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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Interesting point/question. What is the point in hoarding (and we all do it ) if most fire-fights result in death?

The second point is is it best to form a small militia instead of hunkering down? If you hunker, the golden horde will get you eventually? Better to be on the offensive?

Jim,
I couldn't agree with Dan B. more. He hit the nail on the head and identified the weak spot in most people's preparations. I have been in hundreds of training firefights using MILES gear and two real firefights. Real firefights are characterized by an eerie feeling of being alone. Everyone takes cover and essentially becomes invisible. Nobody is shooting because that gives away your position. It's like a lethal game of hide-and-seek. Targets are fleeting and rare.

Real fire fights rarely last more than a couple of magazines because you don't have any targets to engage. In the military, If you ever actually see an enemy and give away your position by firing at him, your chances of surviving the next few minutes are low. If you engage an enemy, his buddies will know your position and kill you. The odds of a single survivor holding off hoards of hungry people are effectively zero.

The basic load for soldiers carrying M16 rifle or M4 carbine is seven magazines or 210 rounds. This is as much ammunition as most people can carry and still maneuver. The only way you are going to use up that much ammo in a single engagement is if you and your enemy are at extreme range and can't see each other. This isn't combat, it's a demonstration or at best [fire] suppression. At effective combat range, somebody is going to die within seconds, not minutes. If your position is known, you will be dead very soon. If you are defending your house from inside it, your position is known from the start.

Bunkering up can give you some advantage since you can fire from behind cover. But a lot of preppers seem to overestimate the effectiveness of fixed defenses. If you consider your defenses a "last ditch defense" that's exactly what they will become. In the Army, we call this "Custering." or "Die in place" (DIP). Fortifications will only buy you time. Your enemy will take more casualties until they determine where your defenses are and your fields of fire. But make no mistake, they probably won't just give up and go away. They will besiege you and form a plan. Given time to plan, any fixed defense can be breached. They will use suppression fire or smoke to mask movement. They may use explosives or tear gas. They may have an armored vehicle or heavy weapons. The point is, once you are located, you are doomed unless you bug out and abandon your fortress. If you are under siege, you can't bug out. Rule number one for snipers is: " Always have an egress route".

If you have a good reliable weapon and two basic loads (just in case you survive a firefight or two) you are probably overstocked on ammo. If you ever allow yourself to be put in a position where you actually have to use that weapon, you probably won't survive it
 

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If you ever allow yourself to be put in a position where you actually have to use that weapon, you probably won't survive it
I’ve always held that a small community working together is the best hope for long term survival.

While the writer dose have a couple valid points, I cannot agree with what seems to be his basic, “It’s all hopeless, just lay down and die” attitude. I cannot count the number of people I know who have “actually used their weapon” and are still alive and quite well.

“If you ever actually see an enemy and give away your position by firing at him, your chances of surviving the next few minutes are low. If you engage an enemy, his buddies will know your position and kill you.”

It has been almost a decade since I was in the sandbox. But if this is our current military doctrine then I will have to start praying a lot harder for our troops, as they are going to need it. :(
 

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Both of you bring forth the point I have always made - even when the SHTF, even hunting with a rifle is dangerous. It tells others you are armed and that you most likely have gotten food. Don't get me wrong, I will never be empty handed when it comes to a firearm - but its use needs to be very controlled.

Good writing gentlemen.
 

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The "author" presents a very limited scenario from a narrow perspective. There are plenty of situations and could, would, be rather quite varied in civil unrest. The advantage is to the defender and the attacker has much to worry about. Giving a bully a bloody nose tends to encourage them to move along and leave you alone. Even if you're mad, no matter how hungry you are you won't eat rat poison, or hyper-velocity bullets. The last two events that come to mind first are Haiti and Greece. Who's bugging out? Who wouldn't choose to be armed and defend their castle!? Even people there who CAN'T defend themselves are planting their flag if only to stay and pray. Most here would be as interested to spray and pray. Some are prepared not to abuse anyone and won't be abused; refuse to be a victim.
Alden
Bring Back HUAC!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The "author" presents a very limited scenario from a narrow perspective. There are plenty of situations and could, would, be rather quite varied in civil unrest. The advantage is to the defender and the attacker has much to worry about. Giving a bully a bloody nose tends to encourage them to move along and leave you alone. Even if you're mad, no matter how hungry you are you won't eat rat poison, or hyper-velocity bullets. The last two events that come to mind first are Haiti and Greece. Who's bugging out? Who wouldn't choose to be armed and defend their castle!? Even people there who CAN'T defend themselves are planting their flag if only to stay and pray. Most here would be as interested to spray and pray. Some are prepared not to abuse anyone and won't be abused; refuse to be a victim.
Alden
Bring Back HUAC!
Good point Alden. His view is limited.
 

