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Discussion Starter #1
DocAV
Posted - 04/13/2004 : 7:07:41 PM
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Italian semi-auto rifles:
several models, Beretta M31, almost as long as the original M91;
Terni models, very similar
Scotti Model X (1932) about the same length as the M41 rifle;
ArmaGuerra M37 and M39 selfloaders, ( 6,5 and 7,35mm ); about the same size as the M38 short rifle
Breda PG ( 6,5 and 7x57) Same size as M38FC;

1942 experimental in 8x59RB Breda, same as M41 in length.

All the above are as rare as Rocking Horse apples, although some Beretta M31 slipped into the USA mistaken for M91 Long rifles in the 1970s (Same magazine, bayonet bands and similar woodwork.
Most of the Breda PG guns are full-auto, and thus a No-No.

Regards, Doc AV
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Beretta M 1918/30 Carbine

Ronin48
Posted - 03/26/2004 : 06:59:17 AM
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Recon Ordnance Co (920/922-1515) has an ad in 4/9/04 Gun List, p. 137 that notes they imported 50 carbines. Grade 1 "Arsenal refinished to like new" is $1750, Grade II "Same as above but missing b'net and may have wood repairs" $1400.

If you order either grade, why not order two, send me one and I'll send you $20/month until my bill is paid!



Atlpete
Posted - 03/26/2004 : 6:18:53 PM
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Are these ex-policia from Argentina? I remember seeing an ad for them about two or three monthes ago, an interesting and apparently rare carbine? where they ever issued to Italian forces or authorities?



Antonio
Posted - 03/27/2004 : 12:31:03 AM
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Just talked to them the other day. They have about ten of the Grade 1 carbines left. They are from Argentina. They are still working out a deal with the supplier for spare parts and mags. I hope I can move some other stuff so I can get one.



Antonio
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 11:05:36 PM
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Well, I broke down and ordered one yesterday. They are running low and will cancel the ads in Shotgun news and Gunlist as they are selling out fast. I couldn't resist. Still trying to move some less important stuff to pay for it. Thank God for plastic. Will keep you posted when it gets here.


raul
Posted - 04/14/2004 : 8:51:06 PM
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This little carbines were police issue ,the are marked "Policia de la Capital", that around 1947 had the name changed to "Policia Federal"".
They were extensively used, but the wear was more that of the guns used for standing guard than shooting.Mine was not refinished and still keeps parts with the original blue, it tends to shoot a little high at 25 meters.The magazines are a beauty, one has a small capacity, 10 rounds, and a larger with I dont remember well, but at least 25 rounds.I have many friends who have this guns and some are a little worn so sometimes the guns fire a burst of three or four rounds.About the price its funny, but in Argentina this guns go for 350, so you could pay an airline ticket and stay three days at a three star hotel, have the best steaks in the world and return to the US with the gun and some change in your pockets, no joke!!



Antonio
Posted - 04/15/2004 : 10:53:48 PM
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By the way I am still waiting for my Carbine to arrive. I hope tomorrow. Are Mags and parts still available in Argentina??



raul
Posted - 04/16/2004 : 11:08:50 AM
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Parts are unavailable and mags only when we have those few lucky finds we collectors experience every now and then. The gun has lost value in Argentina because our "protectors" gave a decree stating that all the purchases compromising a long gun with an external mag from 9mm on need a special decree authorizing the purchaser for that specific gun,this is taking months, it costs money in official forms and many inquiries were turned down without an explanation.BTW, are these guns imported to the US with the spike bayonet still on???



Antonio
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 12:14:41 AM
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The Higher grade guns come with the bayonet. The lower grade guns have some cracks in the wood and no bayonets. Mine still hasn't arrived yet. Perhaps tomorrow.



raul
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 08:58:49 AM
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If some of the guns have cracks in their stocks it denotes they have seen a lot of abuse, be careful with them, because I've said before
this guns tend to shoot bursts if they were not properly maintained.



2520wcf
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 10:58:07 AM
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Man, you guys are making me look up my frequent flyer miles balance. I've always wanted to go all the way to Buenos Aires and Montevideo; never got south of Panama. Yet.

Interesting that the 18/30 semiauto carbine tends to turn itself back into a 1918 submachine gun as it "ages." A sort of mechanical "second childhood"?

Did the Argentine cops call this gun "La Syringa" like the Italian cops did? (Don't know if the words for "syringe" are the same in both languages.).
Mike Armstrong email [email protected]



Story
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 11:29:30 AM
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Has anyone checked to see if the Beretta 38 magazines fit these yet?



