and Japanese Rifles by Duncan Mc Collum. They both state that 60K rifles were ordered. Keep up the research. I like to help so listed are the Type I rifles in my collection.
A1480
B1535
C8270
D6935 short stock
E6774 short stock
F781 short stock
G1730 short stock
H3068
I6731
J3468 short stock
K6744 short stock
L2860 short stock
All are in excellant condition except for the A series which I will upgrade some day.


eulitathomas
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
110 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 2:19:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello All - Have A3650 and will be picking up another one in two weeks, F prefix and two Japanese characters painted on stock.
Best regards - Tom


Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 4:05:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For whatever it's worth, I have a sling from an "I" that has the name of a Japanee Naval base,, unfortunately there was a misunderstanding and the rifle was sold. Some stayed in Japan and were apparently issued for guard duty??? There was an article in the Miliary Rifle Journal some yers back, both short and long stock variations supposedly have Italian proofs in the butt, under the buttplate. If correct then Itly supplied boh lengths.


Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 4:27:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dick Hobbs, author of "The Carcano" (out-of-print?) collected 'I' information during his research. He had enough serial numbers/rifle data to be able to determine which facilities fabricated which letter blocks of rifles. This information was reprinted in the book Frank Allan and I wrote, "Japanese Contract Rifles." A few copies are still available.


bambach
Gunboards Member



35 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 5:59:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another for the list,

I 93 It is also marked PB which I assume is Pietro Beretta


Type39
Gunboards Member



USA
27 Posts
Posted - 07/23/2006 : 7:35:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the list, mine is K8391.


car99
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
361 Posts
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 01:27:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was going to add mine, but I see it's on the list. The rifle is in very good condition, and I know there are reasons why, but I still think it's amazing so many made it through the war and the Bubbas in such good shape.


Ronin48
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3670 Posts
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 08:34:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is at least one "I" with a mum, on West Coast last I heard. Story is rifle was once ownd by "gentleman' in Rochester, NY. That much is here-say.

"Gentleman" had a mum stamp, that is fact, he offered it to me for $200 and later advertised it in B'ZAI. "Gentleman" sold me a 'sniper stock' for my first 99 sniper that had a heavily sanded stock, this in winter of 82. I was concerned about the color, but he assured me the stock was 'right' and, at the time, he was "Mr Arisaka."

As I gained experience with 'things sniper' I realized the stock had been lightly sanded, the fullers rerouted and, as I original suspected, refinished. So is the mummed "I" authentic? About as authentic as my story of being a belly-gunner on a submarine!


stkman26
Starting Member



1 Posts
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 3:55:36 PM
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Mine is A5536


Franchi
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
368 Posts
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 9:41:14 PM
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Here is a link to a post from Tuco's Japanese Forum from about two years ago on the Type I.
About half way down is a list of serials.

Gary Franchi

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087


rpf2697
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
1074 Posts
Posted - 07/25/2006 : 11:41:57 PM
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Mine is D2144 & it's in excellent condition.


vis35
Gunboards Super Premium Member



540 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 12:21:17 AM
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Mine is B9681, it is in excellent condition too. I do not know what is “long” or “short” but it’s LOP is 14 ¼”. Has the cleaning rod and sling.

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Although my neighbors are all barbarians,
And you, you are a thousand miles away,
There are always two cups on my table.
- Tang Dynasty


Zip Code
Gunboards Member



USA
27 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 12:30:31 AM
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Hello there:
I have L 1583 w/ the correct cleaning rod. Sort of rough bore, but over all it's pretty nice.

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Zip Code


Ogtree
Gunboards Member



USA
76 Posts
Posted - 07/26/2006 : 10:36:35 AM
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Mine is #K8040. It appears to be unissued. The two-piece stock is bare untreated wood. The case hardening on receiver and bolt is mint, including the bolt face. Bolt parts are marked "PB".
Thanks!

Ogtree


bayoned
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
743 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 4:52:57 PM
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One more to add.....
G2420 Long butt.

