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dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2006 : 7:47:46 PM
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I have 2 but I really don't think there is much interest in them--am I wrong or right?
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

richardwv
MH Forum Moderator



USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2006 : 8:31:34 PM
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While you are right in that they don't have much of a following, I think that is as much based on scarcity and lack of tie to a well known historical event rather than an informed decision to ignore. If you hauled out one in front of a bunch of gun nuts, I think it would generate a lot of interest.....since the odds are good not one of them would have ever seen/handled one before. If either of your's is feeling unloved, I'm sure I could find room in the vault.

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Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!


doughboy1953
Gunboards Super Premium Member



USA
366 Posts
Posted - 11/29/2006 : 8:37:46 PM
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In my experience they are uncommon and pricey. I have never seen one for sale "in person" only on the net. I can't answer for how well they'd sell but I'd guess both military and single shot collectors would compete for them.


Viclav
Gunboards Member



USA
36 Posts
Posted - 11/30/2006 : 09:54:30 AM
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The Werder does relate to one major historical event... it was an issue weapon to Bavarian troops during the Franco-Prussian War, though I gather the majority were armed with older Linder. Looked at Werders on Mr. Doyon's site... quite ingenious derivative of the Peabody/Martini design. Easy to operate from the prone position, and the entire action can be pulled out through the top for cleaning. Is it similar to the Lee vertical?

Victor

"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 11/30/2006 : 7:54:19 PM
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Victor
You mention The Keith Doyan site; I have one of mine displayed there. It is an original unmodified one with Bavarian unit marks. I guess it is from the only battle in the Franco-Prussian War that the Prussians(Bavarians) lost and the French won! The other I have is a carbine made in Belgium for the police I guess. I don't think many were made.
I hardly ever see one for sale! I don't really think they sell well--I guess the reason is like Richardwv said "scarcity".
Thanks for your input,
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


richardwv
MH Forum Moderator



USA
1832 Posts
Posted - 11/30/2006 : 10:23:41 PM
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Again dg13, if ever you feel like one of yours would like a different home, drop me a line. The only two I've seen in real life were both dogs beyond my desire to attempt any restoration to shooting condition....and in my collection if I can't figure a way to shoot it, I really don't want it.

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Rich in WV…..savoring life one cartridge at a time!


JPS
Moderator - WWI Arms & Militaria Collector



USA
4436 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 12:18:12 AM
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Yo Darrell,

I still have mine and am very happy with it. It's one of the post Franco-Prussian War conversions to 11x60mmR Mauser. It's in reasonably decent condition with the usual dings you would expect in a 100+ year old rifle. I would never fire it as it is simply too valuable. I'll try and remember to dig out some of the photos I have of this rifle.

Like everyone else, I think that there are not very many around and to top it off, very few folks who even know what a Werder is!

Warmest regards,

JPS


PeterS
Gunboards Super Premium Member



Germany
344 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 01:06:40 AM
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here is mine...

Amberg made and converted to the Mauser cartrige...

but im still looking for one with the "Mauser M71 barrel-bands", a carbine and then as the gem... on in the original configuration....

Download Attachment:
84.61 KB


wyowillys46
Gunboards Premium Member



134 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 01:52:43 AM
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Beautiful rifle. As I understand it only a couple hundred managed to escape the conversion to 11.15x60R Mauser making them even more rare than the average Werder. Either way I've never seen one for sale.

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Edited by - wyowillys46 on 12/01/2006 01:55:40 AM


Viclav
Gunboards Member



USA
36 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 11:09:59 AM
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dg13, Richard et al,
Here's one of the altered guns (Austrian marked)... sold recently at Hermann Historica:

http://www.hermann-historica.com/

They have some nice stuff. A Francotte 577/450 Martini short rifle went for 200+ Euro! If memory serves, Collectible etc. etc. in Fredericksburg Va offered one for a while. I confess I didn't give these guns much thought until this conversation.

dg... that's your unaltered rifle with the chassepot- like bayonet on Keith's site? Very nice! I've got a shoe on the other Franco-Prussian foot... bought a Peabody from Keith. It has the German 1890s storage mark, but also a largish 120 on the frame. I like to imagine it actually got issued to a French unit and was then captured, rather than turned over in a crate of un-used companions.

Victor

"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."


