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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Note: First thread is located below, this one came later

Len S
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 8:02:20 PM
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After coming across the one I picked up yesterday I decided to check the other Carcano's I owned to see if by some chance any of them had German markings. Over a month ago I reported finding a non-Finn M38 in 7.35 with a barrel date of 1940 & a stock date of '41
(see thread, http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1528 ).

To my surprise I discovered an HZa eagle on the stock this time - HZaJn1?


http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/2003106195815_today1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/200310620034_carc8.jpg
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Faked "HZa" stamps

Here is a very informative part hidden within an old Hunter's Lodge thread; I am taking it out and adding it here where it belongs:

* * *

Radom1935
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 08:24:38 AM
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A Dealer on one of the Auction Sites is selling a Carcano M38 Bringback with a German Acceptance or Rebuild Mark on the Stock. It is at the bottom of the handgrip. Where are the Marks on the Fakes located?



DMala
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 09:44:27 AM
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FYI, attached is the ad of the fake in question. The German stamp located at the wrist of the Carcanos seized after Sept. 8, 1943, bears the letters "HZaJt3", looking therefore different from the one in the ad.

original picture no longer accessible
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Radom1935
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 10:04:13 AM
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This is the Wrist Mark from the one on Auction:

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/radom1935/200312161044_carcano wrist stamp.JPG
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DMala
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 10:32:39 AM
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I am no expert, but it seems that the stamp is above a dent and a scratch in the wood, and the eagle is way sharper than the few I have directly seen so far. On the contrary the letters seem quite dull, which is a bit odd: can you make out what they say? If the stamp were under a scratch it would be more credible, in this case I would not rule out a fake but I am not sure.



DMala
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 10:34:00 AM
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Also, I just noticed that the letter size seems to be bigger than the examples I have seen so far, now I am more skeptical even if not yet 100% sure.



Ronin48
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 12:52:31 PM
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During the early-mid 90s I attended several OGCA shows a year. At every show there was at least one Carcano with a large German "acceptance mark' on the bottom of the butt stock. Mentioned this to Dick Hobbs during a phone converesation and he noted that there was a person at the CA shows that was selling a German 'acceptance' stamp for both wood and metal. In early 1980s lived in Pittsburgh, PA. Friend showed me a 98K he got as a kid, he sporterized it and when older/wiser had the rifle restored by a local "gunsmith." Fellow had all the German stamps to proof any stock any way you wanted it.

My thesis is that 75% or more of the Carcs you see with wood stamped with German 'acceptance' mark are a fake.



Franchi
Posted - 12/16/2003 : 5:07:30 PM
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I "blew-up" that auction HZa

[original photo no longer accessible[/i]
http://photo.starblvd.net/~orr4sale/15-5-2.jpg

It looks like HZa something and looks to be correct, hard to tell without seeing it in person. Most of the Fake German stamps, so far, have been "WaA--". I haven't seen any "HZa--" yet. Usually the WaA number is wrong for the weapon and in the wrong place.
David Franchi


Follows picture from Radom1935:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
First HZa Carcano Thread by Len

That is the first discussion started by Len; the second thread is posted above.

Len S
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 5:19:18 PM
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Hi guys,
I picked up this Carcano carbine at a local antique show today.The only markings on the left side of the barrel are the serial # "YD 5849" over crown/RE.The butt is marked with the identical serial #.There's also a very small cartouche just ahead of the sling well.The underside of the stock is marked with a German eagle & swastika over HZa113(?).Selling price was $125.The piece is in very nice condition and appears to have had very little use.No import markings apparent.The dealer told me it had come from an estate sale in the area.