Antonio
Posted - 04/19/2004 : 12:55:21 PM
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I was told by Recon that the 38A mags don't fit. Too bad as I have a 38A and have stocked up on mags. If my gun ever gets here I will see if I can make them fit. Recon also said that they are working a deal for spare parts and mags but have not yet come to terms with the Argentine Officals yet. Hopeing for UPS to ring my bell today.



Antonio
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 10:39:53 AM
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My little friend got here last night. I am very pleased so far. The metal has all been refinished with a dull blue. Nothing like my 38A beretta that has the original deep blue. The wood is in real nice shape with no dings and a great finish. The bore is also in great shape. The MAg is a work of art. It was not refinished and is beautiful. It is a double stack, single feed type with an open front to see the ammo. 38A mags will definitely no work. It is totally machined and must have cost a fortune to make. I am going to work now and the gun is going with me. I have an indoor range at the store there and I will give you a range report when I get home tonight.



2520wcf
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 11:16:58 AM
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I found an interesting little tidbit in an article I'd copied off the internet site www.sightm1911.com. The article is about the Ballester-Molina, and starts with the history of the Argentine firm HAFDASA, which was originally an automotive mfr. or assembler (Hispano Argentina Fabrica de Automoviles, SA. (Spanish-Argentine Auto Factory, Inc.). According to the article (which was originally copied from the--I think--extinct Cruffler.com site):

"HAFDASA won a contract from with the Direccion General de Materiel del Ejercito(DGME) or General Directorate for Army Materiel, to supply the Argentine military with trucks, buses, and engines. The DGME later commissioned HAFDASA to investigate the potential manufacture of small arms.

In 1936, in response to the DGME request, HAFDASA began to design and manufacture small arms. There was nothing revolutionary about HAFDASA's work. The factory established a pattern of adapting existing designs to satisfy the requirements of the Argentine military and police forces using indigenous materials within HAFDASA's production capabilities. To this end, in 1936, HAFDASA unveiled a semiautomatic carbine based on the Beretta M1918/30 in calibers 9x19 and .45ACP."

The article goes on to describe the commissioning of the Ballester-Rigaud pistols and so on. It makes it clear that the B-R and B-M pistols are close design cousins of the Star pistols, as I have long believed (it implies that the Star B 9mm is the "parent", but shouldn't it be the Star P .45?) but makes no further mention of the HAFDASA carbines.

ANYBODY ever seen one of these puppies, especially in .45 ACP? Are some of them lurking in the present surplus shipment that is the subject of this thread?



Antonio
Posted - 04/20/2004 : 10:17:56 PM
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Here is a picture of me and the new Beretta 1918/30. The groug was shot at 15yds. It shoots a bit high but I can live with that. I field stripped is and it looks good in the inside. Some of the inner parts numbers are not matching and there is some pitting under the woodline. It is marked on the left side of the Receiver "Policia De La Provincia De Buenos Aries" On the top of the Receiver is marked "Pietro Beretta -Gardone Valle Trompia-Italia cal 9" and at the back of the receiver is marked "Brevetto 1918-1930" Then the serial Number 4XX Overall I am very pleased. The gun Shot well and I called Recon and had a nice talk with them. They have 4 Grade 1 Carbines left. He does have 3 spare mags but they are $300.00 Each. I think I can do without one right now. Another thing is they add 3% if you use a credit card. So I paid and additional $67.00. Oh Well It's only money Right. The Bayonet looks just like a shortened Carcano Cav and the lockup is the number 8 variation listed in Dick Hobbs book.



raul
Posted - 04/26/2004 : 6:43:20 PM
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Antonio, congrats on your new Beretta,I see that not only mine shoots alittle bit high.I also see that your belonged to the police of the province and not to the capital, I never saw one with that inscription.
I am amazed by the price of the mags,if someone here has a spare piece
I'll let you know.



Antonio
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 11:22:29 PM
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Thanks Raul. I hope to be back in Argentina next year for another Dove shoot. We will be in Cordoba and then back to Buenos Aires. I look forward to returning. I like to visit the local gun shops in hope that I will get lucky. Thank you for keeping me in mind for a spare mag.



raul
Argentina
1830 Posts
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 08:41:03 AM
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Antonio,if you plan to come to Argentina call me and I can guide you through the many spots that deal with our hobby.My personal email
is : [email protected]
Regards-Raul Braudo
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Scotti X

collectaholic
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 02:31:44 AM
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Any one there have a Scotti x? There is one in gunbroker for $3500. Gave some thought to upgrading mine. But price seems a bit high. Just wondering how many of the original 250 are still out there?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Did Italy make a semi-auto rifle in WW 2 ?

l.d.bruce66
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 09:40:51 AM
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Did the Italians make a semi auto in ww2? If they did how rare are they?



