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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Japanese Sniper Scope

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Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=121435
Printed on: 10/03/2007


Topic:



Topic author: Yansee
Subject: Japanese Sniper Scope
Posted on: 08/25/2005 6:33:54 PM
Message:
During the Occupation of Japan I picked up a Japanese Army sniper scope and its hard, olive-colored hard carrying case with straps. The scope bears the number 13721. Does anyone know the value of these items? I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks.

Replies:

Reply author: mp44
Replied on: 08/25/2005 6:57:15 PM
Message:
I would say 1200+ if in good shape

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 08/25/2005 7:46:51 PM
Message:
Yansee there at least seven plus scope variation/models. All have different values. Without photos it's a tough call. Even good measurements would help narrow it down. Most scope cases had two sets of straps. One for the waist & other for shoulder. Scope cases also came with a small dust brush inside. Condition of both scope (painted finish, clear optics) & case have alot to do with pricing. Hope this helps

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/25/2005 9:49:12 PM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by mp44

I would say 1200+ if in good shape
Thank you very much. I've had the thing packed away in our attic for fifty-five years without opening the crate. When I opened the thing, the cleaning brush had turned to dust and the rubber eyepiece was crumbled rubber. I had my CO's authorization letter for the rifle and the scope when we disembarked at Ft. Lawton, Wash. in Dec. 1945. They confiscated the rifle and the letter but because the scope was in its own box ignored it. Sadly, the rifle would have been worth much, much more because it came from the Osaka Castle Arsenal when we removed the Jap weapons which were stored there. Thanks again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yansee

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/25/2005 10:51:44 PM
Message:


quote: Originally posted by Jareth

Yansee there at least seven plus scope variation/models. All have different values. Without photos it's a tough call. Even good measurements would help narrow it down. Most scope cases had two sets of straps. One for the waist & other for shoulder. Scope cases also came with a small dust brush inside. Condition of both scope (painted finish, clear optics) & case have alot to do with pricing. Hope this helps
Jareth: Please see my reply to mp44. My scope's case has an adjustable shoulder strap and a belt loop on the case. The loop appears to be one which would be adaptable to the wearer's trousers belt. I have found the following markings on the scope in addition to that which I mentioned in the first post. The new ones are "2.5 X 10 degrees", some Japanese characters, No. 14295, JES followed by two Japanese characters. Dimensions are: lens tube 6 3/4" length, right edge of mounting adaptor to end of lens tube 7 5/8" lenghth, and height of 2 1/2 inches. I hope to get a photo which I can post later. At my age I don't think I can use it so I'll probably put it up on E-Bay or advertise it in the future. Thanks again for your kind assistance.

Reply author: War is Peace
Replied on: 08/25/2005 11:47:27 PM
Message:


quote: Originally posted by Yansee

Originally posted by Jareth.....At my age I don't think I can use it so I'll probably put it up on E-Bay or advertise it in the future. Thanks again for your kind assistance.
Sir:

Thank you for your service. You and yours changed the world for the better. Few can say that.

Good luck when you sell your scope on eBay. I hope you get top dollar. You deserve it. Make sure to include some of your personal history in the auction description and provide the successful bidder a written statement. I may bid on this one myself.


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/26/2005 11:44:03 AM
Message:
Dear Yansee;

I am in the middle of working on the Type 97 sniper rifle chapter of the Type 38 book that is in process. Part of the effort is to map out which Japanese manufacturer produced the groups of scopes. You have given most of the info I need in your postings, but I would like to know the manufacturer also. This can be done by describing the logo that appears on top of the scope. An additional point is that most T-97 scope have a number also on the base that may or may not be preceded by a Japanese character within a circle. If you can give me these two idems of info I can then give you the relative rarity of the scope. You can either call me or post the info here.

Thanks.

Frank


Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/26/2005 12:37:35 PM
Message:
Frank: The number on the base, just above a protruding pin is "13721, and preceded by a circle with a Japanese character within it which resembles an uppercase "T" with the top of the T tilted to the left (/). The scope also came from the Osaka Castle Arsenal in Oct. or Nov. 1945 when the 98th Infantry Division was ordered to confiscate all
weaponry which had been hidden there. I hope this helps you. Thanks for your info.

Reply author: GMK
Replied on: 08/26/2005 3:14:26 PM
Message:
Please send me a mail on the scope

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/26/2005 3:41:19 PM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by GMK

Please send me a mail on the scope

JMK:
As you can see, I am a "freshman" on this board. Can you view my posts to mp44, JARETH, and Francis C. Allan? I have listed specifics on the scope in the aforementioned posts. If you mean a photo, I don't have one at present but intend to get one if I go to E-Bay. Please advise what "send me a mail" means to you. Thanks.

Reply author: skinsfan
Replied on: 08/26/2005 5:33:27 PM
Message:
i'd also like to express my many thanks for your service-i'm sure many members of this board would be interested in your experience's in japan,during and/or after the war-especially as it relates to these weapons-there are a lot of educated collectors on this board(i'm not one of them,educated that is)that can surely benefit from your experience -we would all enjoy the info that you and other vets can pass down-scott

Reply author: tubeaudio
Replied on: 08/27/2005 02:47:53 AM
Message:
listed on the bay yet? last one did bout 16. add a nice letter with remembrances. will be well taken care of then for sure. tom

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/27/2005 1:44:54 PM
Message:
Fellows, your thanks are appreciated but not deserved by this ex-GI. The thanks goes to all those who died for our country and who now rest in foreign cemeteries around the world. My thanks came the day I once again set foot on U.S. soil.

