[gryphon]

I just purchased my first Nagant, an arsenal rebuilt 1944 Izhevsk, and ran my first 14 rounds of Hotshot 7.62 Nagant through it. I am concerned. The piece seems to have either some sort of timing issue, or an excessive amount of cylinder play; especially in double action (but occasionally in single) the indexing and cylinder advance don't seem to quite match up. Usually, the cylinder is slightly under-rotated when the advance causes the lip of the round to catch on the left edge of the forcing cone, but once or twice I caught Naughty Izzy doing exactly the opposite and slightly over-rotating before the advance. When it hangs like this, the hammer will not fall (thank goodness!) I've shot a friend's '40 Tula and never experienced anything like this, but we've always used Fiocchi ammo.

What's up here? Is it likely to be the gun, or the ammo, or is it my technique on the idiosyncratic Nagant trigger? How might I diagnose and fix this?

 

[point622000]

Hi Gryphon,

Have you taken it apart yet? They are sometimes loaded with old grease & thick bluing deposits.
The revolvers operate much smoother after a GOOD cleaning. You can find very good take down instructions at the top of the Nagant revolver page.
PLEASE look them over a few times BEFORE you take it apart. You can install a part or two incorrectly. The pictures helped me see were I made my error.

If you just take off the side plate and flush it out, with gun cleaner or carb cleaner & re-oil the lockworks, you should have a better preforming revolver.
I have cleaned a few of them out, in my case. The triggers were really ugly.

I cleaned the heavy bluing deposits off with 0000 steel wool & cleaned all the lockworks pins & holes well. It made a BIG diffrence with smooth action & a much cleaner /lighter trigger.

Best to you,
point6

 

[gryphon]

Thanks, point6, you give me hope! I'll clean it out inside and report back....

 

[Radom]

I have one with a similar problem. The defect with mine is that the bottom of the hammer block is broken off. Here's a link to a pic & place to buy:
http://www.buymilsurp.com/hammer-block-m1895-russian-nagant-revolver-p-497.html Mark Kubes is good folks to deal with. Not to mention just about the only place for m1895 revolver parts.
You are already doing it, but I'll reiterate what point6 suggested, for the sake of others who haven't. Use the great takedown pics & info provided to us by 45auto and get intimate with it!! Direct link to his stickied post:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=2531

 

[gryphon]

OK, I stripped it down and cleaned and polished everything before reassembly, even added a lead slug under the mainspring. Every internal part looked just fine, nothing was loose or broken or burred. The action feels wonderful now - much, MUCH smoother. The central problem, however, remains: the lip of each Hotshot cartridge hangs on the left side of the forcing cone if (and only if) the trigger is squeezed slowly in DA. Here's the really puzzling part - if I ease back off the trigger just a tad so that the hammer lowers BUT DOESN'T COME COMPLETELY BACK TO REST, then I squeeze the trigger again, it indexes flawlessly in DA. In other words, a slow DA works if I "double-pump" it and give the hand another try at rotating the cylinder fully. It also indexes just fine if I jerk the trigger quickly in DA. It will also sometimes hang up in SA if I pull the hammer back slowly instead of cocking it with feeling.

So there it is - basically, I've figured out that what matters in both DA and SA is the speed and force with which the hammer is cocked - fast=flawless, slow=stuck. Izzy likes it rough....

But, as things stand, I could't hit the broad side of a T34 at ten paces shooting DA. So what is it, a worn hand? Funky worn indexing teeth on the cylinder? Overly long cartridges? (the Hotshot brass does protrude out if the end of the cylinder a surprisingly long ways.) Why does a double-pump on the trigger work?

Comrades, what in the name of the Peasants & Workers is going on with this thing?