SteveMcP
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 12:54:25 AM
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The Italian firm of Breda introduced the gas-operated 6.5mm PG rifle in the mid-1930's, but wasn't able to sell it to the Italian Army. They did, however, manage to sell some examples in 7x57 to Costa Rica. The PG fired either semi-auto, or 4-shot bursts, from a 20-round magazine.

Additionally, the Italian Glisenti firm introduced a 6.5mm selective-fire rifle designed by an Italian officer, Captain Cei-Rigotti, in 1900. It used removable magazines of up to 50-round capacity, but achieved no sales, and was eventually discontinued.



DocAV
Posted - 02/20/2005 : 02:00:39 AM
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Apart from the Cei-Rigotti M1900 (Several versions, Army and Navy, short and Long) The 1930s saw several Rifles of S?A mode developed in Italy. The aforementioned Breda PG (Presa-Gaz, or gas-operated), was produced in 7x57 for Costa Rica , with selective fire (there are a couple on NFA papers in the States) and 6,5 Carcarno in SA only.They were not accepted by the Italian Army , but ended up in service in 1943-44 ( after the German Occupation)

Beretta developed a Long Rifle, using the 6-cartridge clip, which was much like the Long M91 in layout ( actually slightly Longer) called the M31; it was not a success either. Some of these ended up in combat in Mainland Italy, during 43-45, and due to their "M91-ish" appearance, often escaped detection in Milsurp sales, and ended up in USA; there are reports of at least 10 around the USA in the last 20 years. very desireable piece.

Scotti Model "X" (1932); a combination of the design of Mannlicher's
Straight-pull Bolt (M95) with a tappet gas system ( Cei-Rigotti) and standard Carcano feed system and Stock parts. Gas system was in the 6 o'clock position, and "Tapped " the bolt carrier tube open, to spiral the bolt head out of engagement; a coil return spring in an Aft tube, recharged the bolt into battery. As a result, the magazine was well forward of the trigger,but still of the 6 shot Carcano charger type. Rifle was configured as a "Short Rifle" ( in between a TS and a Long M91). Some use in Ethiopia (Combat Field trials) and of course, late WW II. Rarely seen today outside of very speciallized collections.

Armaguerra Cremona also developed a SA Rifle in the late 1930s, in 7,35mm (M38 cartridge) .Here, again, there was no uptake by the hidebound Italian general staff, and the rifle languished. Cremona went on to make M41 Bolt rifles, especially after its German occupation in 43; Given the calibre and design, it would, if adopted on a grand scale , have been the ideal "assault rifle "of its day (medium cartridge, hi-cap mag, handy length).

Beretta/ Italian Army developed Auto Rifle in 8x59 Breda MG cartridge.
Prototype developed 1943-44, existing examples in Beretta Museum in Gardone VT.

There you have it. The reticence in adoption of an Auto Rifle was due to the mindset of the WW I generals who still abounded in the 1930s in the Italian Army; only after the Abyssinian adventure did the need for a " full auto" type handy weapon come to the fore, and this was amply met by the Beretta MAB38A, in its super 9mm cartridge;

Whilst some Italian (Republican) Troops in 1944-5 did get hold of German G41 and MP44 type auto rifles, The Italian Army, by and large, was stuck with Bolt rifles till the end of WW II and beyond, to the early 1950s, when Beretta and Breda started manufacturing the M1 Garand for both Italian and Export use.



DMala
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 11:37:41 AM
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Don't you guys however think that the Beretta M38 with its rather "hot" 9mm cartridge, and good design and construction, in practical terms covered to a good extent what an assault rifle would have done? My point is that, considering the limited resources available, maybe it would not have made much sense for Italy to develop a semi-auto rifle in WWII.



SteveMcP
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 10:14:14 PM
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If you think about some of the areas where Italy fought in WW2 (North African deserts, the Alps, the mountains of Greece), you see that the long-range capabilities of a true rifle cartridge are crucial, and no short, low-sectional-density pistol bullet is going to suffice over distances that may well range out to hundreds of yards, no matter how "hot" it's loaded.



DocAV
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 03:08:24 AM
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The question of Long range vs Close range was first seen by the Italians in Abyssinia, 1935-36; it was from the experiences of too much range and penetration by the long and slow 6,5 projectile that convinced the Artillery service (the Italian "ordnance") to develop the 7,35 cartridge and corresponding M38 Fucile Corto with fixed sights.