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bayoned


JoeWest
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
143 Posts
Posted - 07/28/2006 : 9:34:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got A2769


WesinMI
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
245 Posts
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 2:54:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have H6742


Racepres
Gunboards Member



USA
98 Posts
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 11:53:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

G1133, LOP= 14.25 good to VG w/ cleaning rod, no sling. MV


stevenjay1
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
625 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 12:11:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AKB, Here is another...H428
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Correct Model Designation

Ronin48
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 5:38:36 PM
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"Hoping to placate Italian companies after their expulsion from Chinese market, the Fascist government obtained some orders from Japan in 1938. Italy delivered 85 FIAT Br. 20 bombers, a modern MAS of the 500 class renamed H1 (for hayabusa of falcon) which provided the model for the majorty of the IJN MTBs built during the second World War, and even 110,000 rifles of the 91 model for the Imperial Navy (named Type 1-i-shiki shoju) not to mention....."

"..of the 91 model..." refers to the M91 Carcano, the Type designation is printed as "1" and not "I", a typo?

Article is "Italy and the Pacific War," Enrico Cernuschi and Vincent P. O'Hara, in "WORLD WAR II Quarterly" Vol 3/No 1, Issue # XI ( Roy that's 11 for you MS folks.) The publisher is the Pacific War Study Group. [email protected]. $38/year



Edokko
Posted - 07/19/2006 : 7:08:45 PM
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Doss, since the Carcano imports were incorporated as "Jun-seishiki" meaning "Quasi-adoption", they were not allocated the formal adoption year type name. They were instead named the I-shiki, meaning Type I as of "I"taly. Similar quasi-adoption type names are Mo-shiki for Mausers, Chi-shiki for Czeck VZs, Ma-shiki for the Maxim and so forth. Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ketoujin
Posted - 06/04/2006 : 05:13:35 AM
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Hi,
The Japanese word for Italy is Itaria which, written phonetically, is pronounced Ee-Taw-Ree-Aw. So the Type "Eye" could more accurately be said as Type "Ee." The "I" is of course from Itaria. The several Bombardamento Rosatelli Italian bombers given to the IJA air force in Manchuria late in the '30s were known as Type I Bombers as well so the "I" designation didn't just refer to small arms from Italy in Japanese service. Interestingly enough I've seen the Mukden Mauser referred to as the Type Mo (as in Type Mauser or Mozeru in Japanese) in Japanese language reference books - another instance of the Japanese using a single syllable shortening of a word for use as a model designation. Hope this makes sense. Alot of verbage for a small point I know.

Best,
Gunnar
 

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For anyone working on a list I have the wreck of the H21.
It is just a barrel receiver and bolt. No bottom metal, no magazine.
The bore is ruined.
Under the bottom of the receiver behind the recoil lug it is stand AS in a small square.
Below that it is marked 39.

The bolt has a small letter P (not PB)
and then a tiny 23 inside a small diamond.
 

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Japanese type I rifle

Observation on Type"I" serial prefixs........

bayoned Posted - 07/22/2006

I have a couple of Type I rifles, a prefixed "B" and "J", and have had a prefixed "G".
In my years of looking at a fair number of these rifles, I've noticed a pattern.
Almost all of the Type I rifles I've seen have later serial number prefixes, very few early alphabet letters.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that most of the Type I rifles that came to the US are late letter blocks?

And if this is true, why?

bayoned
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car99 Posted - 07/22/2006

Mine is L prefixed, and have seen very few A to F. Maybe most of those went down in ships' armories.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/22/2006

There are photos of Japanese naval troops in China with "I"s. I have an 'I' cut to carbine length and converted to 7.62x39 that was one of the 1980s' China imports, Beleive it is D22. There were a number of 'I's mixed with the 38s from China, sory now I did not record the letter prefix. "Old too soon, smart too late."
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

I think these are under-rated, and some of the best shooters, almost T38 clones in many respects. Anyway, I was tracking these for a while a couple of years ago. These are what I have on record:


Type I Serial numbers observed or reported.

According to Japanese Contract Rifles by White and Allan, with research contributed by Keep and Zielinski:

Series A-F - Gardone (includes initial run, no letter prefix) 70K
Series G-J - FNA-Brescia 40K
Series J-L - Beretta 30 K
Totals assume production at 10K per series.