John Sukey
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



USA
9613 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 5:50:17 PM
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Had a carbine many many years ago. At the time I couldn't find any way to shoot it.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 7:34:19 PM
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The best site for learning about the werder is:


http://www.militaryrifles.com/Bavaria/Werder&Aptiertes.htm

dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 8:42:57 PM
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The toughest to find is the first model rifle still in the Werder cartridge followed by the Gendarmeriegewehr. As far as the bayonets go, an unaltered M69 bayo is difficult and the socket bayonet for the Gendarmeriegewehr is almost impossible. The pistols are relatively common; original ammo is hard to find also.

I like them; I have one M69uM, one M69nM, one Kar 69 (final version sights), one Pistol M69 and one Gendarmeriegewehr plus some bayonets and a few specimen cartridges.

Some recommended references:

Hans-Dieter Götz, German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871-1945, 1990 (It does cover the Werder but the translation from the German edition is a bit odd...)
John Walter, The German Rifle, 1979


Hans Reckendorf, Die bayerischen Handfeuerwaffen 1800-1875, 1998
Hans Reckendorf, Die Faustfeuerwaffen der Königlich Bayerischen Armee, 1981 (for the pistol only)
Udo Vollmer, Deutsche Militärhandfeuerwaffen: Heft 1: Bayern, 2002

NB: A German collector warned me years ago to keep the breechblocks in the down (open) position on Werders to avoid puttinng tension on the mainspring and eventually cracking or breaking it. I have seen several pistols and rifles over the years where this has in fact happened; take care on this point. I don't think Numrich has parts... ;)




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Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 12/02/2006 12:13:48 PM


John Wallace
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



3488 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 03:40:20 AM
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I should think Werder collectors are few and far between. But they should appeal to a lot of people who collect a particular region or period, or who, like me, wander indo various things we find interesting. It should be about as valuable as most other uncommon military rifles of the period.

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'I know what war means. I have been with the armies of all the belligerents except one, and I have seen men die, and go mad, and lie in hospitals suffering hell; but there is a worse thing than that. War means an ugly mob madness, crucifying the truth tellers, choking the artists, sidetracking reforms, revolutions and the working of social forces'.

John Reed


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 08:12:06 AM
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WaPrüf2
"The toughest to find is the first model rifle still in the Werder cartridge followed by the Gendarmeriegewehr."
What do you mean by the Gendarmeriegewehr? I have a carbine made in Belgium--Walter says it is for the Gendarmerie. Is this the one you mean? It still has the original sight.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 11:41:41 AM
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As far as I know all the carbines were made by Francotte in Belgium. There were a number of changes in the sights and in the cartridge loading. The carbines are stocked to the muzzle and have a saddle ring on the bottom of the butt.
The Gendarmeriegewehr M69 (adopted 1873; sometimes called M73) has conventional bottom sling swivels and the barrel extends beyond the end of the stock; it takes a socket bayonet and is fitted with a ramp-type rear sight (something similar appears on the Mauser K98k(v) of 1945).
Barrel length of carbine, 39 cm; barrel length of Gendarmeriegewehr (aka Gendarmeriekarabiner) 54.5cm.
The rifle versions all have the so-called "long action" while the pistol, carbine and Gendarmeriegewehr/karabiner have the so-called "short action"; the last three take the same round but the charge varies. There may also be variations in bullet weight.

dg13: page reference in Walter?

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Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 12/02/2006 1:06:38 PM


DaveinNYC
Gunboards Member



USA
20 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 11:58:55 AM
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All this interesting talk about Werders reminded me of the Werder bayonet and carbine/pistol tools that I had stashed away. I've listed these for sale in the WTS forum.

I had both the unaltered and the M1869 Aptiertes models. Sold the Aptiertes several years ago very shortly after I put it on my table at a show. Seemed to be a fair amount of interest at the time. This past spring the unaltered Werder went to a collector of European arms for a very good price. There was a lot of interest in this rifle from collectors at a couple of shows that I attended. Perhaps more people are reading Keith's excellent site since many knew exactly what the rifle was, especially that it was an all original unconverted Werder.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 1:19:57 PM
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WaPrüf2--Walter page 30 under Bavaria.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 1:30:18 PM
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DaveinNY-If I may be so bold as to ask the price of your last sale. I have the same rifle and would love to know. I am not planing on selling it.
dg13
I will try to take some pictures of my unaltered rifle today. Weather willing!


