[45Guy]

Thanks to a very generous board member I have finally gotten a hard copy of TM 30-480. In it, there is mention of FN manufactured BARs in 7.7 being captured in the Phillipines. According to the text at least one specimen was captured and examined. Does anyone have any more information in regard to these, or know of a museum that has an example in their collection?

 

[DocAV]

The Japanese used Captured Chinese (FN made) BARs both in China and possibly in the Phillipines. These were in 7,9mm, NOT 7,7mm; The Type 99 7,7 Rimless round was probably not in General field issue in the Pearl Harbour period of the war...All photos of Japanese Invasion troops in Malaya-Singapore, the Phillipines, and New Guinea in early 1942 show the 6,5 T38 rifle predominating.
It is known that the IJN also used Chinese Type 26 (ZB) machine rifles in the Phillipines campaign.

Quantities of 7,7 calibre rifles and LMGs only became evident in the Pacific TO in late 1942. The 7,9 round used by the Japanese is easily mistaken for the 7,7 at simple inspection ( NO headstamp, but staked primer crimp, not circular). I have found samples of Japanese 7,9 ammo mixed in with 7,7 T99, and sold as such ( from New Guiniea Pickups, usually at airfields, where 7,9 was used in aircraft MGs ( ?Type 98?).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

 

[45Guy]

That makes sense.

 

[DocAV]

Please note, NO photo of the "BAR", but the mention of FN 1932 makes it a prime candidate for an FN Model 30 for China.

Again, the Field "Report" probably confused the calibre of 7,9 with 7,7. When was this report prepared ( The Final TM? 1942-43?)

Of course, it would have been easy enough to convert the FN M1930BAR to 7,7 T99 cartridge by a simple Barrel change...But there is no evidence that that was every done, either in China or by Japan at home.

I have never tried to fire Japanese 7,7 in a 7,9 chambered weapon, but given the similarity of the cartridge cases, it may just be Possible...the bullets would be wildly inaccurate, but then most LMGs are when on Burst fire.

But all in all, I would put it down to Field Ordnance Officer Mistake as to calibre....and nobody up the line checked it out.

Regards, Doc AV

 

[45Guy]

Now that makes perfect sense, at least if I remember correctly that the Mle 30 and D had shorter barrels than the 1918.

 

[arisakadogs]

The Japanese used Captured Chinese (FN made) BARs both in China and possibly in the Phillipines. These were in 7,9mm, NOT 7,7mm; The Type 99 7,7 Rimless round was probably not in General field issue in the Pearl Harbour period of the war...All photos of Japanese Invasion troops in Malaya-Singapore, the Phillipines, and New Guinea in early 1942 show the 6,5 T38 rifle predominating.
It is known that the IJN also used Chinese Type 26 (ZB) machine rifles in the Phillipines campaign.

Quantities of 7,7 calibre rifles and LMGs only became evident in the Pacific TO in late 1942. The 7,9 round used by the Japanese is easily mistaken for the 7,7 at simple inspection ( NO headstamp, but staked primer crimp, not circular). I have found samples of Japanese 7,9 ammo mixed in with 7,7 T99, and sold as such ( from New Guiniea Pickups, usually at airfields, where 7,9 was used in aircraft MGs ( ?Type 98?).

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

Doc, I have these 7.9 rimless Japanese made rounds with the circular crimp. The box is missing the top, unfortunately, but it's marked Type 98 ammunition

 

[Ronin48]

45guy, Any other manuals that you are looking for? I'm getting rid of most of my reference material and would rather see it go to someone who reads it and learns than someone that puts it away just to have it.

 

[45Guy]

Being a former engineer, note photo of tap dancing on a M-21 AT mine, any engineering pubs would be greatly appreciated.