Gunboards Forums banner

1 - 4 of 4 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
redimacchia
Italy
Posted - 12/19/2004 : 11:24:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only italian sniper that the italian collectors know is a variatin of the long rifle Mod.1891 produced in 6000-7000 exemples. The scope it was produced in a factory of Milan.
Also during the II°WW the italian army made trials with the Carcano Mod.1941 but I don't know if it was approved, produced and used during the war.

* * *

Lanceri Novara 5
Italy
Posted - 04/06/2006 : 4:04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historically very few Carcano was scope mounted, during WW1 italian sniper used checked '91 gun, of great accuracy marked with two riffles crossed.
Sometimes they used french scope or Filotecnica scope. Some example are show in Castel Sant'Angelo Museum. Later Filotecnica was consociated with Salmoiraghi and produced a scope mounted on a 91/38, only for experimental use. Look at this site: http://www.maccioni.net/exordinanza/carcanosniper.htm
Sniping was not very diffuse in Italian Army.
Of course i think many scope may be mounted on a Carcano, of course only for shooting pratice.
Best regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jacklancer



DMala
Posted - 04/06/2006 : 11:22:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grazie Lanceri! Is there a date anywhere that can be seen?
Interesting but, isn't it mounted too rearward to be of practical use?



aeo
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 1:48:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow! Thank you for the web link. That scope looks cool! I would be very hesitant to shoot something like that because I would fully expect to loose an eye after the first shot.... ;)
Thanks again. Great link!
Anton



alb87
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 05:30:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a vintage photo representing an Italian sniper during WW1. The rifle is an extremely rare, Carcano m91 sniper version. This particular rifle was assembled in extremely limited quantity during the WW1 using italian made and french aquired scope. During the years I saw a few of these rifles but all of them were reproduction for the collector market. The scope mounts were made by some gunsmith's ability and imagination, since original examples are virtually non existent. The only original I saw was in another vintage photo where the rifle was pictured but it lacked the scope. The scope bases were made very crudely and how them worked or if them worked at all is anyone guess...

I don't know if these rifles were marked with the crossed rifles marking but I don't think so. The crossed rifles marking had been misunderstood very often. It doesn't refere to the rifle accuracy but is only an acceptance marking. During the production a few rifles from a lot of many more were inspected to verify if the lot respect the mil spec, and if everything was right those rifled were marked in that way. The m91 with the crossed rifles marking in my collection is in excellent condition and it is nothing better than the other I own.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200711153021_italian sniper.jpg
Download Attachment:
66.44 KB



DMala
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 10:16:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alb87, thanks for the picture. Where did you read the information about the intepretation of the crosssed rifle stamp that you mention? Thanks



alb87
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 02:59:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DMala,I had this information from the conversation I usually have with my collector friends. A friend of mine that is also a collector stated that 1 out of every 100 Carcano produced was marked with the Crossed rifle marking ( I don't know were he find this information), but I think the rifles marked in such way were many more since it is not so uncommon to find one of them.
However, the definitive proof the Carcanos marked with crossed rifle marking were not selected weapons for accuracy is that I found this particular marking stamped on every Carcano model produced, also cavalry carbine, 38s and TS, and such rifles weren't surely intended for target or sniping work.



Aethelbert
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 5:09:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lanceri Novara 5
Look at this site: http://www.maccioni.net/exordinanza/carcanosniper.htm
Sniping was not very diffuse in Italian Army.
Of course i think many scope may be mounted on a Carcano, of course only for shooting pratice.
Hmm. Tried that site but got the error message "Site Cannot Be Found".



DMala
Posted - 01/16/2007 : 1:45:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by alb87

However, the definitive prove the Carcanos marked with crossed rifle marking were not selected weapons for accuracy is that I found this particular marking stamped on every Carcano model produced, also cavalry carbine, 38s and TS, and such rifles weren't surely intended for target or sniping work.

Well, yes and no, they could still have met a minimum accuracy standard adequate for the "tiratore scelto" (sharpshooter) role. Even a M91 or M41 is not a sniper rifle. Thanks in any case for sharing this opinion.



Madsen
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 3:27:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallo,
The link to Marco's site is again active.
http://www.maccioni.net/exordinanza/carcanosniper.htm

The rifle was for sale in an italian gunshop some months ago.
Pictures are not top level as they were taken with a mobile phone.
Madsen



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 7:59:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alb,
Thank you very much for posting the vintage pic!!! VERY interesting!

Is the pic in the link of a sporting scope mounted on a Carcano? It doesn't have an 'old' look to it, SW



Dogwalker
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 05:40:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the intrusion. It's only to post a picture of a (probably) original WWI scoped Carcano from www.berettaweb.com/Militari/Beretta_1891.htm





alb87
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:21:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NebrHogger, the vintage photo that I posted was taken from an old italian gun magazine.



alb87
Italy
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:28:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some pics of a Carcano m91 with scope mounts...taken from the same magazine.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200736122732_1.jpg
Download Attachment:
42.26 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200736122748_2.jpg
Download Attachment:
126.17 KB



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 5:15:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting scope mounts! The rifle seems to have been through some hard times, too. Thanks again!! SW



Arditi
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 8:44:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting information!