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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 3:04:23 PM
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dg13: Are we talking same title? I find only description of M57 carbine in my 1979 ed. The German Rifle.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 5:07:00 PM
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Sorry---Rifles of the world 2nd edition pg30
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 7:08:14 PM
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Thanks.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 10:16:30 AM
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Some pictures of a Werder from the 9th Jager. Prussians lost a battle in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Because this rifle was captured by the French in was not around in Baveria to be converted to the mauser round. It is in original unmodified condition which is very rare indeed.

Download Attachment:
193.81 KB

Download Attachment:
215.8 KB

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


DaveinNYC
Gunboards Member



USA
20 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 12:29:05 PM
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Hi dg13. Great photos! You have an excellent Werder. My Werder was also a captured piece that ended up in a large collection of Napoleonica owned by David Z. Norton of Cleveland banking fame. Christie's East, New York, auctioned the collection in 1998 to benefit the Western Reserve Historical Society. Christie's wrapped it up in so much padding and brown paper to the point that it didn't look like the package contained a rifle and I brought it home on the subway. While I can't reveal my sale price (out of deference to the purchaser) I would recommend that you insure your Werder for at least 3,000.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 06:15:55 AM
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Thank you Daveinny, as I pick my lower jaw up off the floor.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


TP
Moderator Military Mauser Forum



USA
2034 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 3:00:51 PM
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Just to revive the thread about the interesting Werder...

Download Attachment:
59.26 KB




WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2006 : 4:52:39 PM
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:) indeed! Very nice! Thanks.


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 01/28/2007 : 4:57:42 PM
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Hello all,
I just ran across this thread in a Google search for info about my 1874 Werder Gendarmeriegewehr. Boy was I shocked and elated at such a resource...so much so that I immediately registered as a member. As soon as I can figure out how to post photos, I would love to share what I have with anyone who might be interested.

Warmest regards from an excited newbie,
Philip


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 07:13:20 AM
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Believe me we are very excited to hear from a new Werder collector.
dg13

PICTURES PLEASE!!!

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


G. A-R-West
Gunboards Member



United Kingdom
21 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 3:40:17 PM
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Sirs,

We own a Bayerisches Infanteriegewehr M/69 (System Werder), once issued to the 5th Jager in its original chambering and in 'as issued condition'. It has taken about 15 years to perfect the M/69 long cartridge (correct case specification, loading and bullet) and find this rifle to be one of the fastest and most pleasant single shot rifles we have ever evaluated. Of the Franco-German conflict era we have tested all the principal arms of the antagonists in their original loading and although not the most powerful cartridge the M/69 outperformed all of them in rapidity of fire. It is the reason its well deserved soubriquet was 'Blitzgewehr - Lightning Rifle'.

After copying the best features of the M/69 cartridge, Prussia altered the M/69 rifle to chamber their M/71 Patrone to standardise for their M/71 system and consequently ruined the rifle and so it disappeared from history overshadowed by the M/71.

We have demonstrated the M/69 at Bisley during Classic Shoot demonstrations (with and without its original bayonet) and all who have seen it perform have been very impressed with it and its modern appearance. Encounters with M/69 armed Bavarians have been noted where the rapidity of the the arm saved the day - it was very lucky for the French indeed that the Bavarians were not all armed with the M/69!

The main weapon issued to the Bavarians was the cumbersome M/67 Podewils capping-breechloader (we have tested one also) and although an interesting and interim arm, it was about equal to the 18mm Tabatiere (also evaluated).

It is heartwarming that there are other shooters/collectors have taken an interest in one of the finest single shot rifles ever conceived.