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/2003105171852_carc5.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/2003105171429_carc3.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/2003105171546_carc1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/Len S/2003105171742_carc2.jpg
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Franchi
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 6:46:11 PM
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Your carbine was made by FNA-Brescia, probably in 1943/44. The German marking is HZaJt3 which is the German Army Equipment Depot Heereszeugämter (HZa) located at Berlin-Spandau Depot. The HZa depots were responsible for storage, issue, and repair of equipment. Many times rifles with the HZa marking have mis-matched stocks (might be why they were inspected) does your rifle look like it has any repairs made to it?
The other marking, inside the oval, could be a (4UT), an Italian inspection stamp.
Nice find, and in nice condition, and matching. David Franchi
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e-mail: [email protected]



Len S
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 7:15:53 PM
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Originally posted by Franchi
Your carbine was made by FNA-Brescia, probably in 1943/44. The German marking is HZaJt3 which is the German Army Equipment Depot Heereszeugämter (HZa) located at Berlin-Spandau Depot. The HZa depots were responsible for storage, issue, and repair of equipment. Many times rifles with the HZa marking have mis-matched stocks (might be why they were inspected) does your rifle look like it has any repairs made to it?
The other marking, inside the oval, could be a (4UT), an Italian inspection stamp.
Nice find, and in nice condition, and matching. David Franchi
I don't see anything to indicate that it was repaired.The oval cartouche might be 4UT but it's not really legible.Is this one of the oft discussed "Volksturm" Carcani?



Franchi
Posted - 10/05/2003 : 7:35:29 PM
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I would say these "HZa" marked Carcanos have a good chance of being "Volkssturm" weapons, especially since they came from the Berlin Depot.
The (4UT) marking is best read with the barrel pointing up, it is a "4" above a "UT".
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e-mail: [email protected]



Len S
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 05:40:11 AM
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Originally posted by Franchi
I would say these "HZa" marked Carcanos have a good chance of being "Volkssturm" weapons, especially since they came from the Berlin Depot.
The (4UT) marking is best read with the barrel pointing up, it is a "4" above a "UT".
I've looked at the cartouche from all angles and in different lighting conditions.It does seem to have something at its apex ,perhaps a crown,over 4 UT ,on the same line, and what might be a two digit # below that.Does this conform to any known marking?



spyman
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 09:48:52 AM
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I have a T38 carcano which is marked on the underside of the stock behind the trigger guard eagle HZaJ12.. The weapon is Terni 1939 cal. 7.35 all matched including stock.. It also has a SA Finnish stamp on the BBL above the sn. M9700..
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BILL GRIST



Franchi
Posted - 10/06/2003 : 12:30:10 PM
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Len, There are (3 line) stock markings with a crown above 4UT, above a number or numbers. This style is usually inside a circle, the lower numbers are probably a date, ie: 41 (1941), 4 (1944). Yours, if a date, should be 43, 44, or 4.

Bill, I do have a M41 Armaguerra rifle reported with an HZaJt2.
(HZaJt2 would be the Depot located in Güstrow or Stettin)
However, your [SA] 7.35 M38 Short Rifle with the "HZaJ12" (if J12 and not Jt2, it would be the Depot in Mainz-Kastel) really doesn't fit into known examples, and is a little suspect. The Finnish Army would have had to return the rifle to Germany or Italy, or it is possible the Germans took it with them when they were forced to leave Finland near the end of the war. There is another problem, all examples of Italian rifles marked with an "HZa" are 6.5 cal. and documents etc. indicate the Volksstrum only used 6.5 Italian rifles no 7.35 cal.
Does the "HZa" marking on your M38SR look like the one in this post? Does the stock serial match the size and "style" of other Italian rifles you have seen? Is the stock marked with a (1 1/2" approx.) round cartouche? Is the stock marked CAL. 7.35? I am not saying the "HZa" is fake, but it is suspect and would be very unusual.
Regards, David
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e-mail
[email protected]



spyman
Posted - 10/10/2003 : 11:00:20 AM
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David,
The HZA is exactly the same as in the post no difference except 12 instead of 2, the stock is marked with the 1 1/2 round cartouche, the stock is not marked 7.35, the Sn. on the stock is the same size as others... It came from a vet. 30 yrs ago for 25$... Bill
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BILL GRIST



Franchi
Posted - 10/12/2003 : 1:13:56 PM
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Hi Guys, Since Len also has a 7.35 cal. "HZa" Carcano and Bill's has a "history" I have to re-think my opinion. It appears the Germans did use 7.35 rifles, but probably not for the Volksstrum (as I stated before, records indicate they only used 6.5) this doesn't mean they couldn't have been used by "other" units/organizations.
Bill's being [SA] marked still is unusual.