 

[Begemot]

Had a similar problem with a 1945 Tula. Took me a lot of fiddling around to fix it (largely because I have done very little work on revolvers -- and they are inherently tricky). My problem turned out to be sloppy manufacturing that left the cylinder hand window too large. I carefully bent the body of the cylinder hand until the gun timed correctly. On my gun the point of the cylinder hand appeared to have been hardened, but the body of the hand could be bent. For all I know yours may snap if you try this. And it is likely enough that your problem is something else, but at least there's a lead for you to follow. BTW -- there were a lot of fitting problems with that late war Tula -- not just the one outlined above (and it was new/unissued). Good luck!

 

[Radom]

I've never played with anything but Soviet made ammo, but the cartridge sticking out the front of the cylinder don't sound right! Does the malfunction occur without cartridges in it??

 

[point622000]

OK, The central problem, however, remains: the lip of each Hotshot cartridge hangs on the left side of the forcing cone if (and only if) the trigger is squeezed slowly in DA.

The revolver was not made to be a target revolver. It was made for hard use. It does sound like the hand might be a little too short & under rotating it a tad. I would bring it to a smith & have him look at it. I'm happy the revolver seems to be smoother now.


But, as things stand, I could't hit the broad side of a T34 at ten paces shooting DA. So what is it, a worn hand? Funky worn indexing teeth on the cylinder? Overly long cartridges?

Hot shot cartridges are 1.520 long
Focchi 1.505
Russian yellow box target is 1.505 no crimp
I have no problem with any ammo in any of my revolvers.
The Russians revolver works don't seem to fit & polish parts as you have seen.
If it worked (ROTATED) it was good enough, have to turn out 300 revolvers a day for a week vacation on the Black sea.

I'm sure a good smith can locate your problen and have some FUN busting your Ba--s about the Stalin SPECIAL you handed him! My Smith loves to bust my chops, but he likes to fool with them.

I have to stand inside the barn to hit anything on the barn. I have been shooting revolvers for 30 years, the Nagant is a real double action challange. I shot mine double action a few times LOL!

Of the first seven shots fired, I missed the WHOLE paper at 25 feet five times.
Later attempts were a little better, all seven shots some place with in the largest scoring ring. It was a sad day for me!

All my Nagants shoot well single action. I'm "firm & hard" in my hammer pull, they were not meant to be stroked lightly.

I just tried three revolvers, I cannot duplicate your problem.

Do you want to sell you revolver for a loss?(Slyly smiling)
I can hear my Gun Smith now "OOH WOW! another Lenin Limited addition Olympic Match revolver for me to work on"

Good luck,
point6

 

[packrat1]

7.62 Nagant

I had one that was doing that, replaced a lot of the internal parts to get it to index right.....

 

[gryphon]

Taking Begemot's advice, I fixed my Izzie Russian-Style: I clamped the hand in a vise and hit it with a hammer. It worked! With an ever-so-slight inside bend, the hand now indexes the cylinder perfectly. I can pop off Hotshots on DA as slowly or as fast as I can pull the trigger now. Still can't hit a darn thing shooting DA, but anyway, SPACIBO Begemot!!! And thanks to all of you for helping me troubleshoot the little beast....

Looking at how wide the hand guide is milled in the frame, I bet this was an extremely common problem with war-era Nagants and war-era variations in cartridge length. It figures that the fix would be crude, simple and effective.

 

[jjk308 In Memoriam RIP]

Oh My God - I heard that, On TV maybe, the History Channel, that the Russians liked the Nagant because you could fix it with a hammer. I thought it was just hyperboli, but looks like it was true.

 

[TW1Kell]

I thought that Russian remark was, "You can also USE it as a hammer." But, then, I may have misunderstood the whole discussion. Never mind.....

 

[Evil]

weak cylinder pin spring ?????

One of mine does the same thing. I haven't had a chance to pursue it yet, but I suspect that the cylinder pin spring ( #5 at http://www.buymilsurp.com/pictorials/m1895pictorial.html ) is old and weak. And if I replace it with a fresh strong spring the problem will clear up as the stronger spring will hold the cylinder against the breech face until the recoil plate ( #34 ) pushes it forward. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but it could be an easy fix.

Good Luck !
Evil