Guy and Leonard A-R-West


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 7:10:51 PM
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Guy and Leonard A-R-West
Have you estimated how many unmodified Werders are now in existence? I have one from the 9th Jaeger.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 7:16:54 PM
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On various websites over the last two or three years I have from time to time seen sporterised Werders of varying quality; some appear to have started life as carbines and others as rifles. Since they have, by virtue of conversion, ceased to be of interest to me as military weapons, I have noted them but never acquired one. I'm curious to know what the opinion is of other Werder afficionados as to the prevalence of such conversions.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 9:45:07 PM
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Im only into military.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 01/29/2007 : 10:40:20 PM
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Hello all,

Pavlov could not have induced more saliva in my mouth than the post of Guy and Leonard ......and the rest of you all on this thread!
My Werder Gendarmeriegewehr has all matching numbers and is ser. # "1817". It has a remarkably bright bore for such an old firearm. It is stamped "1874" twice on the rear of the receiver (one above the other), "GF" on the chamber and "A. Francotte a Liege" on the top of the barrel. It has an early tangent sight adjustable to 400 paces. The barrel is almost completely browned with the receiver and everything else in the white. The elegantly thin, gracile walnut stock ends 85cm behind the muzzle to take a socket bayonet almost identical to the Podweils M57 bayonet. The receiver is too short to take the M/69 long cartridge but instead is chambered for the 11.5x32 round. If I'm not mistaken, that is the same round used in the Werder pistol.
The trigger group (an oddly modern reference to a 133 yr.old design)is numbered "616" and stamped "KC". No markings on the buttplate as this one was issued to the border guards. I sure would have hated to encounter those guys pointing one of these at me with a steep rise to one side and a near cliff on the other along those Bavarian Alp roads!
Again, I'll post pics when I find out how.

Regards, Philip


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/30/2007 : 06:45:29 AM
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I have your brother #1178 1874/1874 same description as yours vespaphil! No unit mark.

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


G. A-R-West
Gunboards Member



United Kingdom
21 Posts
Posted - 01/30/2007 : 12:35:59 PM
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dg13

We have discovered only 12 unconverted M/69 Werder in England, Belgium and France owned by collectors: one marked for 2nd Jager bataillon, and two marked for the 9th Jager bataillon. The other have infantry markings. We visited a place called Loigny in France where they were used and examined two in the museum there.

These unconverted rifles are extremely rare especially in good condition and marked for to the Jager - much sought after by collectors. It is impossible to guess how many are out there waiting to be discovered - lucky person who does chance accross one!

Converted to the M/71 Patrone are not so rare but also sought after.

Below is an extract from our article on the M/69 summing up the M/69:-

Conclusion
In the authors view the M/69 was in every respect an outstanding military rifle. It was unequivocally the best rifle used during the Franco-German War and had it been retained by Bavaria with its case ejection problem rectified for the Scharfe Patrone M/71, and without the M/71 front-band, it would have been undoubtedly one of the finest if not the best black powder single-shot military rifles in Europe until the general adoption of the repeater. It certainly held the advantage over under lever rifles when used in the prone position and is probably as fast if not faster than the Comblain Falling Block which has been described as the fastest operating single shot action ever made. Aside pushing the ejector-lever, the mechanism intrinsically requires only one hand-movement, namely the cocking in order to execute all mechanical functions (and without taking the right hand from the rifle), contemporary arms required three! Rapidity tests have been conducted by the authors using the principle French arms used during the Franco-German war: Mle. 1866, System 1867 ‘Tabatière’ and Egyptian Remington ‘rolling-block’ in which the M/69 out performs with ease. The M/69 set a precedence in that it was the first time in the Bavarian Army (and even the German army which later simulated this with the Commission ‘88 rifle) that infantrymen and jäger carried the same arm.

Guy and Leonard A-R-West FHBSA



dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 01/30/2007 : 10:28:37 PM
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I knew they were rare but not that rare! Thank you for your input!
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


PeterS
Gunboards Super Premium Member



Germany
344 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 3:01:21 PM
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saw at the Stuttgart gun-show last weekend one unconverted M/69 Werder. the rifle was sold for about 6.000,00 Euro (good++ condition). sadly i couldn't determine the rifle...

Peter


ncsammy
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
165 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 5:24:33 PM
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I have a Werder Model 1869 bayonet, modified (per Janzen’s bayonet book, 1987 ed., p. 13) that I put on eBay about a year ago, but the only serious interest I got was from overseas, and I didn’t want to get involved with shipping out of the country. Can any of the experts give me some idea of what a fair, realistic price would be?

