[skikir]

I'm thinking of doing an article about WWII Carbines. If carbine is defined as a shortened version of a rifle then compared to a Gewehr98 it would. I'd hate to write something and have everyone say "hey that's not a carbine!"

 

[GeorgeA]

Its a carbine

 

[Hambone]

Kar.98k = Karabiner 98 Kurz = English translation: Carbine 98 Short or Short Carbine Model of 1898. Curiously the Germans had the Gewehr 43 (G.43) and Karabine 43 (K.43) which were the same length, same weapon really, but it was first Gew. (rifle) and then Kar. (carbine). Of course, the G.33/40, the shortest of the German issue rifles, was G. = Gew. = Gewehr = rifle, not carbine. This was in keeping with the German military nomenclature for their foriegn used weapons, all of which were "Gew." (e.g. Gew.24(t), Gew.98/40, etc.).

In short (pun intended), the K98k was technically a carbine, particularly when compared to the Gew.98.

 

[mrfarb]

I'm pretty sure the Germans considered a rifle a carbine when it had a turned down bolt and side mounted sling, like the Kar98a of WW1 vintage. They did in fact name the Karabiner98b because of the turned down bolt and side mount sling, although it was the same length at the Gew98. Those rascally Germans.

 

[Wapruf2]

I'm pretty sure the Germans considered a rifle a carbine when it had a turned down bolt and side mounted sling, like the Kar98a of WW1 vintage. They did in fact name the Karabiner98b because of the turned down bolt and side mount sling, although it was the same length at the Gew98. Those rascally Germans.[/QUOTE

It is what contemporary competent authority said what it is; don't look for logic beyond that.
BTW, the Kar 57 (needle gun) had a straight bolt and sling ring; the (Saxon) Kar 73 and the Prussian altered Chassepots (a.k.a. in some sources the "altered Chassepot" and /or "Prussian Kar 73") had bent bolts and belly swivels; the Werder Kar 69 didn't have a bolt at all and had a sling ring; the Kar 71 has a bent bolt and belly swivels.

For the purpose of your article establish your own criteria, specify it , and go from there.

 

[vinni]

the k in k98 stands for carbine in german. karabiner--sry cant spell guys . once again i havent read the other comments before posting this so im shure there is plenty of awsome info above. good luck on the article.

 

[mrfarb]

This thread proves what WaPruf2 says, decide for yourself what the definition is and go with it, as the classification changed as history/authority decided it to.

 

[wombat12]

Nomenclature aside, I would consider a 98K a short rifle rather than a true carbine. If you list a 98K as a carbine, you'll also have to list the Springfield 1903, Czech VZ24, FN 30, MAS36, and a host of other short rifles in your listing since they all have pretty much the same specs.

 

[builttoughf250]

somewhere in the article explain why you are calling it a carbine.... er, karabiner. "the Germans designated the shorter version of the 1898 as K98, or Karabiner98"

 

[Hambone]

So what mods were done to the Rifle 43 (G.43) to make it a Karabiner 43 (K.43)?

We aren't going to force our nomenclature and definitions on what was done in the 1940s. I think we just have to go with that they called it.

 

[rogerbutthead]

I am not really sure if it is even worth arguing about. It is certainly shorter than a Gew98 but the same/similar length of other rifles.

Hambone's point of the differences in the G43 vs K43 is of course correct (there aren't any for those few here who do not know this)

This is kinda the same "value" of an argument as when I was "yelled" at for calling an MP44 an assault rifle and that it should not be put in a SMG comparison - by one who lived and breathed that the Germans were correct in any designation they gave a weapon. (the entire story of the "hiding" of the continued development of the Mkb42(H) over Hitler's objections was lost on him)

So I guess I am trying to make my point and then move on . . . . . . . you gonna include the MP44 series in your carbine article?

 

[Hambone]

Roger, at least it hasn't degenerated yet into a 10 page debate over why the G.33/40 is a "rifle" and the Kar.98k is a "carbine" when the former is much shorter than the latter....:burp

 

[srinde]

I am not really sure if it is even worth arguing about. It is certainly shorter than a Gew98 but the same/similar length of other rifles.

Hambone's point of the differences in the G43 vs K43 is of course correct (there aren't any for those few here who do not know this)

This is kinda the same "value" of an argument as when I was "yelled" at for calling an MP44 an assault rifle and that it should not be put in a SMG comparison - by one who lived and breathed that the Germans were correct in any designation they gave a weapon. (the entire story of the "hiding" of the continued development of the Mkb42(H) over Hitler's objections was lost on him)

So I guess I am trying to make my point and then move on . . . . . . . you gonna include the MP44 series in your carbine article?

I though the whole reason the germans called the MP44 a Machinepistol was to get the project past Hitler.

 

[rogerbutthead]

From what I read, you are correct. It is just that some people compare the MP43/44 series with SMGs - the pistol cartridge type - when most people would plainly consider that apples and oranges - just because of the MP in the name.

 

[enfielded]

I agree, I personally consider the K98k to be a rifle for the notes above related to its "rifle" contemporaries, 1903 etc. But I would not fault someone for calling it a carbine.

Roger,

The only valid argument I could see in comparing the MP44 to SMG's were if you were putting it into a historical context of its peers. IE MP44/MP40/M1A1 etc as there was no other intermediate cartridge rifle in production. Federov's automat excluded.

Amazing how their is always an exception in gun discussion.

 

[mauser99]

Hambone, I think it was basicly a correction. Changing the g43 to k43.. Side mounted sling I think denotes making it a karbine..
K98K short 98 karbine.....I know we can drag this out as long as a truck load of slip & slides . But, whats the point..

 

[Hambone]

I though the whole reason the germans called the MP44 a Machinepistol was to get the project past Hitler.

Perhaps too or in the alternative they didn't know what else to call it other than a machine pistol because there was nothing like it (intermediate rifle cartride in a select fire weapon) ever manufactured. Stg. or "sturmgewehr" or assault rifle was the term invented for that weapon. It's pretty widely stated that that weapon was called an "MP" to get around Hitler's disapproval of development of a new rifle, but then again, there was the G.41 and G.43/K.43 in production too.

 

[Regis Rex]

I was under the impression that K98k stood for Carbine,model 98,short, meaning carbine features (bolt and side mounted sling) 98 action, short rifle. This could turn into a 10-page yakfest, but the upshot is that a K98k is a K98k.