Much of the Infantry in both North Africa and Russia were armed with M91/38 (the 6,5mm version...which the reversion in calibre was a simple question of "available ammunition capacity and unity in supply") Units traditionally issued the ling rifles (Alpini, etc) retained their Long range guns, or were supplemented with the M41 Rifle; nits issued the TS and CCs kept thiers, and had M91/38 simplified TS & CCs as well.

The question of the MAB38A (Beretta SMG) and its "super 9mm" cartridge is a difficult one to explain. Initially designed as a Semi-Auto for the Italian African Colonial Police (M1935), The sights were (hopefully) set out to 1,000 metres or so). beretta then developed this design into the M38A ( Moschetto Automatico Beretta). Initial issues were to Motorcycle riders,Paratroopers and Naval Assault teams ( and you thought the "Seals" were a US invention....)

They even developed multi-function magazine carrying vests for MAB users in these specialist forces. The utility of such a well built, solid SMG (originally all milled steel construction till about 1942, then rolled and pressed steel was used) was immediately seen, and fully utilised, not only by the Italians, but also by Germany (44-45) and Romania(44-45). Even US troops in Sicily and Southern Italy eagerly used the MAB38, for its longer range and more accurate fire than either the Thompson or the M3.
Even so, the MAB was only ever a "Submachine Gun" with a souped up Pistol cartridge.



03man
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 12:02:29 AM
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DocAV,
please define the MAB38 for those of us who are numerically challenged. Is this 9mmP or some other calibre?



g-43
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 10:18:43 PM
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I need help fast I have found two itilian 6.5 semi auto rifles along with several other weapons from a vets estate one I belive to be a scotty x any one know the value or any place I can see pictures to identify. The two rifles are different both use 6 rd striper both look to be 6.5 both are itilian they wont last long any info would be appreciated.!
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Terry Tweed



GJD
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 01:27:13 AM
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How much are they going for?



g-43
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 10:02:37 AM
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The scotti x is 1529.00 the other has no price do you know what they are worth?
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Terry Tweed



g-43
Posted - 11/04/2005 : 12:21:58 AM
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Well I guess nobody knows thanks anyway.
I will be picking up the first one and will post pictures so if any one else finds one they will have a picture to go by, when they put a price on the other model I will buy it and post those pictures.
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Terry Tweed



francesco
Italy
Posted - 11/04/2005 : 09:08:23 AM
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Originally posted by 03man
please define the MAB38 for those of us who are numerically challenged. Is this 9mmP or some other calibre?
MAB was chambered in 9x19 or 9 parabellum caliber, but its ammos were particular version called "9 mm M38", developed by Fiocchi firm.
I remember that this ammunition fired in my old 92/SB travelled at circa 400 m/s!!
Francesco



g-43
Posted - 11/04/2005 : 8:14:15 PM
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Just had A e-mail That a person though I was pulling your legs about the 6.5 semi itilians {I am not }I will be glad to talk to anyone that wants to send me there phone number e-mail me please help me find some pictues , info on these rifles the post that the info is good but I would like to get some photos so that I can identify the secound one they have so that they will sell it also. I am picking up the first one next week and will photograph.
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Terry Tweed



g-43
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 10:43:49 AM
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I have the 6.5 semi auto itilian ww2 rifles photos I took of both the one I bought and the one that they still have can anyone tell me how to post photos here i am computer dum.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
1925 rifle photos

g-43
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 6:55:11 PM
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I just spoke with the man that I bought the 6.5 semi from. He has another 6.5 for sale. It was thought to be semi but it turned out to be bolt action with the spring being a recoil inhibitor. He said it allow less recoil.
It is dated 1925 and is a prototype it was not put into production because soon after ww1 this came out of the same estate as the 6.5 scotti. Any idea on what it is or worth they want 1529.00 for it and i have until monday to say yes or no it is marked. A round metal disk on the left side with the letters MBT, also it is marked MBT 1925 over the chamber. No serial number that i have seen. Any Info on maker or where i might find info?
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Terry Tweed



DocAV
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 7:02:45 PM
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MBT "Mecchanica Bresciana Tempini" ===Tempini's Mechanical Workshops in Brescia.
Tempini was a Gun maker, having contracted for M1874 and M1889 (Glisenti) revolvers, and other Gun Parts. They were also major M91 parts suppliers to the Other Makers of the M91 series of firearms.