A : 277 1620 1630 1649 2536 4834 6054 6746 6882 6963 8860 (11)

B : 743 1811 3956 5518 5887 6042 6815 6978 7388 7501 8241 8751 9553 9567 9930 (15)

C :149 221 378 958 3865 40xx 4036 4142 5118 6672 6872 73xx 8262 8276 8472 8818 9425 9729 (18)

D : 33 356 799 932 1619 2215 24xx 3440 36xx 4138 6342 7100 8026 8191 9191 (15)

E : 90 184 325 476 853 1184 1194 2194 3737 4272 4578 4989 5888 5914 6432 6785 8391 8645 8817 9528 9781 (21)

F : 125 307 982 1965 2799 3203 4526 4670 5077 7240 7506 8359 9632 (13)

G : 234 512 841 925 986 1441 1507 2142 2631 2666 4899 5835 5940 6014 6127 6601 7264 8211 8582 9223 9344 (21)

H : 8 496 1699 1850 1852 5030 7399 7858 9223 (9)

I : 848 849 1196 1869 2160 2324 4910 5205 5206 8347 8562 (11)

J : 708 887 1956 2433 5549 7563 7729 9944 (8)

K : 369 371 887 1400 1594 3334 3990 5046 6431 7285 7593 7637 8267 8932 9123 9216 97xx 9984 (18)

L : 195 1995 3434 4836 5867 61xx 6262 7137 8532 8708 9192 (11)

As you can see, E's & G's are the most reported.

Anymore out there to add to the list?
This is a pitiful showing for the rifle's purported production, depending who you read, of between 120K to 140K.
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Jap7.7 Posted - 07/22/2006

The Type I rifles are prefixed with letters A to L. Sometimes the buttstocks are cut down one inch to fit the shorter Japanese soldier. Some stocks are a light blond wood. I have the A through L series collected. I think 60 thousand total were made.

Don Blosser
Rest In Peace Don
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USA Posted - 07/22/2006

It is kind of a small sample but there don't appear to be any gaps or short groups in any of the 12 prefixes so I think we can assume that all were full. Ratios of between 8:10,000 and 21:10,000 are probably just indicative of the small sample and I'd expect the groups to even out if there were more respondents. On the other hand it may just mean that for whatever reason the H-I-J group all went to someplace outside of the American zone of occupation. Are there any survival figures for T38 and T99 rifles?

Don B. in Kansas
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ncmtnman Posted - 07/22/2006

I have one sn--A1859 the stock has a 14 inch pull that's about one inch longer than the T-99's and T-38's I have. Overall the rifle is in excellent shape with a little discoloration on the stock at the butt blueing is about 90%--no rust on the buttplate.

ncdon
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Don, I agree.
The statistics are smooth, and there are no sudden breaks.
At the same time, after chasing every one of these listed anywhere for about four years on gunbroker, auctionarms, and here on this site, less than 200 specimens accounted for is remarkable, given what the experts say were produced. And, I have no argument with them.
So, either there are still tons of them out there, or, there are not!
What a thought.
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akb Posted - 07/22/2006

Jap7.7,
You've seen the serial numbers, they approach 10,000 per series.

You can do the alphabet, there are 12 alphas.

The experts say that there are 10,000 that had no prefixes. I have never witnessed one of those.

Have any of you ever seen one without an alpha prefix?

So, as ignorant as I am of these, I assert the stats tend to demonstrate 120,000 of these weapons.

Now, for less than 200 to be documented over a 4-6 year period at the height of their popularity, plus the gift of the web to track them, these Type I's are really much more rare than anyone would ever believe, & totally, and completely under-rated and/or appreciated.

And yes, survival rate is what we are talking about here. What's in Davy Jone's Locker doesn't count.

Come on folks, let's post new numbers if you've got 'em.
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HowdyDoody Posted - 07/22/2006

akb, I've got F6695. Nicely polished and blued metal, Wood doesn't look like it ever had a coat of anything.

jim
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bayoned Posted - 07/23/2006

Well, I started this thread, so here are mine.
B9269 "Long Butt"
J4015 "Short Butt"

bayoned
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Rampage19 Posted - 07/23/2006

Here's two more for your list: I8207 and L1661.