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Gotta quit thinking solo... survival is numbers and guns... start organizing family friends church members sorority sisters folks at work whatever and get them to prep some as well .. at least to bring food and water with them.. especially if you are a gun collector and can arm 50 or 60 folks already with your collection and have plenty of ammo... you are going to need 24/7 guards on duty as well as folks to cook and keep things running.. you are going to need NEED warm friendly bodies just as much if not more so than clean water.. you can't stack them in your guest room against the day you might need them .. so it's better to just network and educate and stress the simple fact everybody survives longer and safer in groups.. then plan accordingly with your preps and get them to prep themselves with whatever you don't already have in excess of your needs like guns and ammo.
I suspect most of us could arm and supply a squad, maybe even a platoon, with ammo for longer than we have food and water stocks for our immediate families. Just find the friendly and hopefully trusted folks to use the extra guns you already have and get them to bring enough food with them to feed themselves .. A house can in a pinch shelter alot of folks and there is always tents and sleeping bags.... make provisons for field sanitiation for the size of your group.... if nothing else you can catch rain water coming off the roof... 1000 sq foot of roof yields about 600 gallons of water per inch of rain... a 2000 sq foot house can supply enough water assuming an inch of rain a week for about 60 people for drinking, cooking, and hygene. You will need to be able to collect and store and purify that water with a sizeable reserve... I figure 12 to 15 folks is minimum to have a fighting chance and they will need some training to use even basic tactics.. two coordinated fire teams using even basic tactics can out gun an armed mob 4 or 5 times their size and win...
 

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Good thing those Koreans in the LA riots did not read this article... :)

Seriously though aint no one man or even a group gonna be able to withstand a cooridinated attack by well armed tactically trained adversaries for a sustaained period of time...now roving bands of starving untrained civilians then your group might have a fairly good chance...
 

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Very interesting points. My sump pump alone can provide me with enough water for my famil and naighbors. But I still think LEAVING and getting out of dodge is first on my priority list, if possible. GET OUT of wichita first. Let the hordes fight over the scraps. Get to my family land.
 

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Ruskie.. yeah if you are urban or even suburban you need to coordinate with friends or family out in the country or at least outside city limits to have some place to get to thats defensiable ... I was in pure country, with fields of fire over cotton and soybean.. then the city started bulding my way.. half the fields are gone now, fortunately mostly county sheds, a new TVA workshop, and an industrial park, but there are new housing developments not 10 minutes away in two directions, and the land in the third direction is up for sale just a mile from us.

Everybody's situation is different. You gotta figure 4 families will have to bug out for every family situated well enough to stay. The trick is getting those 4 families hooked up with the one family on good ground to defend.
 

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know the area around by hunting it( me about 27 years.) know water sources, food plots for animals carry .22 sub sonics for quietness to get meat.
history will teach you hit run, hit run to safe areas.
but as your enemy hunts you he learns the areas too, so the first few months must develop a fear at night, fear in the day in the superior forces mind.
that fear itself makes it difficult for new people to learn areas firstly for fear of surprise situations, booby traps. hazing, pot shots at ranking leaders in patrols, wounding to tie up personnel. while not ever showing the amount of fire power or men available at the Task at hand.
some of the same tactics used in Bosnia,Afghanistan, and the American revolution against a superior force demoralize, and snipe with few shots as possible, frustrate, blend in and wait patiently.
it isn't the size of the fighting force that wins the war its the fight in the force that sizes up its enemy that wins the battles that leads up to the winning of the war.<><
 

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I agree with alden . I think the author is imagining the

golden horde to be well disciplined and trained . If this were true it would indeed

be a rare situation. A few earnest rounds in their direction

would more than likely cause a desire to leave the 'sour grapes' behind

but say 'they' were determined and skilled what are you going to do

sit around and not put up a fight ? If you run they'll shoot you in the back

if you bug out you wont last long.