Need photos to be able to ID further.



g-43
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 7:22:59 PM
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This what I have doc. Thanks for your help.

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Terry Tweed



DocAV
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 9:55:17 PM
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I would say it is a very Early italian Semi Auto, from the look of the mechanism, probably similar to the Scotti ( straight pull Bolt mechanism, and probably a Cei-Rigotti type Gas tappet)

To see the exact nature of the mechanism would require a complete dissassembly and photos.
This would be one of the earliest ( after the Cei Rigotti of 1900) of the attempts to make a semi auto rifle in Italy after WW I.

The ideas of economy are evident, using existing parts, etc, to built a SA rifle.
One other thought, it could be a "rapid fire" mechanism ( hand operated, fires as the bolt locks up ( similar to the M1892 (Mondragon), which was straight pull, with deliberate trigger fire, and also "rapid fire, where the bolt upon locking, caused the sear to trip and release the firing Pin; Mondragon's M1908 Gas-operated semi auto also had a "hand operated straight Pull feature".

Only a complete pull down will decide eactly what this MBT rifle is.

I would snap it up, even at $2K...



g-43
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 10:21:05 PM
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He took it out and fired it he said that you have to push in the bolt landel knob to the left to open bolt pull stright back , put in striper, releace bolt handel it chambers a round,with the help of the spring behind the bolt. You pull the trigger, rifle fires then you must push in bolt handel knob in to extract round and chamber another round. He said bolt recoil is stoped by the need to push in handel each time to chamber a new round. He says it bolt not semi.
Any other thoughts?



DocAV
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 09:17:42 AM
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Even if it is a "spring assisted" bolt gun, the type of action is straight pull, and so would lend itself to semi-Auto fire (if there is a gas tappet or some other actuating system).

In any case, it is of sufficient interest mechanically to spend the money and acquire it, for its rarity alone.

Maybe part of the Bolt handle mechanism is broken, and so will only work as a "Bolt Gun" rather than Semi-Auto.
Without a close look at the mechanism dismantled, I can't give any further opinions.



DMala
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 10:59:10 AM
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It may also be sensitive to the type of ammo used,, e.g. the fellow tried it with old surplus ammo which did not previde adequate pressure. Or it was just dirty.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
More Pics Pt. 1: MBT 6.5mm ITALIAN SEMI AUTO RIFLE 1925

g-43
Posted - 06/26/2006 : 01:19:32 AM
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Well here goes more photos of the semi auto 1925 MBT in 6.5mm. I have taken several other photos of the MBT rifle in hopes someone can identify.
On the right side of the rifle it has a charging handel that must be pushed in to cock the weapon the knob itsef is spring loaned an is what moves on the bolt carrier,below the charging handel you will see a square leaver it is the bolt hold open, the rifle uses standard n block 6 rd charge clips that fall out the bottom when last round is chambered. It also has a button on back of mag well to remove while there is ammo still in n block. On the left side you will see the saftey leaver it is marked S to front and F to rear.Uses standard itailian bayonet.Rear left side of endcap on reciver is button to allow rear cap to be unscrewed to gain access to op spring.Top of reciver bolt ejection is done through top of reciver,extractor is on top of bolt.It also has a spring loaded piece of metal that reminds me of the dust cover on the g-43 top area reciver above bolt. It is semi auto! I took photo of it with my scotti X to show size diferences. MBT is shorter than scotti X. The MBT overall length is 42.5 inches, Barell is 21 inches. I would guess weight to be 8.5 pounds.This rifle is made like a tank with beautiful metal work and deep blue finish, it looks mid 1920s art novell.I am trying to decide whether to try to take apart and try to photo more? markings are MBt on stock left side medilian, MBT 1925 on reciver over chamber,on left side of triger housing MBT and anumber 3 in a circle. The stock is of two piece construction that is juined at front swivel band .I got a lead from a semi colectior at the show this weekend he said he belive this company was absorbed by beretta and there may be info on the minserty of defence web site .Any thing you may know please contact me. Thanks Terry

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Terry Tweed
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
More Pics Pt. 2: MBT 6.5mm ITALIAN SEMI AUTO RIFLE 1925

Due to the maximum limit of 12 pictures per post on the new board, I had to split G43's old posting into 3 parts:

* * *

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
More Pics Pt. 3: MBT 6.5mm ITALIAN SEMI AUTO RIFLE 1925

Due to the maximum limit of 12 pictures per post on the new board, I had to split G43's old posting into 3 parts:

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Len S
Posted - 06/26/2006 : 9:03:39 PM
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Hi g,
Thanks for posting the pics.That is one impressive piece of machinery.