alb87
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 06:18:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more information look:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=164598

It is another topic about italian snipers on the "Sniper rifle forum".



redimacchia
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 2:38:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by alb87
Here is a vintage photo representing an italian sniper during WW1.The rifle is an extremely rare,Carcano m91 sniper version. This particular rifle was assembled in extremely limited quantity during the WW1 using italian made and french aquired scope.During the years I saw a few of these rifles but all of them were reproduction for the collector market. The scope mounts were made by some gunsmith's ability and imagination,since original examples are virtually non existent.The only original I saw was in another vintage photo where the rifle was pictured but it lacked the scope.The scope bases were made very crudely and how them worked or if them worked at all is anyone guess...
I don't know if these rifles were marked with the crossed rifles marking but I don't think so.The crossed rifles marking had been misunderstood very often. It don't refere to the rifle accuracy but is only an acceptance marking.During the production a few rifles from a lot of many more were inspected to verify if the lot respect the mil spec, and if everything was right those rifled were marked in that way.The m91 with the crossed rifles marking in my collection is in excellent condition and it is nothing better than the other I own.
alb87 i don't know if you know but in the number of January 2007 of TAC ARMI there is an interesting article of Massimiliano Locci abaut italian Carcanos Sniper. The rifles present on it arrived from the old Gardone Arsenal closed during the '80s.



alb87
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 2:59:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
redimacchia, thanks for your information. Unfortunately I missed the number of January of TAC ARMI...I'll find it, I'm curious to see that article.



DMala
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 1:23:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TAC ARMI article shows two scoped M91s. The WWI sample has a French-made scope on a mount offset to the left. The scope mount has no recoil spring. As far as I know all the WWI M91 sniper rifles had an offset mount.

The other scoped M91 in the article, like the one depicted above by Dogwalker, is a prototype made on a Terni M91 dated 1934. It has a mount centered above the action, with a German-made 4.5x scope equipped with a recoil spring. Interestingly the magazine floor was modified to allow the lowering of the elevator group to insert a clip upward from the bottom.



redimacchia
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 06:48:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I made amistake The experimetal rifle is the only that came from the Old Arsenal of Gardone. In the WWI there are the German proof markings dated 1972.



alb87
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 08:16:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
here are some pics of a copy of the original manual for the Carcano with telescopic sight published in 1916. I'm going to translate it in english. I'll post the translation as soon as possible...

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200731181521_manuale1.jpg
Download Attachment:
39.61 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200731181535_manuale2.jpg
Download Attachment:
89.03 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200731181548_manuale3.jpg
Download Attachment:
94.04 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/20073118163_manuale4.jpg
Download Attachment:
65.03 KB



Arditi
Posted - 03/19/2007 : 7:36:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very nice! I'd like to get a copy of that please sir!
Thanks for sharing, Arditi


.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Another sniper rifle thread

Here is another thread in excerpt, from the Sniperr Rifle Forum:

* * *

Simon
United Kingdom
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 10:58:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's some of the very limited info i have regarding the Italian sniping effort.

Cheers,
Simon.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/simon/2007111105653_WWI Italian Sniper.jpg
Download Attachment:
42.96 KB

Italian Sniper in the Trenches

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/simon/2007111105722_WWI Set up.jpg
Download Attachment:
109.24 KB

WWI Sniper set up, these pics are from an unknown Italian published book.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/simon/2007111105740_WWI Scope and Mount.jpg
Download Attachment:
24.35 KB

Original Scope and Mount from WWI set up.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/simon/2007111105758_Exp WWII.jpg
Download Attachment:
143.91 KB

Experimental set up considered but never implemented during WWII, from the same book mentioned above.



greggdw
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 4:20:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
simon,
do you have any more photos of the scope on the white fabric.
it has a lot of features that are french.



Simon
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 03:28:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg,

Sorry no I don't, I'll try and get some for you. The scopes were sourced via France and to all intents and purposes look to be an A.P.X. but with external adjustment instead of the standard elevation drum and prism windage.



alb87
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 05:14:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
very intresting Simon; can you tell me the name of the book mentioned above??? As soon as possible I will post some pics of a Carcano with scope mounts....from an old magazine........If I find it...thanks



Simon
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 05:41:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will find out the name for you and post it here.



tonino7
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 07:21:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alb87 and Simon , here you have the book with the pictured Carcanos :

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/tonino7/200711271354_pagani.jpg
Download Attachment:
103.8 KB

It was published in 1991 . If somebody is interessed to the second edition ( in italian and english too !)here you have the link to the right page in an italian online bookshop :

http://www.tuttostoria.it/specifiche.asp?ID=327



alb87
Posted - 01/12/2007 : 08:57:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks tonino7..I know tuttostoria very well...I usually buy books from it.Grazie 1000!!!!!!!



alb87
Posted - 01/15/2007 : 02:58:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some pics of a Carcano m91 with scope mounts...

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200711525737_1.jpg
Download Attachment:
42.27 KB

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/alb87/200711525752_2.jpg
Download Attachment:
126.18 KB


.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,814 Posts
I'm replying to this old thread as I'm trying to find a decent photo of a Modello 1891 sniper rifle for an article I'm preparing.

Mille grazie!
 
1 - 4 of 4 Posts
Top