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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A shop near me has a 98az dated 1915 and made by Erfurt.Looks like it is all there, not all numbers match, it has a g33/40 bolt which matches itself, wood is ok, kind of on the light side(color) metal is mostly patina.It has a second date of 1920 at the top of the reciever.

I am not able to get pics, I don't want to insult the guy and was thinkin about offering 300, am I in the ballpark or is it even worth that considering the bolt it has? Bore is dirty but looks like it would clean up.
 

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I would offer $300, that seems very reasonable. I don't keep watch on such things, but if a K98k bolt can fetch ~$150 at times I'm sure a G 33/40 bolt could be sold for at least $150, maybe more. Certainly enough to buy a regular K98 bolt, which were actually checkered on the inside.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the info, the bolt looks to have been scrubbed of all markings, where as a 98az bolt is checkered on the underside or flat, this one is hollow.I was thinkin it was a G33/40 I could be wrong.It looks like the bolt in this picture,
 

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Look for a unit marking, the take down, and buttplate, the right markings can make this a good deal. Also look for markings on the buttstock, right side usually, but look it over close, - PwB, EWB, odd ordnance stamps, all could make or break a rifle evaluation.

The 1920 is a property marking, it means nothing really, doesn't hurt or help value, just means it was in the governments hands 1920-1921, nothing else (nothing to do with Versailles or the IAMCC etc..). Stock condition is key to value, but at $300 you can hardly go wrong. Generally $300 is a good deal for any Kar98a, that isn't Turked or altered by another country or sportsman.

The bolt, if 33/40 is worth a lot more than a typical 98k bolt, at least $150 if original, but it should have some markings, including a fireproof and serial on the handle. If it is scrubbed, then it isn't worth much imo.
 

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Double date WW1 rifles were part of the Weimer Republic (in that sense a property mark) allowed military (100,000 men). Yes, under the treaty! Don't know where you get your info but not correct. Always rebuilt rifles, usually with m/m, forced matched parts. However G33/40 bolt would not be correct, even in a re-build for obvious reason.
 

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LorneD, Whatever your expertise is in, besides snide remarks and uninformed commentary, it isn't in German military rifles.

Yes, my comments are correct, and had you bothered to study the subject in any depth you wouldn't have posted. The 1920 property mark was to differentiate rifles in government hands, from those illegally in civilian hands, during the German governments attempt to gain control over the unrest in Germany (to remove military weapons in civilian hands, and prevent soldiers and the like from turning in rifles for the rewards offered). This occurred in a short span of time, and had no other purpose.

Although the effort was demanded by the events that took place at the Spa conference, the IAMCC had nothing to do with the orders or confiscation. Later they did take over the seized arms and supervised the destruction but played no other part. The IAMCC was an oversight organization, they did not disarm or do anything except oversee and report- the power the IAMCC had was in the consequence of violations they reported. The further occupation of Germany, or lengthening the stay and some incidental penalties they could impose.

The rifles are always rebuilt because they stayed in government hands, none were reworked in 1920, and like all rifles they had a life expectancy and naturally had to be repaired and rebuilt. The fact that the Germans had 367,000+ rifles officially in Police & Army hands (reported at Spa by Seeckt – well over a million if you include militia) shows that this has nothing to do with the 100,000 man Army (which during Spa was well over the 100,000 man mark anyway) it also shows that most of the “1920” property marked rifles were later destroyed, as Germany eventually met the imposed levels, which BTW was more than 100,000 rifles (100,000 was never the limit in rifles, initially it was 102,000 rifles, later increased to 150,000 - the KM had 15k men, not sure their rifle situation offhand).

The IAMCC did not inventory the rifles, keep track of rifles in the sense of record keeping, nor did they inspect rifles in any systematic way. The IAMCC was a rather small force, largely confined to Berlin, and was always escorted by German police or military during inspections, often for their own safety. After 1925 they were practically meaningless, long before they left Germany in January 1927

Lastly, - I never post unless I am familiar with the topic. You might consider trying that out yourself. Most of this information is readily available, Jan Still’s Weimar book has a good overview, Görtz unit marking book translates some of the orders, and in the MRJ I wrote extensively about this, including a copy of the original order. Much of this is common knowledge on the P08 forums, and this has been covered in this forum as well a number of times.