Best regards,
Len
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Update on research

g-43
Posted - 07/24/2006 : 12:26:47 PM
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Thanks for the e-mails and advice I have recived on trying to id the unkown 6.5 I posted pictures of earlier ,I have recived e-mails from the Imperal War Museum , and the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum, Museum At Aberdean say that they have no idea what it is .If anyone finds anything please contact me.Thanks Again for your help.
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Terry Tweed
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Scotti X semi-auto rifle in 6,5x52, Part 1

collectaholic
Posted - 11/28/2004 : 02:31:44 AM
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Any one there have a Scotti x? There is one in gunbroker for $3500. Gave some thought to upgrading mine. But price seems a bit high. Just wondering how many of the original 250 are still out there?

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g-43
Posted - 06/05/2006 : 11:58:46 AM
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This is a picture of the 6.5 semi auto; they did see combat. I picked up at a local gun shop - sorry it took so long for the photos. What could I ask for it?

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Terry Tweed
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Scotti X semi-auto rifle in 6,5x52, Part 2

wysk88
Posted - 06/05/2006 : 12:32:28 PM
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The M1931 Scotti was tested by the Italian Army but not adopted for service. Never seen one with my own eyes. Nice find!



DocAV
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 02:10:25 AM
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Scotti Model X ( ie, Ten), oir in Ourspeak, M1932 (year 10 of the Fascist era).

A brilliant combination of Mannlicher's Straight Pull Bolt unlocking design, with a gas tappet system, and massive recoil spring in the long tube at the rear of the action.

Problem with it was that it was limited to the Carcano 6 round clip, and the action was Over-long, as was the entire rifle (That's why a lot of Scotti and Beretta SA rifles were confused with "Long M91" Bolt rifles, and ended up in the USA as $14,95 Milsurp in the 1960s)

The Scotti was never adopted, although extensively trialled in the early 1930s.
Some of the various SA rifles(Scotti, Beretta, Breda, Armaguerra) did find their way into Combat in the dark 1943-45 years of the Internal Civil war between the German controlled Northern provinces and the resistance/Communist bandits/ and the Allies.
No other Combat use is known, earlier. Some may have been trialled in Abyssinia, 1935-36.

Prices: Start at $1K for a grotty, dirty, etc POS condition one, and go up from there.Scotti rifles are to be considered "prototype" status.



DMala
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 2:04:03 PM
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Great find! What is the date, thanks?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Scotti X semi-auto rifle in 6,5x52, Part 3

rblue
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 6:43:46 PM
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g-43, nice rifle.

I had to chime in. Your's is 19 numbers off from mine. It's not very often that I get to show mine and talk about it for the simple reason that they are really esoteric. I have only seen a couple of them before. Your's is maybe the 4th one.

Here are some photos of mine including some dissasembled photos. It is an interesting design.
DocAV, are there any production numbers out there? I don't recall seeing any serial numbers over 250.
R.Blue

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/rblue/20066618375_scotimodx.JPG
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Scotti X semi-auto rifle in 6,5x52, Part 4

rblue
Posted - 06/06/2006 : 7:01:10 PM
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My screw up on the photos.
I'll try it again.
R.Blue

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Discussion Starter #15
Still the Scotti Thread

g-43
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 7:52:24 PM
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Nice rifle I know where there is another for sale its is serial number is under 70 I wonder how many of the orginal 250 are left and how many in the U.S.?
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Terry Tweed



rblue
Posted - 06/07/2006 : 11:09:42 PM
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Terry,
I don't have any information on them. I looked around a few years ago when I got mine but coudn't find much of anything.
I have heard the production number of 250 rifles but have seen no documentation relating to that.
The only ones that I have seen are yours, mine, one that a friend of mine had, and the photo of one in the various W.H.B. Smith's Books.
R.Blue



DMala
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 1:10:55 PM
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I may be able to find the total number of Modello X produced written somewhere, I will post it if I find it.

I know directly of a total of three in the US (the two posted above and another one auctioned a year ago or so), Dick Hobbs heard years ago of one located in Israel, and I heard second-hand info about less than an handful located in Italy (one was tested and published on one of the Italian gun magazines years ago).

PS Terry, I sent you e-mails, did you get them?

PPS RBlue, is yours accuracy-marked? In the picture of the barrel flats there is a stamp that seems similar to the crossed rifles.



rblue
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 4:38:27 PM
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DMala,
Thre are no crossed rifle proofs.
Here are a couple of more shots of the area.
R.Blue

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Discussion Starter #16
Last part of the Scotti X Thread

DMala
Posted - 06/08/2006 : 6:10:14 PM
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Thanks, and by the way congratulations for the important find.