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/27/2005 2:09:11 PM
Message:
Dear Yansee;

Your scope is wonderful and I sure wish we had the rifle that came with it. Looking at the serial number that is on the top of the scope, I believe that the manufacturer is Tokyo Shibaura Electric Co., the forerunner of the modern-day firm of Tosiba, the well-known electronics firm. Note that the first letters in the company name - TOkyo and SHIBAura - form Toshiba. The logo that appears on the top of the scope body should be three Japanese characters appearing vertically, within a circle with three notches on the inside surfaces of the circle. Is this correct? The high and low numbers for this group are currently beleived to be 14288 - 15707.

Shibaura produced the smallest number of Type 97 scopes. They produced only approximately 5.4% of all T-97 telescopic sights.

The number you describe on the integral base of the scope is the 1st Series character within a circle, followed by the serial number of 13721. This is the series number and serial number of the rifle that matches the scope. The scope and rifle were fitted at the factory to each other. This is a Nagoya Army Arsenal rifle. Regrettably no one has reported this rifle serial number during the study currently being conducted as part of the overall Type 38 history project. It is one of my fervent hopes to someday match some of these scopes and rifles. NO MATCHING RIFLES AND SCOPES HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO DATE!!!!!!!

Can you tell us why the rifle was taken from you when you landed. You surely had the right paperwork??????

Thank you very much for sharing this interesting information with us.

Frank




Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 08/27/2005 6:35:56 PM
Message:
Yansee, I would like to contact you privately to get a history of your exploits during the war for my website, www.castle-thunder.com, I'd also be interested in purchasing your scope and case, please contact me when you decide on a selling price. I'd like to do a write up on you, like I've done here, for My grandfather, Tony Sazera
http://www.castle-thunder.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=91
Its all living history, if we don't write it down now, we'll never have it. Thank you so much for posting, and getting on the internet at 29 years of age and counting.........Trey


Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/27/2005 10:17:00 PM
Message:
Originally posted by Francis C. Allan
" Can you tell us why the rifle was taken from you when you landed. You surely had the right paperwork?????? "

Our troopship left from Yokohama and landed at Seattle with 1,100 anxious, homesick guys. We got off the ship and were ordered to a huge terminal for a "show down inspection w/delousing." You fellows who were in service know that this means you drop your bags, clothes, and possessions in one room and proceed to another area in the nude. After a 10 minute body check, you are sprayed with some chemical (DDT for all I know), given a destination card and ordered to return to your clothes, dress, pickup your barracks bag and possessions, for busing to the troop train designated on your card. When I returned, my clothes and bag were intact but the rifle and the CO's authorization envelope attached to it were gone. The scope was in its case and out of sight underneath my field jacket. I protested to the officer in charge and was told "You can file a complaint now and miss your train. It's your call, soldier!" Scared as hell that I would miss the train; easy choice, I took the train and lived happily ever after. I'm certain many, many war trophies ended up in the hands of guys who never left the U.S. Now, that's the story of the rifle and its mate, the scope.



Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/27/2005 11:37:24 PM
Message:
Dear Yansee;

I can see how the rifle disappeared. I sure remember those fun times in the U.S. Army. Looks like nothing changed from the WWII period to the Vietnam era!!

Is the manufacturer's logo as I discribed above?

Frank

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/28/2005 08:48:48 AM
Message:
Dear Frank:

The answer is yes. Also, it would mean my scope was the eighth in the series from "TOSHIBA" mfgr. If you ever found the rifle that matched my scope's number, you will have found a means to trace back to the opportunist who separated the pair. Thanks for your expert assistance.

Yansee

Reply author: tubeaudio
Replied on: 08/30/2005 10:52:03 PM
Message:
my literature doesn't show toshiba manufacturer, altho is old. tried to copy but wont take. tom

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/31/2005 12:01:14 AM
Message:

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9152&stc=1&d=1191697698
Download Attachment:
68.56 KB

Reply author: Yansee
Replied on: 08/31/2005 12:09:26 AM
Message:
Tom: My previous message portrays the manufacturer's ID which appears within a circle above the scope's serial no., i.e. No. 14295. Francis Allan indicates that the forerunner of today's TOSHIBA was Tokyo Shibaura Electric Co. (TOkyo + SHIBAura = TOSHIBA) I believe he has solved the mystery. My drawing is crude but the characters closely resemble the three on the scope. Thanks,

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 08/31/2005 12:18:38 PM
Message:
Dear Yansee;

Thank you for your drawing. Yes, this is definately a Tokyo Shibaura Electric Co. Ltd. scope. The logo dates from around 1910 representing initially the Tokyo Electric Company a forerunner of Shibaura. The three characters translate the to "Matsuda", a common Japanese name of someone associated with the early company. (This is not, repeat NOT, a link to Mazda, the auto maker)

Edokko sent me a very nice photo of a package of light bulbs made by this company. The logo is the same. You can see this phot on the Toshiba history website. I don't have the link handy.

JES stands for Japanese Engineering Standard and the two Japanese Hiragana characters which follow these are NE-JI, whidh translates to screws. This refers to the fact that the screw metric.

Thanks for your help in confirming the maker.

One more issue if you are interested. The lip of the carrying case and/or the straps may have Japanese characters indicative of the date. Are these sufficiently visible to be read? It may increase the sale value of the case if you can make them out. If you draw them like the logo and post them here we can probably date it for you.

Frank

Reply author: tubeaudio
Replied on: 11/25/2005 1:18:47 PM
Message:
please check your pm. thanx, tom

Reply author: Larry Richards
Replied on: 11/29/2005 12:23:12 AM
Message:
I just saw a sniper scope and case go on ebay at $2,036. My question is how much a rifle 99 sniper is worth without the scope.


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