Double date WW1 rifles were part of the Weimer Republic (in that sense a property mark) allowed military (100,000 men). Yes, under the treaty! Don't know where you get your info but not correct. Always rebuilt rifles, usually with m/m, forced matched parts. However G33/40 bolt would not be correct, even in a re-build for obvious reason.
 

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LorneD, Whatever your expertise is in, besides snide remarks and uninformed commentary, it isn't in German military rifles.

Yes, my comments are correct, and had you bothered to study the subject in any depth you wouldn't have posted. The 1920 property mark was to differentiate rifles in government hands, from those illegally in civilian hands, during the German governments attempt to gain control over the unrest in Germany (to remove military weapons in civilian hands, and prevent soldiers and the like from turning in rifles for the rewards offered). This occurred in a short span of time, and had no other purpose.

Although the effort was demanded by the events that took place at the Spa conference, the IAMCC had nothing to do with the orders or confiscation. Later they did take over the seized arms and supervised the destruction but played no other part. The IAMCC was an oversight organization, they did not disarm or do anything except oversee and report- the power the IAMCC had was in the consequence of violations they reported. The further occupation of Germany, or lengthening the stay and some incidental penalties they could impose.

The rifles are always rebuilt because they stayed in government hands, none were reworked in 1920, and like all rifles they had a life expectancy and naturally had to be repaired and rebuilt. The fact that the Germans had 367,000+ rifles officially in Police & Army hands (reported at Spa by Seeckt – well over a million if you include militia) shows that this has nothing to do with the 100,000 man Army (which during Spa was well over the 100,000 man mark anyway) it also shows that most of the “1920” property marked rifles were later destroyed, as Germany eventually met the imposed levels, which BTW was more than 100,000 rifles (100,000 was never the limit in rifles, initially it was 102,000 rifles, later increased to 150,000 - the KM had 15k men, not sure their rifle situation offhand).

The IAMCC did not inventory the rifles, keep track of rifles in the sense of record keeping, nor did they inspect rifles in any systematic way. The IAMCC was a rather small force, largely confined to Berlin, and was always escorted by German police or military during inspections, often for their own safety. After 1925 they were practically meaningless, long before they left Germany in January 1927

Lastly, - I never post unless I am familiar with the topic. You might consider trying that out yourself. Most of this information is readily available, Jan Still’s Weimar book has a good overview, Görtz unit marking book translates some of the orders, and in the MRJ I wrote extensively about this, including a copy of the original order. Much of this is common knowledge on the P08 forums, and this has been covered in this forum as well a number of times.

Good and accurate information, and well stated. Thank you Paul.
 

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Simson,
Excellent post as usual. Thank you
 

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Hello Gents,

Great info and a great idea!

Paul, if you would be interested in editing your response above into a general info format, any one of the mods here would be happy to "sticky" above.

We are very fortunate in having a broad cross section of extremely knowledgeable regulars here on the Mauser Forum. This information would be beneficial for everyone who frequents this site.

Thank you for suggesting this Wapruf2.

Warmest regards,

JPS
 

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CB, TP, JPS, & Heirmossy, thanks

I wrote up a brief overview regarding the Spa conference and the "Disarmingof the Peoples Act", with a brief outline of the IAMCC. I also included a list for further reading and resources:



The 1920 Property Mark

At the end of World War I, after an orderly retreat to the Armistice line, the German Army largely fell apart, many soldiers heading home, often taking their small arms with them. Equipment of all sorts was “lost” on this retreat, artillery and mortars to small arms. The ensuing chaos in Germany, between opposing factions (right and left), often created impossible conditions in Germany that the government was barely able to contain.

Much of this came to a head at the Spa Conference, during July 1920 in Belgium. The German delegation was berated for allowing such chaos to continue, and during the “interrogation” General Seeckt (head of the Reichswehr) matter of factly stated the small arms situation:

The German Army at the time of the Armistice had 6,000,000 rifles, during the retreat she lost 1,500,000 rifles and had delivered over to the Entente 1,690,000. He also stated that the German Army held 250,000 rifles, the Police 117,000, and the Militia 600,000. Lloyd George reportedly flew into a rage over this, but Seeckt ignored his outburst and continued his report. Simply stating the Army’s position was to abide by the terms as soon as they could collect the missing and excess arms (rifles were the least of the worries, missing MG’s and artillery were much more of a concern). He suggested this would take up to a year.