DMala
Posted - 06/09/2006 : 12:01:14 AM
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A 2002 article on the Military Rifle Journal also provides a total production figure of 250 for the Scotti Mod. X. It shows pictures of the sample number 174, and it mentions sample number 76 in a California collection. The Italian magazine "Diana Armi" published a review of sample number 84.



BradB
Posted - 06/11/2006 : 3:36:17 PM
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I saw one picked up in an Illinois show for $125. Still resides in a collection in Belleville.



redyelkram
Posted - 12/30/2006 : 10:50:09 PM
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I was reading about the Scotti model X on the forum and I wanted to tell you guys that I have # 165 in my collection. It is in pretty good shape but is missing some of the forstock and front swivel.
I have shot it several times but it is not an easy gun to shoot.It shoots from open breech so it moves a lot but with practice I was able to hit the target at 50 yards (8.5 x11 ) but would hate to have to use it to eat. I well try to post some photos
Mark



lonewolfalpha
Canada
Posted - 01/05/2007 : 2:53:32 PM
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That is a sweet peice of history and a good reason to raid pawnshops on a regular basis, I've never even heard of this rifle until today.
Congrats on the sweet find.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Breda Model PG semi-auto rifle

GJD
Posted - 10/29/2005 : 7:34:08 PM
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Has anyone ever fired or even heard of the Italian Breda PG 7X57 semi-auto rifle? Made for Costa Rica, my blue books tell me that a PG in good quality is worth $200-300. I'm quite interested in learning more about this rifle. There are barely any references to it anywhere! Thanks.



DocAV
Posted - 10/30/2005 : 7:58:36 PM
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Breda made several Versions of the PG rifle (PG= "Presa-Gaz", or "Gas takeoff").
The Most common are the 7mm versions for Costa Rica, which were SELECTIVE FIRE (NFA 34 material).
Breda also made 6,5 Italian versions, and tried out a 7,35 M38 version as well. The Italian trials rifles were semi-auto only.

Occasionally an Italian version shows up in US sales, but only occasionally. Any Italian (6,5mm) Semi Auto ( Breda, Scotti, Beretta or ArmaGuerra) are rather rare.

As to the Costa-Rican version 0nly being $200-$300, that's obviously for a "Parts Kit" (Torched receiver),or DEWAT as these are NFA guns.
I would think there are None or very Few original Costa Rican 7mm on the NFA Registry as Tax-Paid transferables.

As to actual use, the Costa Rican ones got a lot of "Police" use in that country (and wear and tear as well)
The Italian Ones were used to some extent by both sides from 1943-45 in the internal "Civil War" in German-occupied Northern Italy, as did any other type of semi-auto still in depots in the North at that time.
Good firing capability in semi-auto, but just about uncontrollable in Full Auto, except for very short bursts ( 2-3 rounds max).
A bit on the fragile side, but good mag capacity ( 20 rounds).

A reasonable design that could have done with more gov't and financial support, as well as in field testing ands improvement.
Quickly overtaken post war by other better and more easily manufactured designs.



GJD
Posted - 10/30/2005 : 9:11:40 PM
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Hmm, this is what my book (Standard Catalog of Military Firearms) says:

"Breda Model PG

Chambered for the 7x57mm rimless cartridge, this is a gas operated self loading rifle with an 18" barrel and 20-round detachable box magazine. The particular rifle was made by Beretta for Costa Rica and is marked 'Gobierno De Costa Rica,' with the date 1935 and Roman numerals XIII. Weight was about 11.5 lbs. Fitted for a Costa Rican Mauser bayonet.

Excellect - $450
Very Good - $375
Good - $250
Fair - $150
Poor - $75 "

Why do you say that those prices must be for a kit? Is my book way off of the mark here?
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- GJD



DMala
Posted - 10/30/2005 : 10:35:51 PM
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I think several months ago Shotgun News magazine had an ad for one of these Costarican Breda selective fire (in the machinegun section) for a price if I remember well around 7-8000 dollars.



MGMike
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 7:51:08 PM
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The "Standard Catalog of Military Firearms" is good only for the photos, many of which illustrate rare or seldom seen machine guns. Forget the text: it's worse than useless.

If you find ANY Beretta PG at those listed prices, buy it.