I have been going through all my "data" on HZa marked items and found "other "HZa" markings.
In an article by Bob Jensen (Feb. 1985 KCN newsletter) on Nazi Carcanos he states there are at least eight different "HZa" markings.
I have the following "Other" numbers reported on Carcano's: HZa117, HZa217, HZa21D or 210 (these could be mis-read HZaJ17/HZaJt7 etc. because as far as I know the "HZa" Depots only went up to 21) Of course these numbers behind the "HZa" might not be the Depot number.
I have asked the opinions of other researchers/collectors and will report their comments.
Found a few other "HZa" examples.
I have a Polish GEW 98 (1928) which has two HZa markings, one I am not sure of the number and the other one is perfect HZaJt20. I also have a GEW98 re-work marked Jt13 or18 and a French 1892 revolver holster re-worked for a French/German 1935A pistol with an H Za. Jt. 3. ink stamp.
Other numbers (not owned by me), HZaJb3 and HZaJc18 on re-worked Lugers.
David Franchi



Len S
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 7:11:04 PM
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Hi David,
I contacted George Wheeler to ask if he had information on the various HZa depots & their locations.He said he didn't but thought Mike Welser might so I'm going to send him an inquiry.I remember someone ,from the BCN I think, posting a list of the various foreign arms & ammunition retained in German depots late in the war.I recall that there seemed to be very little ammo on hand for some of the weapons.This could have been the problem with the limited use of the 7.35 cal. rifles vs the 6.5's.



Carcano
Posted - 01/05/2004 : 4:30:07 PM
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A *most* interesting and instructive thread, and I really feel that I should incorporate it into the Carcano website. A big "thank you" to all of you !

Having carefully read the description of the two M 1938 short rifles with the HZa stamp, something does appear faintly smelly there... it just doesn seem right, whereas the M 91/38 cavalry carbine appears perfectly legitimate. I just don't see any reasonable and credible way how a Finnish-marked Fucile M 1938 would find its way into a HZa depot, and the other gun with the unnumbered reclaimed 7,35mm barrel in a M 91/38 stock also appears a late put-together after the war...

Lots of research and comparison still to be done.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 3:21:27 PM
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Take care in attributing things to the Volkssturm. Just because there is some sort of WaA on an arm does not mean it went to the VS; it only means it went through a German ordnance repair facility for something. Beyond that you can't say much. It is more than likely that the VS got a mixture of WaA'd and non-WaA'd rifles.



Carcano
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 5:24:10 PM
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Procurement for the Volkssturm was not handled by Wehrmachtsdienststellen; it was responsibility of the NSDAP, and of various other organization (Italienstab des Reichsministers für Rüstung und Bewaffnung, SA). This fact makes it unlikely that WaA-marked guns would have ended up with the Volkssturm in large numbers, though it is of course possible that some Heereszeugämter unloaded their superfluous foreign guns for which they had no or almost no ammo (such as Dutch and Danish rifles).

Brief biographic notices and snippets on the Volkssturm are fairly common. notably in memoirs and in local and regional chronicles; mostly, they mention Italian, French, Belgian rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
keithreid
Posted - 02/04/2007 : 5:38:52 PM
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hello, picked up 2 carcano's at a show today and had a question about a stamp on one of them.

the first is a 1903 terni 1891 with a stamped matching bolt. the bolt has the later style extractor though, so it must've been replaced in the ww1 time frame. has a mint bore and isn't tubata marked, so i was happy to get my hands on it!

the second is a m1891TS in original configuration. after i paid for them and the seller was handing them across, he noticed a stamp on the buttstock and started cussing under his breath. said it had a volkssturm stamp on it. i looked when i got it back home and the stamp looks like a very crude and oversized waffenampt, likely done freehand.

i know nothing about most german stamps, anyone here heard of it?

sorry, can't do pics at the moment. forgot my charger when i hit the road this time, and new batteries are 70 bucks apiece! i'll post a pic as soon as i'm able to charge the battery i've got though.



airdale
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 07:59:28 AM
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Sounds like your M91TS is one of the Nazi marked carcano's that was confiscated from Italian stores or soldiers probably around the time that Italy swaped sides and joined the Allies. The one's I have seen are stamped on the bottom of the buttstock between the trigger guard and buttplate and are usually poorly stamped or dinged up and hard to read.



