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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Heck I just started reloading about a month ago.Then I started casting bullets &
that's a kick.

But I just don't like kicking back the powder,to slow the bullet down & the lose
of energy you must give up with a lead bullet with just lube.It does not make
any sense to me to slow a bullet down from say 2600 fps to 1600 fps just
to keep lead out of the bore.

A guy just as well shoot black powder & I have done that.It's fun you bet but
my Milsurps were not made to be pee shooters.

So now it's paper jackets.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm What's next?:p
 

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Heck I just started reloading about a month ago.Then I started casting bullets &
that's a kick.

But I just don't like kicking back the powder,to slow the bullet down & the lose
of energy you must give up with a lead bullet with just lube.It does not make
any sense to me to slow a bullet down from say 2600 fps to 1600 fps just
to keep lead out of the bore.

A guy just as well shoot black powder & I have done that.It's fun you bet but
my Milsurps were not made to be pee shooters.

So now it's paper jackets.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm What's next?:p
Fly. You don't have to slow your bullets down that much to keep from leading the bore. It is advisable to use gas checks for any highpower rifle cartridge. Most say anything over 1800fps should be checked. Remember bullet fit to groove also. If your bullet isn't fitting to the bore, it really doesn't matter what alloy you are using, how hard it is or the speed. You will probably get leading. Never tried paper patching, and I am sure, from all I have read, it works. Just makes sense.
All depends on what you are looking for from your weapons. You may find some of them shoot much better when slowed down a bit. You may find some of them like really hot loads.
Don't get caught up in to much to quickly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
A Rat theres a guy over there on the web site you turned me on thats really in to paper jackets.He said its just
a jacket as is copper a jacket.

It's like the read above,copper jacket's came into play with the coming of the war.These paper one work really well
so far.
You need to try it my friend
Fly
 

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Who said your limited to 1600 fps with cast with regular lube and a gas check? Yes accuracy is easier to get at the lower speeds 16-1900 fps ,but it can also be had at 2200 fps too,and add a 210 gr bullet to say a 30-06 and you have a pretty powerful load.The 30-30 and 32 spl among others can be loaded to easily equal fastory jacketed loads with good accuracy. Accuracy is just harder to acheive at higher vel. with cast But its no limit.If your just starting out and asked for advice as you have done recently I would have been foolish to tell you to go load your first cast loads to near jacketed vel. as I know what the outcome would have been .


Tim
 

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Fly

What those other guys said. Cast bullets can be shot at reasonable velocities if you use the correct design.

The reason that most cast bullets are shot at low velocities is because they are usually used in the older cartridges and in the older rifles that have to be limited to lower pressures. And, even when used in modern rifles, the low to medium velocity loads are often the most accurate.

Ray
 

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Folks, I make paper patch bullet swaging dies. That's what I have been up to for the last two weeks, and part of why I haven't been posting. (That and the dirty amateur socialist who absconded with my laptop, that is....) If you'll dig out the old NRA articles from the early 1960s, the paper patched bullet, loaded with a cast linotype slug, can be fired from a .300 magnum at full velocity with no leading. I paper patch for the .30-40 Krag, mostly because the long neck on that one and the .30-30, which is another nice one for paper patched slugs, gives excellent accuracy and doesn't irk my arthritis too terribly. I paper patch for the 8x57. The neck is a little short, but it gives good accuracy.

I have paper patched regular cast bullets with teflon tape, and that also works pretty well, though I never tried it out of any of the Magnum rifles. It did just fine out of the .30-06, though.
 

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I have paper patched regular cast bullets with teflon tape, and that also works pretty well, though I never tried it out of any of the Magnum rifles. It did just fine out of the .30-06, though.
Teflon tape. Now I can see how that would work. Since I have been reading a lot about paper patching lately and can understand the concept of how it works, I have a question. Since the paper jacket, or the use of teflon, is adding to the diameter of the bullet, do you still go with a bullet .001 to .002 over groove size or do you need to size them smaller? The normal sheet of paper measures around .003. If you wrap a bullet, that is already .002 oversized, just one wrap of paper would give you a diameter over by .005. If you put one wrap of teflon, the end result diameter would be even larger. I understand the wrap is going to cover the bullet when being driven through the bore and cause less alloy to steel contact, although I don't believe all is stopped. I just don't quite get the idea that it is any better than a good bullet lube, with proper bullet fit.
To me it just seems that paper, or whatever, is not going to cover the whole bullet when driving through the lands and grooves better than a good lube. Just my thoughts.
I'm going to have to read up a little more about paper patching.
 

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a rat,
I have the same questions as you but I think your math is a little off. If the paper is .003" thick and you wrap it around the bullet you are adding .006" to the diameter not .003" because it's .003 per side.
 

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a rat,
I have the same questions as you but I think your math is a little off. If the paper is .003" thick and you wrap it around the bullet you are adding .006" to the diameter not .003" because it's .003 per side.

Ahh. I stand corrected. Forgot to double thickness to the diameter.
 

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Paper patched bullet is .300" for a .308" bore. When you put a damp paper patch on, you draw it down to .002" by the time it dries, and your patch will go around the bullet exactly twice. There is a lot of this info over on cast boolits, and a step by step mode on it. For a .311" bore, you use a .303" bullet. For 8x57, .315 or .316". It really helps if you have somebody who can show you what you are about the first time you go into this. Teflon is pulled taut over a cast bullet and then run through the sizer die, with only the one layer of tape on it.
 