While these figures remained in dispute (Lloyd George suspected more were unaccounted for), Lloyd George essentially agreed to the plans the German government outlined, - this would become the “The Disarming of the People Act”, which goal was simply to entice as many Germans as possible into surrendering the illegal military arms in their hands, and curtailing the ongoing violence. Rewards and amnesty were the first offerings, and eventually just amnesty from criminal prosecution.

Before the German government could implement this law and buy back program, they had to identify weapons in government hands, from those illegally held, so as to not encourage further thefts for the offered rewards. They decided to mark all weapons currently in government hands with a “1920” marking starting in August 1920. This was done by the individual units, depots, organizations, and that is why the markings vary as to application and style.

The program started on September 15, 1920, and lasted until November 1, 1920, and was later extended to February 1921. The law required all German civilians to surrender all “military” weapons in their possession.

The rewards offered ranged from a high of $2,350 US dollars (paid in RM) for artillery pieces, to $23.50 for each rifle. The terms of the rewards demanded quick surrender, full rewards only paid through October 10th, half rewards followed until October 20th, and after that the surrender only guaranteed amnesty from prosecution. The results of the law were disappointing, some large seizures were made due to informants selling out others, and some surprising hauls were made, but not surprisingly, most of the illegal arms were held by organizations and groups who had plans for them, and were not enticed to letting them go for mere petty change and amnesty.

The German government did surrender massive amount of arms, as Seeckt promised. By January 13, 1921 alone, almost 30,000 artillery pieces and barrels, 10,000 mortars, 70,000 MG’s and nearly 3 million rifles had been surrendered or destroyed under supervision. By 1922 most of the armament demands (arms in excess of Versailles and subsequent agreements) were met and in general Germany was essentially disarmed of all offensive capability.

The Interallied Military Control Commission (IAMCC) was the oversight body that conducted inspections of facilities, granted clearance permits, which allowed firms to resume business once inspected, supervised destruction of war materials and generally oversaw the enforcement of the terms of the treaty. It was not the force or authority that was responsible for disarmament, or conducted any disarmament measures, rather they ensured compliance and reported to their superiors on German compliance. These reports were very important to the German government, as they were the basis of whether continued occupation of the Rhineland, after the agreed time of withdraw, was to be undertaken, worse a further expansion of the occupied areas could result from non-compliance. (The importance of this cannot be overstated- the 1925 withdraws didn’t happen due to IAMCC reports on German industry and police).
The Germans had IAMCC counterparts, they worked with the IAMCC and were the ones that did the disarmament measures, supervised and certified by the IAMCC. The IAMCC itself was a small force, and never reached its originally planned size, which was in part due to the United States pulling out of the treaty and disarmament efforts (The United States came to terms with Germany separately, never participated in the IAMCC, nor did it ratify the Versailles Treaty). A small force of less than 1200 men (mostly British, French and Belgians, but some Italians and Japanese), usually much smaller, they did not have the ability undertake large scale inspections or record keeping of rifles or soldiers, needless to say look in every basement or wall for hidden rifles. The goal of the IAMCC was to ensure German compliance, most importantly in German industry, military establishments (depots, barracks, fortifications) and to try and monitor the effectives clauses of the Versailles Treaty (numbers of potential soldiers available – mostly hidden amongst the Police and paramilitary formations).

The IAMCC only role in the Disarming of the Peoples Act was in supervising the destruction of the surrendered arms, at approved locations, which began in October 1920.

Further Reading and Resources:


MRJ # 200 June 2010, pages 19-27
German Small Arms Markings, by Joachim Görtz & Don Bryans
Weimar Lugers, by Jan Still
AEF Summary of Information November 22, 1918 (comments on German withdrawal)
German Army Order For Demobilization, Ministry of War December 5, 1918 (AEF Bulletin March 5, 1919)
History of the First World War, Purnell/BPC Publishing
Army Ordnance May/June 1931
German Disarmament After World War I, by Richard J Shuster
The Luger Story, by John Walter
The Navy Luger by Joachim Görtz & John Walter
The Politics of Law and Order: A History of the Bavarian Einwohnerwehr 1918-1921 by David Large Clay
 

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An excellent overview. Thanks again Paul. Thanks for the sticky on this TP. I need to read it a few times and this makes it convenient.
 

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Thanks SimsonSuhl. That's the most comprehensive explanation of this I've come across. Excellent idea making this a sticky.
 
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