DMala
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 11:02:43 AM
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Airdale is correct about the location of the waffenamt on the lower ridge of the butsstock. They are small but when preserved well made, not manually drawn.
Yours sounds like an "upgrade".....



NebrHogger
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 6:06:35 PM
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Here's a pic of the genuine article - if yours is much bigger than this, it's bogus. SW





Prez1981
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 6:19:30 PM
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That is one of the stamps used. Most will bear some letters underneath like HzA Jt# or Su #, etc. I would be leery if it looks handcrafted or is placed somewhere else on the stock.



keithreid
Posted - 02/05/2007 : 8:14:44 PM
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it's on the left side, just in front of the sling slot. there's an "H" beneath it, and it's a good bit bigger. the left wing has 4 lines, the right wing has 3. i'll try to get some pic's if i can find a charger for my camera(forgot to bring it on this trip).

good thing i didn't buy the rifle for the marking! no one noticed it till after i had bought it. thanks, y'all have a good day! Keith



WaPrüf2
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 8:06:21 PM
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There is no known official special Volkssturm property stamp for weapons. All a WaA on a non-German rifle means is that it went through some sort of German inspection process. There is no way to determine what specific unit used it.



Ronin48
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 8:41:43 PM
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Carefull with these, there was a fellow that use to have a dealer's table at most Cleveland (?) shows, somewhat on the 'shady' side. Always had a Carcano or two with a large Volkssturm stamp on the butt bottom. In those days a Carcano was a max. of $50. German metal and wood stamps were sold by a CA individual. With one $20 stamp you could turn a $35 rifle into a $250 one.



NebrHogger
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 8:58:42 PM
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Hunters Lodge must have bought the stamps when he retired! SW
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Marks_spas_12
Posted - 03/21/2007 : 11:11:28 PM
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I was examining my 38 carcano and noticed there is a waffenamt on the bottom side of the buttstock. But instead of a waa# it looks like it says something like NZaJ13. It is very hard to read but thats my best guess. Does anybody have anything that looks similar or knows what it actually says? Also how many 38's did the nazis get ahold of and mark? And would they have possibly removed the bayonet lug if there were no bayonets available?



Prez1981
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 10:02:55 AM
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Nice find! It's a HzA Jt3 most likely.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 03/22/2007 : 10:26:54 AM
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When Italy changed sides in 1943 the Germans disarmed and made prisoner virtually all Italian units in the German area of operations. German regs called for all captured arms to be collected and inspected before any reissue. Just what the significance of marks like yours means has, so far as I know, never been documented but it is assumed it means the weapon was inspected and perhaps underwent some sort of repair by the Germans. I've never seen accurate figures on the number of Italian arms seized but the number was very high. As far as bayonet lugs/folding bayonets are concerned, contemporary photos do not show any arms with them removed.



Franchi
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 7:16:21 PM
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The "HZa" stands for (Heereszeugämter) Army Equipment Depot and was controlled by the Ordnance Headquarters they handled all types of weapons and were storage Depots which also tested and
adjusted and or repaired newly arrived material and equipment.
There were about 28 Depots in Germany and occupied countries. Most German re-worked Carcanos will be found with the re-work marking "HZaJt3". Often the stock serial on the "HZa" won't match the rifle serial. This isn't a common marking.
David Franchi



Marks_spas_12
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 11:17:10 AM
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Originally posted by Franchi
The "HZa" stands for (Heereszeugämter) Army Equipment Depot and was controlled by the Ordnance Headquarters they handled all types of weapons and were storage Depots which also tested and adjusted and or repaired newly arrived material and equipment.
There were about 28 Depots in Germany and occupied countries. Most German re-worked Carcanos will be found with the re-work marking "HZaJt3". Often the stock serial on the "HZa" won't match the rifle serial. This isn't a common marking.
David Franchi
on the one that I have the stock serial does match the reciever. Any idea on what these go for price wise?



