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Diamond Bullet Member and the Revered Sir Jim
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Unrated seaman. Sent to sea without A school, usually dumped into 1st division, get to choose a rating and learn it through an apprenticeship program.
 

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OJT.....its come to this ? I'm not a Squid so I can't speak with any measure of expertise but I take a dim view of
sending untrained personnel aboard a ship because a ship that leaves port is operational...everything they do at sea
is seriously requiring skills as a crew. Ships leave port and go in harms way...facing the sea and whatever military
challenges that become necessary. Its not like a Infantry Company going to the back end of Ft. Bragg and training
with some new troops assigned in the unit...coming out of basic training only 40 percent trained in mandatory tasks.
If that Infantry company gets alerted for a mission, it can leave behind untrained / unsuitable troops and move out.

Ship at sea with untrained personnel aboard, what happens if disaster strikes or the ship is sent into combat operations.

The very least we owe men & women is to be trained before they arrive at their unit / ship. The Army half trains and its highly corrosive to the gaining unit which then has to make up for that slack and that degrades readiness. On a crew deployed at sea , untrained personnel aboard ....this does not pass my smell test.
 

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OJT.....its come to this ? I'm not a Squid so I can't speak with any measure of expertise but I take a dim view of
sending untrained personnel aboard a ship because a ship that leaves port is operational...everything they do at sea
is seriously requiring skills as a crew. Ships leave port and go in harms way...facing the sea and whatever military
challenges that become necessary. Its not like a Infantry Company going to the back end of Ft. Bragg and training
with some new troops assigned in the unit...coming out of basic training only 40 percent trained in mandatory tasks.
If that Infantry company gets alerted for a mission, it can leave behind untrained / unsuitable troops and move out.

Ship at sea with untrained personnel aboard, what happens if disaster strikes or the ship is sent into combat operations.

The very least we owe men & women is to be trained before they arrive at their unit / ship. The Army half trains and its highly corrosive to the gaining unit which then has to make up for that slack and that degrades readiness. On a crew deployed at sea , untrained personnel aboard ....this does not pass my smell test.
Most new sailors undergo advanced training, for the job that they will do, through "A" school, at least. For the ones who go directly to the fleet, they are basically the Naval equivalent of "apprentices." They work, closely supervised by old salts who teach them the ropes. It is a tradition that goes back thousands of years. A ship is manned by highly skilled, semi skilled, and limited skilled sailors; The highly skilled supervise the semi-skilled and the limited skilled sailors keep the decks polished and bright-work shining. the system works well.

I will say this, I did go through two post boot-camp schools and when I got to the fleet, I still didn't know crap about how things really worked, and I still worked closely supervised by "old salts" some of whom were 23 or 24 years old. There is nothing like on the job training.
 

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Guys, short changing training costs lives. I was fully trained before sent to Viet Nam. I was not sent there and
put in a OJT / Discovery Learning scenario with my life and others being put in the equation till I got trained or killed.

We cannot and should not expect our NCO's to pull up the slack of a service that tries to Cheap Charlie basic and MOS training .

I am not a Squid so I'll defer to those that are , but as a Infantry soldier, basic and advanced training is not an elective !
 

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Diamond Bullet Member and the Revered Sir Jim
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Unrated seaman. Sent to sea without A school, usually dumped into 1st division, get to choose a rating and learn it through an apprenticeship program.
Thanks ! The Navy did not have this when I was in 1966-69.
 

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Guys, short changing training costs lives. I was fully trained before sent to Viet Nam. I was not sent there and
put in a OJT / Discovery Learning scenario with my life and others being put in the equation till I got trained or killed.

We cannot and should not expect our NCO's to pull up the slack of a service that tries to Cheap Charlie basic and MOS training .

I am not a Squid so I'll defer to those that are , but as a Infantry soldier, basic and advanced training is not an elective !
Shipboard duty and the life of an infantryman are two different things. Ships don't go to sea with untrained crews.

Sailors, are, for the most part, technicians and fire fighters. (everyone is trained as a fire fighter) There are, however, some housekeeping duties that do not require a lot of skills or pre-ship training. There is a lot of paint chipping, deck scrubbing and food preparation on a ship. As a technician I was in school eight hours a day, five days a week, for about five months after boot camp. Some schools are much longer. What is necessary for non-technicians is learned in boot camp. Training aboard ship never stops for anyone. At sea, there is nothing to do but man your job, keep watches, train or sleep (in that order). You are on call 24/7/365. 16 hour work days are not infrequent. You don't go home at 4:00, there are no weekend liberties, no beer, and no sleeping in. It doesn't take long for an E1 in a non-technical position to come up to speed. The proof of the Navy's system is that it is rare indeed that you hear about U.S. Navy disasters at sea. Nor do any other navies of the world want to go head to head with Uncle Sam's sailors.
 

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Diamond Bullet Member and the Revered Sir Jim
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Shipboard duty and the life of an infantryman are two different things. Ships don't go to sea with untrained crews.

