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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Posted - 06/03/2006 Prez1981
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Prez1981
I was going through a few of my carcanos this afternoon and found some interesting serial numbers and proof marks that provoked a few questions.

1 M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055. It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. I assume this is in the last hundred or so made, as Desperate Measures indicates Cavalry Carbine numbers into the 9700 range (off the top of my head). I assume this was converted in March or April 1945? It has a well worn Carcano sling still attached. The stock is a m/m HK stock and the bolt is electro-penciled to a different rifle on the bolt body and cocking piece. Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?

2. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - FNA Brescia 1941 date. Bottom of the receiver is marked 42. SN XT1497 Bought this from a fellow board member and am very pleased. The roundel has what appears to be an oval with 4UT over 41. What is the significance of 4UT? I have seen it on some Model 1934 pistols and have heard it described as a German acceptance mark - but I have also heard contrary opinions. I assume it is just a standard Italian proof?

3. M91/38 - TS - Beretta Gardone 1939 date - I just purchased this from an online auction and am very pleased. It was imported several decades ago and is marked MADE IN ITALY in small font on the barrel. All matching. I purchased it thinking that it was mis-listed as 6.5mm when it was really 7.35mm. I thought production of 6.5mm resumed in 1940. This one is definitely 1939 (with 1939 markings on both the barrel and in the cartouche). It has an adjustable rear sight. SN is C0802. I saw some listings on the database of C block TS's in 6.5mm that were dated 1940 and several thousand later than this one. When did production of 6.5mm resume after discontinuation of 7.35? What letter blocks of TS's were made in 7.35?

Any thoughts, opinions, or information would be greatly appreciated! I'm kind of new to Carcano research/collecting.

Thank you!!!
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DMala

SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.

quote:

1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055. It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?


YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER. FUNNY, I BOUGHT IT IN 2001 AND SOLD IT A FEW YEARS LATER. I AM HAPPY IT IS IN GOOD HANDS.

2. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - FNA Brescia 1941 date. Bottom of the receiver is marked 42. SN XT1497 (...)What is the significance of 4UT? (...)


"4UT=QUARTO UFFICIO TECNICO", THAT WAS A QUALITY CONTROL STAMP FIRST USED WELL BEFORE THE GERMAN OCCUPATION.

3. M91/38 - TS - Beretta Gardone 1939 date - (...) SN is C0802. (...) When did production of 6.5mm resume after discontinuation of 7.35? What letter blocks of TS's were made in 7.35?

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THE EARLIEST RECORD I HAVE IS A B-SERIES SAMPLE DATED 1940, SO YOURS SEEMS ATYPICAL. THE 1940 B-D SERIES SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MADE FOR THE NAVY. DOES YOURS HAVE ANY ANCHOR OR PARTITIONED SHIELD STAMP? CAN YOU POST A PICTURE? WHAT IS THE ROMAN NUMERALS DATE?
THE ONLY BERETTA M38TS I KNOW OF IS A G-SERIES.

DMala
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John Wall

quote:

Originally posted by DMala

SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.

Originally posted by Prez1981

1. M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine - this one was a 1941 dated Gardone with serial number RZ4055 It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?

YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER.

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John Wall

Mine is serial number K583

Download Attachment:

(see pictures in thumbs below 9/07)

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Prez1981

I will pick up the TS this weekend, so can post more info on it then From memory, both the barrel and stock cartouche are dated 1939 and I believe XVII. I didn't see an anchor stamp, but I will look again. It DOES have the partitioned shield cartouche on the stock, and it is very clear

Thank you for all the responses. I am very pleased with all of them and am really becoming quite interested in Carcanos.
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DocAV

The Sling in the last two photos appears to be a cut down ("lift the dot" snap removed) M1 carbine sling, probably applied Post-war, when the US supplied Italy with a lot of US equipment.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
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John Wall

Hi Doc,
Actually, it was attached by the US soldier who brought this Carcano carbine home. After the old gentleman passed away 8-10 years ago, the family eventually sold off his souvenirs, which included this carbine and a pre-1935 VZ.24 which had been completely refurbished and reblued at some Axis depot. I now own both pieces. When the war ended, the soldier's unit was serving in Czechoslovakia.
Regards,
John
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DMala

quote:

Originally posted by John Wall
Mine is serial number K583

Interesting, thanks. Note the "K" made with a chisel. Congratulations for the nice find.

DMala
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DMala

quote:
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Originally posted by DMala

SEE ANSWERS IN CAPITAL FONT BELOW.

Originally posted by Prez1981

1 M91/38 - Cavalry Carbine -(...) It was converted to 8mm by HK in 1945 and the German serial number is H9738. (...) Do we know what the last serial number observed is for the Cavalry Carbine conversions?
YOURS IS THE HIGHEST NUMBER.(...)
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Apologies, I just found an error in the sorting of my data, I actually have a record for a serial number K11xx.

DMala
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Prez1981

Regarding the H vs. the K serial number block...
I heard that some of these HK conversions were made at different locations. Did the serial numbers denote this difference or did K simply follow the H block? Are all K blocks carbines?
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Franchi

John Wall has a very interesting "HK" carbine with the "K" prefix serial. I went though my data on German "HK" conversions looking for info on any other "K" serials.
.
"HK" German conversions of Italian rifles were done in model/serial blocks.
.
H6000 to H7000 range were Italian M38 Short Rifles.
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H7000 to H8000 ranges were Italian M41 Long Rifles.
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H8000 to H9999? were Italian Cavalry Carbines.
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There are also a few M41 Long Rifles reported without an "H" letter prefix (I own #4527).
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I did find one carbine H9485 with a mis-matched "HK" stock serial numbered K1001.
To me this indicates the Germans produced their "HK" Cavalry Carbine conversions to the end of the H9999 block then went to a "K" serial prefix block? They used the "K" prefix like they used the "H"prefix from "HK"? The Germans didn't like to use the letter "I" or "J" in serial numbers.
John Wall's carbine is an FNA Brescia which used an adjustable rear sight, note the adjusting leaf has been removed, just like the Germans did on the M41 rifle, to make the sight "fixed" Also the 7,9 is on the side of the barrel, not on the top where it is normally placed, and the Germans didn't mark out the original Italian serial on the barrel or stock.
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John, is there a "G" on the recoil lug?
Is the bolt electric penciled with the serial?
Is there any sign of an "HZa" or "WaA" on the lower edge of the butt stock spine?
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Don't know about the sling, it looks thinner than U.S. a carbine sling I have a German used M24 Yugoslavian Mauser with a similar web sling sewn on
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Nice find with an unusual serial.
David Franchi
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