[Ranger58]

Hello everyone,

A collection of firearms came through my friend's shop and they asked me to help with some of the older rifles. In this collection there were several Martini Henry's, two British 450/577, two Nepal. 450/577 a 12ga Greener Egyptian? , one without any markings on the sides of the receiver although one British stamp on the top of the receiver and several on the barrel.

Now the one in question, chambered in British 303 and markings that I believe may be that of the Kyber Pass Rifles. I would appreciate any help, I don't want to give them the wrong information.

Thanks,

Craig

 

[srinde]

The Vicoria cypher and 1925 certainly do not belong together.

 

[Short-Sighted]

Hi, George V was on the throne (1910-1936), Queen Victoria died 22[SUP]nd[/SUP] January 1901. A Mk III Martini Enfield, once converted to .303 would become a Martini Enfield Mk I, so the left hand side would be stamped up with the conversion details. All the stamps appear to be fake, with the usual bad spacing and reversed letters and numbers.

 

[fred2892]

A fine example of an earlier KP gun before they got better at making the stamps and putting them in the correct place. Its amazing now to look back at these and believe they actually fooled people.

 

[DoubleD]

The Markings are counterfiet, I don't believe the gun is.

 

[Ranger58]

DoubleD, Can you expand on that statement.

Thanks

 

[DoubleD]

Mainly the action that has caught me eye. Angles look right, machine cut at trigger mount on trigger guard looks right, trigger looks like a replacement. Thumb rest looks right.

I am to lazy to go dig out my Treatise and I am not real savvy on ME barrel configurations. Okay dinner can wait, I am the cook, I went and got the book. It looks like a combination of different types, but closest to ME. Somebody more knowledgeable can verify

 

[Short-Sighted]

Hi folks, there is a lovely Trade Pattern Martini Henry Mk II on the 'UKM Sales' web-site, it has the 'Alex Henry 12 St Andrew Street Edinburgh' address on the barrel and a Martini Patent Monogram on the left side, plus Victorian Proof marking. It was great just as it was, then someone has added 'B.S.A & M.Co' plus '1879', no Royal Cypher, Lock Viewer’s mark, mark of arm or class of arm, wrong font and the numbers do not line up. To cap it all, there is a hole drilled in the right hand side of the body. It doesn’t have to be military to be wanted. Why Lord, Why?

 

[richardwv]

I'm with Douglas on this one. It would be good to see what is under the wood and on the internals. First blush is that it is a volunteer rifle that someone "improved" upon. Given the crude nature of the markings, I'd guess it was "improved" outside of the western world.

As to why they do it, the perception has historically been that if it isn't military, it is just an obsolete used gun for a cartridge nobody has. That has changed in some areas, but far from everywhere. Trashing a volunteer is bad enough, but what Afghans are doing to their own Kabul arsenal firearms is near criminal. Scrubbing and remarking relatively low production arms that are part of their heritage to appear to be guns made in the tens of thousands from another country all in the name of fooling soldiers out of a few more bucks just underscores how actions can become misguided over a few pieces of silver.

 

[Jon-Paul]

Aloha,
100% agree with Richard's statements having just restored a nice Kabul made carbine - still working on the trigger issue.....
A great rifle with excellent history, all put off with a scrubbing and a few metal stamps.
I over look that and think about the tales it could tell if it could speak!
[If it spoke to me - i'd be checking myself in, no worries there]

But either way, this is still a nice looking gun, that could be restored correctly - which tells its own story of transition and rebirth

JP

 

[Short-Sighted]

Hi folks,
I have just spotted another Khyber Pass type fake in the United Kingdom. It’s on the ‘Holts Auctioneers’ web-site catalogue; Sale A1062, Lot 940 (They are now aware). It’s a nice looking Martini Henry Carbine, but IC1 is back to front, Enfield is in the wrong font & bad spacing, the cross on the crown is wrong, no dot between VR, class of arms ‘2’ is the wrong font and nothing lines up vertically. Also S.X is stamped as X.S, the distances on the sight 100, 200 and 300 yards, have the 1,2,3 back to front and the inspection stamps are quite unique. I’m sure this carbine was genuine enough, but it has now been permanently tainted. So fake Martini Henry firearms are a problem for us all, where ever we live! The photos are copyright, so I can’t load them. Check it out!

 

[muffett.2008]

My understanding on posting other photo's that are in the public domain, is that you aknowledge the original owner/post, if in the private domain, you need to seek permission, otherwise every paper, magazine, tv station and so on would be in strife.
As these forums are considered to be restricted, you need permission to use a photo from one of them, but an Auctioneers catalogue is considered public.

 

[richardwv]

Public Domain often is a fine line and use of such material, when recent in origin, is often limited to that of its original intent/purpose. Does posting a pic from a catalogue where someone is pointing out that the listing is wrong and its a fake fit into orginal intent/purpose? I don't know. Political campaigns frequently get embroiled in this arguement as one side holds up the other side's ads for ridicule. Posting the web site is much safer and avoids the whole issue.

 

[DoubleD]

Holts website and catalog is not in the public domain.


The public domain refers to works whose intellectual property rights have expired,[SUP][1][/SUP] been forfeited,[SUP][2][/SUP] or are inapplicable. Examples include the English language, the formulae of Newtonian physics, the works of Shakespeare and Beethoven, and the patents on powered flight.[SUP][1][/SUP] The term is not normally applied to situations when the creator of a work retains residual rights, in which case use of the work is referred to as "under license" or with permission. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

You may post a link to the auction, but you may not copy and post the pictures with out Holt's express permission.

If there is any doubt in you mind, I refer you to the board rule.

No Hotlinking without permission of copyright holder. The hotlinking or copying the work of others from anywhere on the internet without the specific permission of the copyright holder is a violation Digital Millennium Act and is not allowed on the board. You may quote the work of others but you must provided a citation identifying the source. Posting a link to a page will not be considered a credit. You must identify the source in your post.

Here is the link.

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=A1062++++940+&refno=+++54829

 

[Short-Sighted]

Hi, I’m sorry I did not want to start a fight over not posting someone else’s photographs or even a link to their site. DoubleD has found that actual Martini that I was referring to in his link. The point was that Holts is a very reputable British Auction House and I believed that they had incorrectly catalogued a Martini Henry carbine. I spoke to them on Friday and they reluctantly accepted that this firearm was not as it seemed and that they will add a note to be included at the time of the sale, which will be by auction in London, later in the month. To me and my rapidly fading eyesight, it has all the hallmarks of a Khyber Pass type fake. It started off as a perfectly good Trade Pattern Martini and then someone tried to enhance its value by making it appear to be of British military origin. The British military have brought a lot of genuine and fake Martini Henry’s back to UK from Afghanistan, chances are that this is one of them. I guess that before you hand over your hard earned Dollars, Pounds or Euro’s, it pays to do your research. Regards.