Sailors, are, for the most part, technicians and fire fighters. (everyone is trained as a fire fighter) There are, however, some housekeeping duties that do not require a lot of skills or pre-ship training. There is a lot of paint chipping, deck scrubbing and food preparation on a ship. As a technician I was in school eight hours a day, five days a week, for about five months after boot camp. Some schools are much longer. What is necessary for non-technicians is learned in boot camp. Training aboard ship never stops for anyone. At sea, there is nothing to do but man your job, keep watches, train or sleep (in that order). You are on call 24/7/365. 16 hour work days are not infrequent. You don't go home at 4:00, there are no weekend liberties, no beer, and no sleeping in. It doesn't take long for an E1 in a non-technical position to come up to speed. The proof of the Navy's system is that it is rare indeed that you hear about U.S. Navy disasters at sea. Nor do any other navies of the world want to go head to head with Uncle Sam's sailors.
Let me be very clear to you, I never said nor nuanced the US Navy was not competent nor unable to do its mission. We do have a Navy, other nations...not so much. One has to wonder though, how many of those officers on watch were OJT when collisions occurred a few years ago. The Navy has had investigations of late about ships crews not being up to trained standards and readiness status being "fudged" so the ship can depart and go on patrol. Two issues there...crew training and officer ethics.
 

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we got new second lt,s who had never been in country and they relyed on non coms a lot and we trused the older non coms over them.
It can go both ways. I arrived in Germany in early 1971 assigned to a Pershing 1A missile battalion. Throughout ROTC and Officer Basic Course we had pounded into our heads that we were to rely on and trust our NCO's. But I was quickly sobered up from this induced sense of euphoria when I realized my platoon sergeant and all the section chiefs were worthless. (3x Pershing launch platoons, each with three launchers, per battery.) They were all retrained and involuntarily reassigned from air defense Nike Hercules units, and they were not happy with that. Their bad attitude was infectious and the platoon's operational performance showed it. I quickly learned to rely only on my "acting jack" sergeants - E4/Spec 4 - to get things done. I made a point of taking care of them, and they reciprocated.
 

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Yes, a lot of NCOs aren't that good- "mediocre", to use Clyde's word. As one officer who served when I did said "The 'Old Sarge who really know his stuff''-how many of those did YOU meet ?" Belittling school training, thinking OJT is a magic word that can produce the same results in a fifth of the time...... Telling a newbie to "watch the experienced guys"-who learned by ....in one book I read about Patton the author made clear his dislike of him but acknowledged that he was professional enough to recognize that trying turn a clerk, a cook, a truck driver into an instant infantryman swelled the casualty rosters but achieved little else.
In WW2 honor graduates of many course-electronics and aviation, e.g-were immediately reassigned as intructors, that allowed for expansion of various schools and ensured they were taught by the best and the brightest.
 

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Yes, a lot of NCOs aren't that good- "mediocre", to use Clyde's word. As one officer who served when I did said "The 'Old Sarge who really know his stuff''-how many of those did YOU meet ?" Belittling school training, thinking OJT is a magic word that can produce the same results in a fifth of the time...... Telling a newbie to "watch the experienced guys"-who learned by ....in one book I read about Patton the author made clear his dislike of him but acknowledged that he was professional enough to recognize that trying turn a clerk, a cook, a truck driver into an instant infantryman swelled the casualty rosters but achieved little else.
In WW2 honor graduates of many course-electronics and aviation, e.g-were immediately reassigned as intructors, that allowed for expansion of various schools and ensured they were taught by the best and the brightest.
George Patton was the product of an Army that (except for WWI, until WWII came along) didn't have much to do other than spit and polish and train (and a lot of that was close order drill, and stables) including (especially for Marines) a lot of range time shooting KD on nice round spots on white canvas. Come Mexico (he was there as a junior LT) and WWI (he was there as a quickly promoted colonel running tanks) and then the time between the wars and the big Louisiana Maneuvers where Ike made his name, he saw the need for training. Especially field training and unit training. And how much more we needed (officers - especially senior officers) when he got to North Africa. Georgie had his faults, but Ike and Marshall were smart enough to protect him as much as they could and somehow get him into the right places when there fighting was happening.

The Germans feared/respected Patton the most of any Allied commander during the war in Western Europe, and expected him to be the American (and probably Allied) ground forces commander when the invasion was launched - when he wasn't, it helped keep them off balance the first few weeks of the invasion. And part of that was his (known) emphasis on training.
 

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Let me be very clear to you, I never said nor nuanced the US Navy was not competent nor unable to do its mission. We do have a Navy, other nations...not so much. One has to wonder though, how many of those officers on watch were OJT when collisions occurred a few years ago. The Navy has had investigations of late about ships crews not being up to trained standards and readiness status being "fudged" so the ship can depart and go on patrol. Two issues there...crew training and officer ethics.
The thread began as a discussion of deployment an untrained E1 and that is where my thoughts centered.