The only versions seen in the USA are the Costa Rican models in 7mm; a few dozen were imported by Interarms in the 1960s and sold both live and deactivated. M



amafrank
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 12:06:23 AM
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Lots of the books are not very accurate on non standard weapons. As noted, the Costa Rican model is select fire and is actually single or 3 rd burst. Neat concept but just like most of the BREDA machineguns it was quite complex and a machinists nightmare. I did some repair work on a barrel for a registered MG and it must have required 7 or 8 setups and 20 operations to finish it from a rifled tube to a barrel. The selectors are not always marked in an obvious manner and that could be a reason why they are thought to be semi auto. Good luck in finding one
Frank
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Breda PG Rifle Pictures

chuck2024
Gunboards Member



39 Posts
Posted - 01/31/2007 : 01:02:12 AM
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These are pictures of Costa Rican troops with the Breda PG rifle. I posted these on the semi-automatic forum. here is the link: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=208155

This is a very rare Italian Semi-Automatic rifle made by BREDA between 1935 and 1936. There is very little information available other than the only country that used them was Costa Rica. There were only about 800 ever made in 7mm Mauser. Any body has any additional information? This gun was used during the 1948 Revolution and to repell the 1955 invation. How much woud one of these rifle be worth on the market today?

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Cabinetman
Posted - 01/30/2007 : 4:22:20 PM
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Funny you should ask. I've doing some research on WWII semi-auto rifles (I collect them) and found this bit after thinking that Italy didn't field a semi-auto (along with a whole lot of other countries).

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/Italy/Semiauto/ItalSemi.htm

First of all, chances of finding one in this country would be slim and none unless you happened across a vet-bringback. It would be worth a LOT.....probably in the range of a G43 which HAS a history. Any super-small issue military rifle will be gold to a collector, even me! However, ultimately, it would be they buyer who finally sets the price.



MGMike
Posted - 01/30/2007 : 9:39:43 PM
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The Breda GPs in 7x57 made for Costa Rica are classified by BATF as machineguns. They are in fact selective-fire, with what might be the world's first burst-fire control device. It limits full-auto bursts to four rounds per burst. Several dozen were imported by Interarms in the early 'sixties and disappeared into various collections, so they are not as rare as one might think. However, the figures given in the "Standard Catalog" are a good illustration of why that publication is AFU. Great photos, but the text is worthless.



chuck2024
Posted - 01/31/2007 : 12:09:14 AM
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Thanks for the information. I suspected is was a full auto but in the Costa Rican documents I saw there was no mention of this. These are Costa Rican troops (civilians in arms) participating in the 1948 Revolution. The rifle is only reffered to as the "Mosqueton Breda" in the documents.



Tombstone
Posted - 01/31/2007 : 12:26:10 AM
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I found this in a copy of The Book Of Rifles

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MGMike
Posted - 01/31/2007 : 08:17:26 AM
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A few of the Breda PGs in 6.5mm Carcano are reported to have been made without the burst-fire device, as semi-auto-only rifles, though the rifle fires from an open bolt. To the best of my knowledge, all of the 7x57mm Costa Rican models that reached the USA were selective-fire versions. They are marked "Moschetto Automatico" on the receiver and dated both 1935 and "XIII" (year of Mussolini's rule).

During the 1930s the Italians developed several modern-looking semi-auto rifles in the hope of replacing the bolt-action M91. The Beretta M1931 never progressed past the prototype stage, but the Scotti Model X (1932?) was made in very small numbers--apparently enough that, like the Breda GP, a few have survived. I have seen two that are privately owned in the US. The Scotti has an interesting, and possibly unique operating system: a conventional gas piston pushes away a locking "chock", and allows the bolt to rotate open by delayed blowback.

In addition, during the early years of WWII, the Czechs at Brno developed a version of the ZK391 semi-auto rifle intended for sale to the Italians, but it never went into production.



chuck2024
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 08:03:53 AM
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This is a picture of the Breada PG's Magazine.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/chuck2024/2007248310_218990[1].jpg
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Cabinetman
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 10:07:13 AM
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Well, that is interesting info. However, to "fit" into MBR (main battle rifle) status, a particular rife has to be more well-known and successful. From the late 1890s foward there were many semi-auto rifle prototypes which were little more than experiments. Some like this Italian one, were produced in very small numbers but never came close to reaching MBR status. That is NOT to say that they are not important in the light of gun-history. On the contrary, each of them helped the technology move forward or, at least, helped disprove a technology being attempted.

I imagine that pursuing rifles such as these could be a full-time affair, too. These are extremely rare to be sure. Even having seen one would be exciting.

Rome
 
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