Dan Larkin
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Mike Rockhill Posted - 07/23/2006

E6820
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Jap7.7 Posted - 07/23/2006

AKB, I do not do research, Its all I can do to get time to get to a gunshow. I like collecting and leave the research to the smart guys. The 60K production I mentioned came from MROJ and Japanese Rifles by Duncan Mc Collum. They both state that 60K rifles were ordered. Keep up the research. I like to help so listed are the Type I rifles in my collection.
A1480
B1535
C8270
D6935 short stock
E6774 short stock
F781 short stock
G1730 short stock
H3068
I6731
J3468 short stock
K6744 short stock
L2860 short stock
All are in excellant condition except for the A series which I will upgrade some day.
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eulitathomas Posted - 07/23/2006

Hello All - Have A3650 and will be picking up another one in two weeks, F prefix and two Japanese characters painted on stock.
Best regards - Tom
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

For whatever it's worth, I have a sling from an "I" that has the name of a Japanee Naval base,, unfortunately there was a misunderstanding and the rifle was sold. Some stayed in Japan and were apparently issued for guard duty??? There was an article in the Miliary Rifle Journal some yers back, both short and long stock variations supposedly have Italian proofs in the butt, under the buttplate. If correct then Italy supplied boh lengths.
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Ronin48 Posted - 07/23/2006

Dick Hobbs, author of "The Carcano" (out-of-print?) collected 'I' information during his research. He had enough serial numbers/rifle data to be able to determine which facilities fabricated which letter blocks of rifles. This information was reprinted in the book Frank Allan and I wrote, "Japanese Contract Rifles." A few copies are still available
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bambach Posted - 07/23/2006

Here is another for the list,

I 93 It is also marked PB which I assume is Pietro Beretta
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Type39 Posted - 07/23/2006
For the list, mine is K8391.
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car99 Posted - 07/24/2006

I was going to add mine, but I see it's on the list. The rifle is in very good condition, and I know there are reasons why, but I still think it's amazing so many made it through the war and the Bubbas in such good shape.
---------------------------------------------

Ronin48 Posted - 07/24/2006

There is at least one "I" with a mum, on West Coast last I heard. Story is rifle was once ownd by "gentleman' in Rochester, NY. That much is here-say.

"Gentleman" had a mum stamp, that is fact, he offered it to me for $200 and later advertised it in B'ZAI. "Gentleman" sold me a 'sniper stock' for my first 99 sniper that had a heavily sanded stock, this in winter of 82. I was concerned about the color, but he assured me the stock was 'right' and, at the time, he was "Mr Arisaka."

As I gained experience with 'things sniper' I realized the stock had been lightly sanded, the fullers rerouted and, as I original suspected, refinished. So is the mummed "I" authentic? About as authentic as my story of being a belly-gunner on a submarine!
----------------------------------------------

stkman26 Posted - 07/24/2006

Mine is A5536
----------------------------------------------

Franchi Posted - 07/24/2006

Here is a link to a post from Tuco's Japanese Forum from about two years ago on the Type I.
About half way down is a list of serials.

Gary Franchi

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28087
----------------------------------------------

rpf2697 Posted - 07/25/2006

Mine is D2144 & it's in excellent condition.
----------------------------------------------

vis35 Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is B9681, it is in excellent condition too. I do not know what is “long” or “short” but it’s LOP is 14 ¼”. Has the cleaning rod and sling.
----------------------------------------------

Zip Code Posted - 07/26/2006

Hello there:
I have L 1583 w/ the correct cleaning rod. Sort of rough bore, but over all it's pretty nice.

Zip Code
----------------------------------------------

Ogtree Posted - 07/26/2006

Mine is #K8040. It appears to be unissued. The two-piece stock is bare untreated wood. The case hardening on receiver and bolt is mint, including the bolt face. Bolt parts are marked "PB".
Thanks!

Ogtree
----------------------------------------------

bayoned Posted - 07/28/2006

One more to add.....
G2420 Long butt.

bayoned
----------------------------------------------

JoeWest Posted - 07/28/2006

I've got A2769
----------------------------------------------

WesinMI Posted - 07/31/2006

I have H6742
----------------------------------------------

Racepres Posted - 07/31/2006

G1133, LOP= 14.25 good to VG w/ cleaning rod, no sling. MV
----------------------------------------------

stevenjay1 Posted - 08/01/2006

AKB, Here is another...H428
----------------
----------------

http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=175127
My rifle is numbered F1902,,,,,,,my ChiCom trainer-carbine is 60620
 

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My Type I Rifle has serial Number J3796 and is in excellent condition.
 
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