When two ships do a banger, or run aground, it is squarely the fault of the Captain first and the OOD second, not some seaman, not the lookouts, the radarman or the quartermaster. In fact, everything that happens on a ship, or everything that should happen and doesn't is squarely on the shoulders of the Old Man. It is his responsibility to make sure that his crew is trained and properly motivated before he leaves the dock. It is not the enlisted men who fudge anything, unless it is a cake. A collision is a failure of leadership at the top, not lack of training at the bottom for if the training of the enlisted men is inadequate, then again, it is squarely on the Captain's plate. With that responsibility comes a great deal of power.

Yes, a lot of NCOs aren't that good- "mediocre", to use Clyde's word. As one officer who served when I did said "The 'Old Sarge who really know his stuff''-how many of those did YOU meet ?" Belittling school training, thinking OJT is a magic word that can produce the same results in a fifth of the time...... Telling a newbie to "watch the experienced guys"-who learned by ....in one book I read about Patton the author made clear his dislike of him but acknowledged that he was professional enough to recognize that trying turn a clerk, a cook, a truck driver into an instant infantryman swelled the casualty rosters but achieved little else.
In WW2 honor graduates of many course-electronics and aviation, e.g-were immediately reassigned as intructors, that allowed for expansion of various schools and ensured they were taught by the best and the brightest.
Yes, a lot of NCOs aren't that good- "mediocre", to use Clyde's word. As one officer who served when I did said "The 'Old Sarge who really know his stuff''-how many of those did YOU meet ?" Belittling school training, thinking OJT is a magic word that can produce the same results in a fifth of the time...... Telling a newbie to "watch the experienced guys"-who learned by ....in one book I read about Patton the author made clear his dislike of him but acknowledged that he was professional enough to recognize that trying turn a clerk, a cook, a truck driver into an instant infantryman swelled the casualty rosters but achieved little else.
In WW2 honor graduates of many course-electronics and aviation, e.g-were immediately reassigned as intructors, that allowed for expansion of various schools and ensured they were taught by the best and the brightest.
Yes, a lot of NCOs aren't that good- "mediocre", to use Clyde's word. As one officer who served when I did said "The 'Old Sarge who really know his stuff''-how many of those did YOU meet ?" Belittling school training, thinking OJT is a magic word that can produce the same results in a fifth of the time...... Telling a newbie to "watch the experienced guys"-who learned by ....in one book I read about Patton the author made clear his dislike of him but acknowledged that he was professional enough to recognize that trying turn a clerk, a cook, a truck driver into an instant infantryman swelled the casualty rosters but achieved little else.
In WW2 honor graduates of many course-electronics and aviation, e.g-were immediately reassigned as intructors, that allowed for expansion of various schools and ensured they were taught by the best and the brightest.
There may be a difference in an Army sergeant and a Navy CPO. There were CPOs that I despised, but none that I did not respect for their knowledge of their specialty. By the time they made E7 or E8 the officers who had any sense would defer to the chief's "suggestions."
 

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The thread began as a discussion of deployment an untrained E1 and that is where my thoughts centered.

When two ships do a banger, or run aground, it is squarely the fault of the Captain first and the OOD second, not some seaman, not the lookouts, the radarman or the quartermaster. In fact, everything that happens on a ship, or everything that should happen and doesn't is squarely on the shoulders of the Old Man. It is his responsibility to make sure that his crew is trained and properly motivated before he leaves the dock. It is not the enlisted men who fudge anything, unless it is a cake. A collision is a failure of leadership at the top, not lack of training at the bottom for if the training of the enlisted men is inadequate, then again, it is squarely on the Captain's plate. With that responsibility comes a great deal of power.






There may be a difference in an Army sergeant and a Navy CPO. There were CPOs that I despised, but none that I did not respect for their knowledge of their specialty. By the time they made E7 or E8 the officers who had any sense would defer to the chief's "suggestions."
An Army sergeant (as a rank) is an E-5. LOT of difference between an Army E-5 and a Navy E-7 or E-8. Not so much between a Navy E-7 and an Army E-7 (Sergeant First Class).
 

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I arrived aboard my ship which I had been waiting for three weeks. I was transfering from boot camp in 70 degree balmy weather. When I left Great lakes it was about -20. Was told at revilie I would report to #1 engingroom Ambient air temp went from about 80 Degrees to to about 120 130.I was told I would be training with the messenger of the watch. So for the next few weeks O was his shadow and how tp take reading off the reduction gears, high and low speed turbines. So that was my first introduction to standing watches on a navy ship. In due course I sould become a qualified messesenger, Then onto training for lube pump man. There were a few other watches I would also have train on but didn't find them very difficult to learn. Don't make the mistake that I didn't know what I was doing. the pracitical expenience came. Remember the old saying" ten hours of sheer boredom followed by seconds of sheer terror.In less than a year I was qualified to stand all watches all unrated sailors must stand. You must remember that machinist mate and boiler tenders were critical ratings. It meant that there were not of us to go around. I usually pickup things quickly so asorbing info was my strong suit.Frank
 
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