Sam



DaveinNYC
Gunboards Member



USA
20 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 8:35:42 PM
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Hi Sam,
I just sold mine on eBay for $255.00. Previously I had put it on my table at gun shows for over two years at $275.00, but no takers. Another seller had his go all the way to $480.00 but this amount did not reach his reserve. He relisted and only got to $235.00 on the second round. My Werder bayonet was in near excellent condition marked to the 12th Regiment, his somewhat less. No problem shipping to Europe; mine went to France.
Regards,
Dave

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Edited by - DaveinNYC on 03/27/2007 8:39:43 PM


ncsammy
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
165 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 10:56:01 PM
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Hello Dave,

Thanks for the info. I put my Werder bayonet on eBay with a $400 reserve (with a block on all non-US bidders). It got to $275 or $300, although one European guy said he would give me $400 if I'd ship it to his country (just a coincidence with my reserve, I guess). I chose not to change my US delivery only policy, so I still have the bayonet, and I don't plan to list it again.

Sam


Vaarok
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



2496 Posts
Posted - 03/27/2007 : 11:19:11 PM
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I was going to post that I had never seen a Werder nor knew much about them, but now I have and know a little about 'em too. Thanks guys!

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Albacore: I got my Japanese banner today. I couldn't tell from the picture, but it's actually made of pink silk with a pattern of cherry blossoms.

Vaarok: You know, if it hadn't inspired a generation of Japanese to run around screaming KILLKILLKILL and conquering the pacific, that'd be kinda gay, right?

Albacore: Yeah. I guess so.


DocAV
Gunboards.Com Gold Star Member



Australia
3278 Posts
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 02:48:01 AM
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I have one here in Aussie, I think it is a M71 Conversion chamber...have not confirmed it yet( had it for years. it has been knocking about for years in a few collections, as the metal has a heavy Patina and is not what one would call "pristine", but the Bore is GOOD. One day I will try it out (have plenty of Dominion .43M cases and ammo, as well as Bertram 11mm Mauser Seconds (untrimmed and unnecked) and see how it performs.

Forms part of my "Early Metallic Breechloader" Collection, which has most of the 10mm-15mm BP cartridge chambers.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


B1acksmith
Gunboards Member



USA
99 Posts
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 09:10:05 AM
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I try to stick to military rifles too, but could not pass this one up. Thought is was a military converted (and may still be), but had to have one to show off with my Martinis and Peabody. Should get it soon and then the fun of getting it making smoke.



Download Attachment:
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Download Attachment:
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Ross

"The problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein



PeterS
Gunboards Super Premium Member



Germany
344 Posts
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 12:16:34 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by dg13

Some pictures of a Werder from the 9th Jager. Prussians lost a battle in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Because this rifle was captured by the French in was not around in Baveria to be converted to the mauser round. It is in original unmodified condition which is very rare indeed.


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got today a unaltered Werder, direct fro9m France..., marked 9th Jaeger, too.

Serialnumber 2598....

Is Yours in the same range?

best regads

Peter


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 8:53:09 PM
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Mine is #1067x. So a little higher number than your's. Yours is the 3rd 9th Jaeger rifle known in the world!
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 7:19:11 PM
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In researching info on citizen resistance in Germany during WW2, I came across this amazing reference to Werders; “Bis zum Ende des 2. Weltkriegs 1945 war die Wehr mit dem sogenannten Werdergewehr ausgerüstet. Sie fielen der totalen Entwaffnung durch die Amerikaner zum Opfer. Die Gewehre wurden vor der Kirche aufgestapelt, mit Benzin übergossen und verbrannt. Heute ist die Wehr mit einem Schweizer Infanteriegewehr Modell 1911 ausgestattet.”

Events like this across Bavaria could explain the remarkable rarity of the various Werdergewehrs. Perhaps PeterS could give us an accurate translation but the gist of the text from my college German is “Up to the end of World War 2 in 1945, the resistance was equipped with so-called Werdergewehrs. They fell victim to total disarmament by the Americans. The rifles were stacked before the church, poured over and burned with gasoline. Today the resistance is equipped with a Swiss infantry rifle model 1911.”

If interested the link is: http://www.buergerwehr-dietenheim.de/Texte/Die Uniform der Historischen BW .htm



WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 7:54:53 PM
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Wehr in the context of the cited source here is short for Burgerwehr, not resistance; it is sometimes translated as city militia. Originally the Burgerwehr had some real local military responsibilities but gradually evolved into purely ceremonial organisations with no serious responsibilities for defense. Their weapons - if functional at at all - were almost invariably obsolete antiques. A number of German cities still have Burgerwehr units, usually attired in some sort of 19th Century uniform and carrying muskets.
As far as the Occupation forces were concerned, little or no exception was made for antique firearms; all were to be surrendered.