Creating a small community is the best idea for survival

and when there is danger posting outlying watchmen

would be a necessity


my 2 american pennies


fiveshot
 

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I doubt most of us gray haired folks will get deployed to Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan any time soon. Lets just conjure up an absolute WORST scenario, say, the traitors in DC decide to give all the federal lands to China to repay THEIR debt, the chinese begin to relocate, hmmm?,,, 500,000,000 of their population HERE! Add to that a significant UN multi national force to back up the move. Besides, I don't hoard ammo. Before the last election I figured around 1500 to 2000 rounds for practice and competition x 8 possible years and I figured I should have an appropriate ammount on hand prior to the bad news.
 

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I doubt most of us gray haired folks will get deployed to Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan any time soon. Lets just conjure up an absolute WORST scenario, say, the traitors in DC decide to give all the federal lands to China to repay THEIR debt, the chinese begin to relocate, hmmm?,,, 500,000,000 of their population HERE! Add to that a significant UN multi national force to back up the move.
The Feds won't let the people use any of that land anyway so why not? 500,000,000 Chinese would no doubt put it to productive use. The economy would soar and we would all be richer in spite of who we were collectively dumb enough to elect.
 

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You guys scare the stuffing out of me - we won't sell or allow use to Americans of Fed held land - but we would trade for WalMart?

I must be missing something that I am willing to back up.

:)
 

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Lew, how can that surprise you? The federal government gives rights and benefits to illegal aliens that they deny to hardworking citizens now. It’s not that much of a stretch.
 

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A few good men and a decent fortification will repel all boarders, Blackhawk Down was a real story and they killed plenty of aggressors before they finally lost.(they only had a downed chopper to hide behind) If you intend to survive a worst case scenario, you better get trained on spear throwing, slingshot, and crossbow, improvised small animal traps, etc. Any noise, even a .22 subsonic, will possibly be your downfall. If you have a big enough group, you can say, "here we are muther flunker, come and meet my little friend", if not, best to be undetectable.
 

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I have no desire to join a secret underground militia ... seems a little too radical tin-foil hat to me but ... preparing for what appears to be an inevitable collapse, secession, civil war is becoming a logical train of thought few would reasonable men would have entertained just a couple years ago.
Now, I seriously ponder retirement to a deep south rural location where land is cheap and plentiful and community is strong and self reliant, to escape the death trap of the northeast megalopolis that would quickly deteriorate to a cannibalistic state if SHTF.

Is anyone actively organizing "communities" where like minded people are gathering and planning means for their own salvation and survival if it all goes to hell in a hand basket?
It would seem a logical idea for some type of forum where said "organizers" could slyly post advertisement for local real estate sales within their zone of influence and recruit suitable new inhabitants based upon their skills, knowledge, abilities and resources. Building such a "community", of like minded people who could band together and provide all the required and necessary skills to support themselves isn't such a far fetched idea.

When bartering will replace worthless paper money
When medicine will be limited, local and personal
When protection and defense will come down to the individuals on hand
When food will be what's grown and raised within reach
All the things our ancestors accomplished to forage the great unknown frontiers of the nation when it was in its infancy and survive by banding together for mutual support, skills we have long ago lost.

I consider myself to have useful skills and knowledge to fit a cog on that wheel. The quest is finding the right place to go and re-settle.
Anyone else thinking along the same lines?
 

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A few good men and a decent fortification will repel all boarders, Blackhawk Down was a real story and they killed plenty of aggressors before they finally lost.(they only had a downed chopper to hide behind) If you intend to survive a worst case scenario, you better get trained on spear throwing, slingshot, and crossbow, improvised small animal traps, etc. Any noise, even a .22 subsonic, will possibly be your downfall. If you have a big enough group, you can say, "here we are muther flunker, come and meet my little friend", if not, best to be undetectable.
Sorry but a few good men will not repel all boarders...it will simply end up being your Dien Bien Phu...not trying to be an a-hole here but that is reality...there will be no best case Khe Sahn scenario without a constant aerial resupply of men, food, ammo, weapons etc....yes some types "boarders" will and can be repeled but as I mentioned above a cooridinated attack by well armed tactically trained adversaries for a sustained period of time will overrun even the best of fortifications...the Vietnamese, Afghans etc. understood/understand this...I'm not by any means saying to anyone here to not prepare for the worst...just dont fall into the mindset of impenetrable defenses...
 
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