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Silver Bullet member
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Discussion Starter #1
I ran across some interesting information this afternoon while combing some of the auction sites. One listing has a beautiful Luger that is described as being built for the Japanese to test for a military side arm = much like the US did. It is described as a 1906 Japanese Test Luger in 30 cal with a 6" barrel, with kanji marking for TG&E on the side of the receiver. Price at this time is in the $4000 range and estimated to go between 15-20,000 for it!!!!
I have never seen anything about this item and so it really got my attention ===== learn something new every time I look around. I will not list the auction here, as it is ongoing at a prime auction house on the west coast.
About as rare as a 45 cal Luger built for the US. Just some thing more to dream about!
 

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Gold Bullet member
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It's a phony. Also the description is wrong, as this particular piece has no marking connecting it to TGE. The TGE marking is on the other phony Luger piece which is pictured on the Derby/Brown book. They are both make believe creations.
 

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Gold Bullet member
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Well, it looks like it hammered at $10,000. One poor sucker out of 10 grands plus buyer's premium for a fantasy piece !
 

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Silver Bullet member
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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the update on this piece!! It sure pays to post this stuff on the boards, for the help of those that are so much more knowledgeable. I'm sure he will be sorry that he doesn't ask questions before spending that amount of cash + premium (I think 15%!) WOW
 

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Anyone that spends large amounts of $$$ on small amounts of research, deserves the outcome.
 

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Silver Bullet member
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Maybe the buyer will be lucky enough to find another buyer just like himself when he gets around to selling it. He may never know he spent $9,950 too much on the thing.....:eek:

At the least. he better hope his wife(if he's married) doesn't find out the real value of the thing!!
 

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Does anyone worry that continued auctions like this will "create" provenance??? There are some auction houses I avoid like the plague at this point because they seem to be nothing more than fraud shops...
 

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Indeed, it will create provenance to some level, but since most people know (at least should know) that auction houses are out to make a buck and more, so whatever described and sold at auctions does not necessary mean it's authentic. I read the "Billionaire's Vinegar" the other day (thanks Veloce), and the book is a real hoot about fraudulent "made-up" vintage and historic wines being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars at Christies and the like ! Same thing here, so auction results are really not something to count on for provenence. A purchaser "has" to do his own research even when buying from a highly reputable auction house.
The real problem in this case is that the Derby/Brown book describes a known and photographed TGE test Luger as authentic (which it's not) and that kind of gives provenance (if viewed incorrectly) to this IJN test Luger that just sold on Greg Martin Auction, due to the similarities in the markings. But, actually, from my view point the sheer fact of the similar markings in itself is one of the proofs that both Lugers are nothing but fake make-up fantasy pieces. It's unfortunate that a book as greatly researched and influential as the Derby/Brown bible just had to "jump the gun" (all pun intended) on authenticating the fake TGE marked Luger before making more in depth research into it.
 

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At least Martin included the caveat in his description: "Opinions do vary on the authenticity of this seldom seen firearm" so all bidders were forewarned.
 

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Hey, if it's in a book, it's got to be legit ;)
 

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At least Martin included the caveat in his description: "Opinions do vary on the authenticity of this seldom seen firearm" so all bidders were forewarned.
Greg Martin usually does a better job than Rock Island... Greg Martin usually doesn't include enough information on most actual Japanese firearms to make an informed bid, though...
 

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It wouldn't surprise me to see this Luger come up for auction again in the near future; probably Rock Island.


IMO, provenance has to be clear irrefutable evidence as to the origin of this pistol. For example, factory or arsenal records that indicate this Luger (by serial #) was obtained for testing purposes in an agreement between the German Navy and IJN.

- tge
 

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Silver Bullet member
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Really nice luger; with really strange markings. I have to go with the spurious conclusion, take a $1200 luger and turn it into a $12000 fake is pretty lucrative.
 

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Anyone want to buy a 22 caliber Polish Target Luger in nickel with matching shoulder stock? Once owned buy Hitlers wife Ava?
 

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Takehito I'm sure you noticed navy anchor mark is same as so called navy marked Baby nambu which was questionible too.
 

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... take a $1200 luger and turn it into a $12000 fake is pretty lucrative.
This Luger has changed owners at least twice before this auction sale. It would be nice to know the price appreciation as it changed hands over time, which I am trying to find out.

- tge
 

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Takehito I'm sure you noticed navy anchor mark is same as so called navy marked Baby nambu which was questionible too.
Jareth, yes I am very much aware of that, and it would be interesting to note that the exact same said Baby also changed hands twice at the Las Vegas show where the Navy Luger was hammered at. Intersting coincidence.
 

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Kryptonite member
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There are many rifles and pistols that were one-of-a-kind and records were destroyed during the bombing of the Nagoya arsenal in 45. Two examples are the experimental Type 99 sniper carbine carried on a midget sub to shoot seagulls off the parascope and the Type 4 (modified T-2) sniper carbine issued to "little people" paratroopers.

I know these are authentic because I was there when they were fabricated by Mssrs. Langley and Boone! And if you can't trust Garfield's Dad and Riceone who can you trust?
 
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