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Edited by - WaPrüf2 on 04/17/2007 7:57:28 PM


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 9:03:09 PM
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Sorry if this if off the topic but I find this interesting, especially in light of a better translation. Can one infer, from your comment on the link, that the city militia of Deitenheim in 1945 possessed and were disarmed of Werdergewehrs. This is the last question I have concerning this, I promise!


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 9:27:03 PM
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Here is a quick pic of my 1874 Werder Gendarmeriegewehr while I have the time.

Download Attachment:
157.33 KB


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 12:21:39 AM
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Vespahil: Yes. But if you are attempting to attribute "citizen resistance" (whatever you mean by that) to the Deitenheim Burgerwehr there is nothing in the cited source which implies that they
put up any kind of resistance. If they were incorporated into the Volkssturm that is another matter, but that is not specified. Since they are still in existence a direct inquiry to them might be worthwhile.

Author Topic Page: 1 2 of 2
angst017
Starting Member



1 Posts
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 2:52:04 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by dg13

Mine is #1067x. So a little higher number than your's. Yours is the 3rd 9th Jaeger rifle known in the world!
dg13

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Hello,
i have another one, # 5793, and i´m pleased about werder collectors !
( i live in bavaria )




dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 7:03:35 PM
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angst017
That makes 4 known in the world! I'm glad to have found one!
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 8:56:44 PM
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A Gendarmerie Werder with about 80% finish and what may have been an original sling just sold for $1525 (including auctioneer's commission) in NH.


dg13
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
822 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 02:04:58 AM
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The Gendarmeri carbine I have has no blueing left or rather-I think it was made in Belgium in the white.
dg13

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"One Nation UNDER GOD"
"IN GOD WE TRUST"


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 09:53:26 AM
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Years ago I saw a pair of them offered as a lot; both were nickle plated and had Belgian proofmarks.


WaPrüf2
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
935 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 11:39:15 PM
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The M69uM without rod offered on Gunbroker sold for $2,000 today.


Vespaphil
Starting Member



USA
7 Posts
Posted - 08/10/2007 : 12:11:58 AM
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Hello all,
Been watching with interest. Just my humble opinion but I think a couple of folks ended up with great deals. I recall in 2004 a very nice Gendarmeriegewehr auctioned by HERMANN HISTORICA Munich sold for approx. 2000 Euros. I know mine has provided many hours of personal pleasure in addition to close inspection opportunities for many who would otherwise never had contact with one. Well worth the price!
 

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Werder Saga

Gentlemen,

We are conducting an ongoing research on the M/69 Werder and a question that has been puzzlng us is that a limited quantity of early issue unaltered M/69 Werders were left in the white. Unaltered M/69 Werders are generally encountered having been blued. When the Werder was modified for the M/71 Patrone it was blued.

It is conceivably possible that early M/69 Werders were hurriedly issued and therefore were left in the white, but this cannot be substantiated.

Guy and Leonard A-R-West
 

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An unaltered M69 rifle was recently sold off an internet dealer's site for $3,5K.
 

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Werders

I've always like the Werder, and if recent auctions are any evidence, are certainly bringing some premium prices. Of the last three I've seen, two were the Aptiertes, and went for $2,500 each, and recently a rare, unmodified went for $3,500. I have four Aptiertes and a nM made by Steyr.
 

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Werder M/69 fixed bayonet test

Gentlemen,

Continuing the theme, an unaltered bench rested 'Rückladungsgewehr Muster 1869' (Breech-loading rifle Model 1869), marked 5th Jaeger with an original bayonet (Infanterie-Seitengewehr 69), marked for the 9th Jaeger undergoing fixed bayonet evaluation. A small amount of fouling can be seen the back of the blade near the muzzle. When fixed the heavy M/69 Infanterie-Seitengewehr 69 made the rifle became cumbersome and the effect predictable as its mass exaggerated by the change of centre of gravity and right bias caused the shots to throw to the left approximately 200mm at 100m when in the standing and kneeling positions. The bayonet required judicious cleaning and oiling before replacing it in its leather scabbard otherwise rust quickly resulted.