Ronin48
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 11:17:03 AM
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I've posted this before, scum bag at Ohio shows always had a Carc. or two that was German marked, large, clear mark, on bottom of butt. Selling these as German used. Same period someone in CA (?) was advertising German wood and metal stamps in SGN. This was when an average Carcano was in the $35-$50 range, but German-marked ones (his) were $300! Same dealer had a post-war,gunsmith converted to .30-06, cal. stamped on chamber, T-99 Arisaka he was selling as a "Korean conversion." Things are sometimes not what they seem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Typical FAKE stamps on Fucile 91/38 - see as a warning!

hatrick
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 09:49:00 AM
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I am not familiar with all of the details of German marked Carcanos and I was hoping that some of the experts here can tell me if these German proof marks are authentic or fakes. The rifle is a vet bring back (duffle cut/non-import) M38 in 6.5mm and it has Nazi proof stamps on the receiver , barrel, stock and the bayonet lug. They look good to me but I can't seem to find any documentation on this WaA number being on Carcanos.

Take a look at the following pics and let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Eric

http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/hatrick/20075394744_Carcano1.jpg
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http://old.gunboards.com/uploaded/hatrick/2007539485_Carcano2.jpg
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NebrHogger
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 09:52:46 AM
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I am always leery of Nazi marks on these rifles. Do you actually know the vet who brought this back? SW



Prez1981
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 11:57:06 AM
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Fake.



airdale
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 12:24:53 PM
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Those are the same two fake stamps that Numrich gun parts are selling www.e-gunparts.com item #811650 and 811660



Prez1981
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 1:50:24 PM
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It's a shame as the 6.5mm SR is fairly difficult to find. I'm surprised the price is so high on the piece.



DMala
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 2:24:03 PM
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Originally posted by Prez1981
Fake.
Unfortunately, I agree.



WaPrüf2
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 3:07:49 PM
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Concur; it has been "improved."



NebrHogger
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 10:54:21 PM
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It went for $606!!!! Has the planet gone mad??? SW
 

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I know this is an old thread and I cant see any pictures that were posted. I purchased the rifle from Bill that he gave info on and want to say that the mark is not HZaJ12 it is HZaJt2.
 

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Doesn't a 'JT' marking indicate Ingolstadt?

Pat
 

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Yes, JT' marking is Ingolstadt, actually the "JT" is a German "IT"

David

From the U.S. ARMY Handbook on German Military Forces.