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.300" for a .308" bore
If you use drafting vellum, it is good to have AT LEAST three thousands on each side. Four thou on each side is even better, which is why I am excited about these dies, Optimist. Do you have a drawing of the the profiles?

In my experience no lube/grease can match a jacket in a long barrel. This is because there is simply insufficiently groove volume to carry enough lube down the long barrel. Even Lee Liquid Alox which is supposed to coat the entire bullet has always caused leading, usually near to muzzle, in long barrels.

If lube was as good as jackets, then there wouldn't be jackets. Before the jacket was the patched round ball, and this period was known to have celebrated accuracy--shooting was a popular activity. Then the cartridge was invented; it took off in the handgun right away. Accuracy didn't matter too much at those short distances, but it always struck me as odd how this period had notoriously poor accuracy with rifles and it took a long time before people stopped using their muskets/muzzloader rifles. This was the lubed/naked bullet period. It got so bad that organizations like the NRA came to be to promote general marksmanship. The Germanic influence of the early NRA is evident, many of the people coming from the paper-jacketing Schutzen style rifle shooter traditions (the best traditions of the day). The Gilding metal jacket of Eduard Rubin came about, eventually combined with smokeless powder in a modern bottlenecked narrow diameter bullet cartridge--the Lebel, which shocked the world. I see this as the fulfillment of the metallic cartridge's potential. We haven't got much better since.

To me it is clear that bullets work best when wrapped in something. This is for some basic physical reasons. Lead is a cheap, dense metal that has been used to make bullets because it offers good external ballistics and economy. Unfortunately lead-steel contact of the barrel has negative consequences. Lead is soft and is torn off by any little burr or edge on the rifling in the barrel. LEADING. Wrapping the bullet in something provides a physical interface so the lead and steel do not touch, preventing leading. Lubricants do not isolate surfaces from each other, they merely reduce the frictional coefficients between surfaces. The reason why there is no "perfect lube" and so many people waste so much time fiddling with trying to concoct some magic bullet lube for a given load is largely due to the fact that there cannot be a perfect lube because no lubricant can do what is necessary--isolating the steel from the lead.
 

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Shooter. I understand your post and believe me I am not nit picking here, just trying to get a better understanding, if I ever decide to go the patched route.
You stated that, lead is soft and is torn off by any little burr or edge on the rifling in the barrel. Which of course would cause leading issues. Wouldn't the paper jacket be torn off from this burr or edge also exposing the unlubed lead to the rifling?
If I would get into jacketing, it would be for my 8x57 Mauser. From the info here, I would have to buy another mold and or, sizer for the bullets to get them smaller. Would a mold that dropped at .312 (or a bullet that can be sized to .312) with a triple wrap of paper work? Like the Lee for the 7.62x39. Light bullet though. They also make one for the 7.65 Argentine that is supposed to drop at .312. Heavier at 185gr. Looks much like my Lee cast 8mm 175gr. bullet. I don't see anything in my Midway catalog that gives a bullet at or around .315-.316.
Another question. If the bullet is a little undersized, but patched, how does that effect leading and accuracy?
 

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Wouldn't the paper jacket be torn off from this burr or edge also exposing the unlubed lead to the rifling?
No. The buffeting of he paper jacket by jets of gas upon exit of the muzzle tears it off the bullet. I have recovered nearly intact parellogram strips of paper about two yards in front of my rifles that had been fired. Some shredding can occur, but the paper is kept in place until it leaves the barrel. If the paper is torn through before you put it in the barrel that is another story.

Would a mold that dropped at .312 (or a bullet that can be sized to .312) with a triple wrap of paper work? Like the Lee for the 7.62x39.
Yes. It works great. A .308 or .310 can be wrapped up to a .323 or .328 easily. I wish the 8x56R guys would catch onto this!

Another question. If the bullet is a little undersized, but patched, how does that effect leading and accuracy?
I have found that bullets that are a little undersized (about 4 thousands) are ideal. The worst situation is to take a full diameter casting, have to size it down, then paper jacket it, then size it again. Two sizers are necessary and it is a PITA. I buy .309 molds for my x54 Paper jackets. I buy .313 molds for my 8mm paper jackets. I wish they made a .425 or .426 mold for my 44 mag!
 

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No. The buffeting of he paper jacket by jets of gas upon exit of the muzzle tears it off the bullet. I have recovered nearly intact parellogram strips of paper about two yards in front of my rifles that had been fired. Some shredding can occur, but the paper is kept in place until it leaves the barrel. If the paper is torn through before you put it in the barrel that is another story.



Yes. It works great. A .308 or .310 can be wrapped up to a .323 or .328 easily. I wish the 8x56R guys would catch onto this!



I have found that bullets that are a little undersized (about 4 thousands) are ideal. The worst situation is to take a full diameter casting, have to size it down, then paper jacket it, then size it again. Two sizers are necessary and it is a PITA. I buy .309 molds for my x54 Paper jackets. I buy .313 molds for my 8mm paper jackets. I wish they made a .425 or .426 mold for my 44 mag!
Seems like a lot of work, and expense.
 

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Guys, thanks for a great thread. I'm getting back into reloading after a couple of decades. I want to work up a load for a MKIV Martini Henry, and patching seems like what they did 'back in the day'.

Where can I go to get the entry level, paper patching 101 lesson?

Thanks!
 

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