Also attached an illustration created of a soldier of the 5th Jaeger battalion armed with the rifle featured for this evaluation.

The M/69 set a precedence in that it was the first time in the Bavarian Army (and even the German army which later simulated this with the Commission ‘88 rifle) that infantrymen and Jaeger carried the same arm.



Guy and Leonard A-R-West
 

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Some recent Werder observations

1. An M69uM with an added safety which blocks the hammer was recently sold off a US website. It was full length and marked to a Jägerbataillon and was proofed crown/V. The added safeties are apparently aftermarket alterations, and a number of rifles have turned up with the safety, with the barrel shortened (eliminating the bayonet stud), rod shortened proportionally, and with JB unit marks and proofed crown/V; these apparently are the origin of the notion that there was a Jäger version of the Werder...
2. An unaltered M69 is currently offered on a German dealer's website, asking price 7,200 Euros.
3. I have examined the unaltered M69 recently sold here in the US and referenced above. It is blued, retains the original rear sight, chambering, rod, etc.; but is peculiar in that there are none of the usual Bavarian acceptance stamps on the wood with no appearance of them having been removed; the unit stamp may have been scrubbed and the buttplate then blued/reblued; there is no external SN, and no dates of manufacture/issue on the rear of the receiver; if present at all they may have been carefully scrubbed off. The usual GF stamps are present; small components have the usual sub-contractor stamps; the lockwork components are SN 19787.
 

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M/69 Werder

Gentlemen,

The safety lever on the M/69 was added after they had been mustered out of service. Below is a passage taken from our work on the M/69 system concerning functioning of the standard safety:-

Safety

Although there is no safety catch per se, the rifle can be safely carried loaded at half-****. This can be accomplished in two ways:-



1. at full-****: by letting the hammer down to half-**** and re-cocking, simultaneously pushing the ejector-lever. The breech-block drops slightly, locking both trigger and ejector lever.



2. with hammer at fired position and the breech-block down: carefully pulling the hammer to half-**** and pushing the ejector-lever forward, whereupon the breech-block drops slightly as an indicator, locking both trigger and ejector lever. At half-**** the cartridge cannot be accidentally ejected.



To release, the hammer is pulled fully back to full-****. The rifle is then ready for firing. If the rifle was to accidentally fall, the hammer could not make contact with the firing pin.



Regarding acceptance markings, again a passage taken from our work:-



The right of the butt is marked with the Bavarian military acceptance stamp: Royal Bavarian crown over crossed swords and sceptre (Stempel der Zeughaus-Hauptdirektion). Very few markings are found on the rifle, the serial number is only applied to the left barrel octagon, receiver, side of the lock-plate, inside of the trigger guard and stock butt under the military acceptance stamp. The Bavarian proof mark (Beschußstempel) 'G.F.' (Gewehrfabrik, Amberg) is stamped on top of the barrel octagon; chamber and under the butt behind the swivel anchor. When absorbed into Prussian service butts were over stamped with Prussian acceptance markings. All Jäger and infantry were equipped with the same rifle.


Basic unit marks (Truppenstempel) were initially stamped by the armourer on the tang of the butt-plate. Our rifle is marked for the 5th jäger bataillion which was founded on the 1st of January 1851 and was renamed 2nd jäger bataillon on the 1st October 1878, subsequently incorporated into the Königlich Bayerisches 19th. Infanterie-Regiment (König Humbert 1 von Italian) on the 1st October 1900. The bataillion frequently changed garrison: Würzburg, Forchheim, Frankfurt/M, Aschaffenburg, Straubing, Speyer, Zweibücken and Aschaffenburg.

The jägers were special troops which, in Germany, initially were recruited from forestry administration personnel. Although the jäger were trained and employed like normal infantry, their shooting instruction was more intense and precise and they were adapted for action in difficult terrain such as forest areas.



Hope the above has added more understanding to the fascinating subject of the M/69.



Guy and Leonard A-R-West
 

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For a first-class discussion of the Werder system and its development extensively quoting archival sources see: Hans Reckendorf, Die bayrischen Handfeuerwaffen 1800-1875, Selbstverlag Reckendorf, Dortmund, 1998, pp.207-242.
 

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I'm curious as to who got the Werder that Kris Gasior just listed recently?
 
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