b. EQUIPMENT DEPOTS. Army Equipment Depots (Heereszeugämter or HZa) and Army Branch Equipment Depots (Heeresnebenzeugämter or HNZa), controlled by the Ordnance Headquarters, handle weapons, tanks, tank spare parts, motor transport, assault boats, radio apparatus, anti-gas equipment, bridge materials, special clothing, concrete mixers, and manuals, as well as many other articles. They do not furnish ammunition, fuel, rations, clothing (other than special types), medical and veterinary equipment, horses, or most types of individual equipment. Although the depots normally handle a great variety of items, they sometimes concentrate upon particular types. For example, air reconnaissance has revealed large concentrations of motor transport at the Chemnitz HZa and large artillery stores at the Berlin-
Spandau HZa. It is known, however, that these centers also hold large stores of equipment which cannot be seen from the air. When depots specialize in only one type of equipment, they have their specialties incorporated into their names. This group includes the Army Tank Equipment Depot (Heerespanzerzeugamt or HPZa) at Magdeburg-Königsborn; the Army Branch Tank Equipment Depots (Heerespanzernebenzeugämter or HPNZa) at Frankfurt an der Oder, Naumburg, Bielefeld, Breslau, Oppeln, Kassel, Altengrabow, and Olmütz; the Army Signal Equipment Depot (Heereszeugamtnachrichten or HZaNachr) at Berlin-Schöneberg; and the Army Branch Signal Equipment Depot (Heeresnebenzeugamtnachrichten or HNZaNachr) at Wien-Strebersdorf (Vienna). In addition to their storage functions, the HZa and HNZa adjust and test newly arrived materials and repair damaged equipment. Several of the HNZa are engaged almost entirely in repair functions, and most equipment depots maintain ordnance, signal, and engineer equipment servicing sections for inspecting newly manufactured equipment and repairing damaged equipment. Specialization in items repaired may occur: thus the tank equipment depots repair tanks and armored vehicles which have been so badly damaged that they cannot be repaired in the field. The equipment depots are staffed by officers and noncommissioned officers of the Ordnance Branch who control the workers, usually civilians or soldiers serving a prison sentence. An Army Equipment Depot is divided into two parts: the storage depot (Lager) and the workshop (Werkstatt). The storage depot is subdivided in departments (Bezirke), each of which specializes in one type of equipment. Depending on the type of equipment handled, the workshop will have separate sections like an arms workshop (Waffen-Werkstatt), an optical instruments workshop (Optische-Werkstatt), etc. The Army Equipment Branch Depot is organized along the same lines as the Army Equipment Depot. Associated with equipment depots are the Armed Forces depots attached to motor transport manufacturers. The main function of these is to facilitate transfer of vehicles from factories to equipment depots. As the number of HZa is relatively limited and as they are perhaps the largest supply depots within Germany, they have been heavily bombed by Allied air forces. Despite much damage, the HZa have shown great recuperative powers. The importance of many HZa, however, has diminished, while that of the HNZa has increased through the dispersion of stores among the smaller supply centers.



List of known Army Equipment Depots (branch depots not included):


Corps Area Installation Location



I HZa Königsberg

II HZa Güstrow

II HZa Stettin

III HZa Berlin-Spandau

III HZaNachr Berlin-Schöneberg

IV HZa Chemnitz

IV HZa Xaumburg

V HZa Ulm

VI HZa Unna

VII HZa Freilassing

VII HZa Ingolstadt

VII HZa München

VIII HZa Breslau

VIII HZa Brieg

VIII HZa Kotzenau

IX HZa Kassel

X HZa Hamburg-Glinde

XI HZa Hannover

XI HZa Magdeburg

XI HPZa Magdeburg-Königsborn

XII HZa Mainz-Kastel

XIII HZa Amberg

XVII HZa Wels

XVII HZa Wien

XVIII HZa Hall (in Tirol)

XVIII HZa Salzburg

XX HZa Graudenz

XXI HZa Posen
 

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Thanks David. JT20 was the only code I had been aware of from Ingolstadt. Here's a JT 20 stamp on my German modified/used Yugoslav Model 1924 rifle:



Pat
 

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I have a reworked Polish Mod. 98 Carb. F.B. RADOM 1928 which has two HZa markings, HZaJt20 and what looks like HZa??13 or 3. Stock is cut for a turn down bolt, but it has a matching straight bolt.

David
 

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Turbo Archie-
Here you go:



German installed bolt takedown ferrule, right over the Peter II cartouche:


Receiver markings; a former Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes rifle:


German serial number stamps on small bolt parts:


The bands, stock, butt plate and small bolt parts were all stamped by the Germans, while the other parts retain their original Yugoslav stamps. Between the original and added stamps, the rifle is matched throughout. There's also an Eagle/swastika stamp next to the German stock stamp.

I've been told that most of the Beutewaffen from the greater Mediterranean basin and the Balkans wound up in Ingolstadt due to its proximity and ease of rail links. That explains why the Italian and Yugoslav arms can be encountered with that stamp, I guess.

Pat
 

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You're welcome sir, I'm glad you liked them.
Best,
Pat
 
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