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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have an IDF marked M1951 that comes with an enigma. The barrel has a '74 date stamp. The slide is a replacement dated 1991, which is 8 years after production stopped. DocAV gave me some information that as late as 2003 Beretta was still refurbishing these. The question is: how long did Israel keep these in service? The slide also has Israel property marks, so they must have refurbished it themselves with replacement parts.
Was the Israeli government still using these as late as 1991? Did they reassign them to LEO?









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Hate to leave you hanging, but I can't really answer most of what you're asking. I was in the IDF in the 1980s and there were some 951s still available, but pistols are used very rarely in the IDF and I wasn't in one of "those" units. I did participate in a couple of "let's see how long this Helwan lasts with Uzi ammo" parties, but never with a Beretta. I am pretty sure, however, that the IDF Berettas were not handed down to the police.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, J.C. Were there units (Logistics, M.P., Supply, etc) that were only issued pistols? Perhaps a few were kept for 'behind the lines' units?
Or were officers issued sidearms? Perhaps this guy was used in OCS for training or just one career officer who wasn't going to let go of it until retirement?

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Hate to leave you hanging, but I can't really answer most of what you're asking. I was in the IDF in the 1980s and there were some 951s still available, but pistols are used very rarely in the IDF and I wasn't in one of "those" units. I did participate in a couple of "let's see how long this Helwan lasts with Uzi ammo" parties, but never with a Beretta. I am pretty sure, however, that the IDF Berettas were not handed down to the police.
Don't leave us hanging please, how long did they last? What finally gave up on them?
 

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"Were there units (Logistics, M.P., Supply, etc) that were only issued pistols? Perhaps a few were kept for 'behind the lines' units?"
No, not really. Perhaps a few MPs, and maybe some tank commanders. Lots of guys carried their own pistols. I always had my old Radom in my combat vest.

"Or were officers issued sidearms?"
No, unless for a special duty. The only one I ever heard of was when a friend was assigned to UN liaison in Lebanon. He was a private who got to wear officers tabs, and he was issued an old Enfield .38 to look "officerly".
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Then, hell! I don't know how or why this 951 would still be in IDF inventory into the 90's? It was not just archived, it went through a repair/refurbishment at some point after 1991.


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Then, hell! I don't know how or why this 951 would still be in IDF inventory into the 90's? It was not just archived, it went through a repair/refurbishment at some point after 1991.


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I'm not surprised.

I recall doing arms room inventories around 1999 and finding equipment issued to the unit as early as 1968. Probably never issued, either; they were starlight scopes. WAAAAY obsolete, taking up space, complete with mounts and vintage cases, and faithfully accounted for by serial number every month for thirty years. When we deployed, my platoon's M2 had a manufacture date of 1943, by the GE Refrigerator Division... Frigidaire!

IDF is not the US Army, but never underestimate the inertia of military bureaucracy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ah well, I guess that I'll never know what my 1974/1991, Tzahal stamped Beretta M951 was doing in the IDF long after it's cousins were retired.



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Why do you think others were "retired"? My friend was issued his .38 Enfield in 1986 or 87. If they were still functional there would be no reason to take them out of service.
 

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Don't leave us hanging please, how long did they last? What finally gave up on them?
FWIW: During OIF2 when reconstituting the Iraqi security forces, my partner Iraq battalion refused to use their Tariq's after 2 pistols destructed from heavy use. Ie, this consisted of lots of transition drills and CQB pistol drills with a 1 week flat range involving say, minimum 300-500 rounds per pistol per week with less during the shoot house week. Ammo tended to be standard M882. Iraqi ammo was either not available or unreliable. I could have (and should have! also didnt take any pics of it) kept one of the Tariqs that blew (it was left in compound during handover and since it was no longer a "firearm" but merely a hunk of metal, it was allowed for bringback, however, at the time I could have cared less with souvenirs). Both pistols slides broke apart on both sides at the ejection port, the locking blocks were broken in several places, and IIRC, at least one of the frames was damaged but more or less intact. As I recall, at least one of the barrels ruptured on the left and bottom chamber areas. Regardless, the Iraqi troops refused to use them anymore due to the danger of injury and demanded M9s, Glocks, SIGs, etc Whatever, but not Iraqi...or, for that matter, any old Soviet pistols such as Makarov's, Tokarev's, etc. Round count before we started using them was unknown but all were used and not NIB and it happened fairly early in the deployment so it was probably less than say, 3000 to 5000 rounds thru the pistols.
BLUF: I would not trust a Tariq except for a paperweight. Over the course of time and probably sooner rather than later IIRC, many Iraqi (and Afghan units for that matter) tended to be issued NIB Glocks and SIGs, just to name a few, I also recall seeing polymer S&W's.
I have no experience with a Beretta M1951 but I have seen literally scores of broken M9 locking blocks (of which the M1951 design is based upon - and its parent the P38) in a training battalion and thus, also do not trust or prefer the M9 for combat (Also, recall the reason USASFC requested the upgraded 'Brigadier' slide which had increased mass near the locking block area...it was because the slides cracked due to inability to withstand high round count service life-performance the M9 was probably not envisioned to undergo since the original design spec only called for a service life of 10000rounds; the M9 has many limitations and IMO is not rugged enough for a combat pistol, although it is quite accurate)...but thats another issue.

See:
http://www.beretta.com/en-us/92g-sd/
 

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I never saw the Tariqs, only the Hipowers. But the same thing, the Iraqi officers wanted new Glocks. So thats what they got.

It would be interesting to know when these Berettas went into Israeli service as Im sure they have a storied history.
 
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