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I'm new to collecting and don't want to start a flame war about MM. I was just wondering how you know when you run across a MM from someone other than the original seller.

Do they sell K98s as well as M48? Do they have any special markings?

Thanks!
 

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MM's k98's are fairly easy to spot if they are in the condition that they were issued.
The bolts will be "in the white", polished steel rather than blued.
The stocks will look bleached out and sanded, nowhere near original German issue.
The ONE I handled at a show also had clear slime applied to the stock, but this may have been done by the owner rather than MM.
 

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There is only one way to tell a Mitchell's.

Look at the import stamp on the front of the barrel. It will have MM CA.

You cannot tell if a rifle is a Mitchell's by the parts or stock, since they can be replaced in ten minutes and any combination imaginable could be used.

While its true that Mitchell's K98s have certain characteristics, it is not a sure tell.

Also, Mithchell's M48s also have certain characteristics, but some do not have sanded stocks and pimped up parts.
Some are all original from the factory. Mithchells has a contract with the factory for new rifles.
I recently found one in our shop that looked all original in perfect unissued cond. from the factory. I was suprised to see the MM import stamp.

The MM on the barrel at least shows for certainty that it is a Mitchell's imported barrel and probably receiver.

Mitchell's M48s are a different ball game than the K98s.

Most, probably not all M48s from Mithchell's are new from the factory and a good percentage have sanded stocks.
Some have incorrect parts, probably due the crack team of sanders not replacing the correct parts when they are tore down for sanding.

Otherwise they are NIB M48s with no history at all. Other than sitting in a warehouse waiting to be shipped to the U.S.

All MM M48s and variations I have seen over the years, have had exc. bores and most make great shooters.

CDNN at one time had new MM M48s for half the price MM charged. They were a good buy for shooters. New bores. Some had sanded stocks of course.


Finding a Mitchell's M48 that has not had the stock sanded and the parts right, is not so common. They are out there and are no different than any other unissued import rifles except the price and MM stamped on the barrel. These also can come in any of the models, M48A, M48, M48B, M48BO.

K98s are obviously different. Not for collectors, very incorrect.
It would be nice if they did have unissued K98s with new bores, but they do not.

Buy the rifle not the story. Mitchells's as we all know are the masters of hype and B.S. Enough debate on that to fill up volumes.
However MM has made millions over the years and they are not about to stop.

MM M48s are a favorite for converting to scoped M48s "sniper" rifles. Using the Zrak mounts and scopes. SInce they are already buggered up and they are great shooters with new bores in gen. Kinda like, when handed lemons, make lemonade.

If you do see a M48 with a MM stamp on the barrel for sale, it is prudent to check out every part on it to be correct. Hopeless for a K98, but some of the M48s are OK if you can get it cheap.

K98 Mitchells are not for collectors.

MM M48s are in gen not for collectors because of the sanded stocks, but there are some that are original and no different than any other NIB M48 and prices now are very close to the same. Unisued M48s are very hard to find at the moment.

Please, lets not get into the MM bashing. It never ends. They are what they are period.
The info. is out there for anyone to see and make their own decision.
 

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So are you telling me they are churning these M48's out new as we speak? Interesting I thought they had tapped into some that were made 50 years ago and cleaned them up and sold them.

I have a MM M48 I did not buy it from them I bought it second hand but it looks brand new, that would explain why it looks so new, I guess that would also explain why the serial number starts with an M...
 

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No the only ones they are cranking out new are the "Tanker Carbines" and maybe some stuff I haven't heard of. The factory web page is available to everyone who is interested.

Mitchell's M48s are were made fifty or so years ago and in storage since then

Did not mean to imply that the plant is cranking them out new now.

If interested in mfgr dates.
You will have to do the research yourself on what years the M48s and then the later M48A, M48B, M48BO were made. There is sticky on it at Paralaxe's. Dates range from around 47 to late 50s or so.

The S/Ns do not have an M in front of them on the ones from years ago.

If you can give some specifics on where the M is in relation to the original S/N on M48s.

This may be a new thing they are doing.
Is the M in front of the old S/N on the right side of the receiver or has there been a new S/N stamped on at import with an M as prefix? The stampings with new S/Ns is common on M/Ns and some other Milsurps, but not on M48s.

Or is this something MM is doing to the K98s they are hawking now days?

I have two MM M48s in front of me and the only stampings other than factory S/N without an M is the import stamping on the front of the barrel MM CA

Please give specific info. on where the M is on your M48 MM. Pictures would help.
 

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On mine it's in front of the serial number on the right side of the receiver and looks more like a W if it's a M it's upside down, however on the import stamp it is MM...
 

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That would be correct. I just called around and no one has a MM with an M on the S/N. Called three guys who have the MM sniper M48s.
So it is safe to assume its not a good indicator when trying to determine if a M48 is a MM.

Also the "Tanker Carbine" is the M63 and by all indications is a new product. The story on MM site is total B.S. As to be expected from MM.

They were in all likely hood cranked out for the American consumers.

Probably a usuable rifle for some shooters, but has no collector value, for the original type of collectors. There are some folks who collect the abaritions and knock offs. The old Enfield knock off from Golden State, Gibbs, etc. are a good point. They are now worth more than originals in some cases.
The M63s look like the Dutch Police carbines from a distance.

In any case, this is some info. to help out those who may want to know.
 

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I haven't seen any evidence of parts guns in M48s at anytime in the last years.

What is the source of that information and what are the import stamps of the parts M48s you have seen?

Branko or Nothernug have not ever mentioned parts M48s being sold in the U.S. that I am aware of.

Branko is the Plant historian among other things. The difinative expert on M48s.

However as with all things Milsurp. Nothing is written in stone, but I would have to see some evidence to back up a statement about parts guns being cobled together in M48s.

Now with K98s it is probably true. IMO
 

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Please, lets not get into the MM bashing. It never ends. They are what they are period.
The info. is out there for anyone to see and make their own decision.
Sadly, the "information" (i.e., carnival barking) that Mitchells provides is misleading, which does not allow people to make informed decisions. The "bashing" is really just the response to the carnival barking. Equal time so people get the truth and can make informed buying decisions.
 

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I haven't seen any evidence of parts guns in M48s ....
....but I would have to see some evidence to back up a statement about parts guns being cobled together in M48s.
I have seen them....but won't buy one just to be able to take pictures to prove it to you.....buffed out numbers, renumbered parts...sanded up stocks....Yech!
 

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Yes, I agree with you Hambone. The info. I was refering to is the stuff I posted about what I know about the M48s. Some are orignal M48s, but only a few.

Info. might be helpful to some who find a MM at a gunshop etc..
Buying one straight from MM at their prices is not advised, but a second hand one in exc. cond. if it has not been sanded could be a decent buy. Specially now days, since they are scarce. In M48s only, not K98s.

Only pointing out that they do have a use and to ignore the MM hype.



Almost everything MM advertises is B.S.

Also I think a lot of folks are confused about the M48 and K98 differences because of MM hype.

Their M48s are sometimes just unissued M48s.

Not so with the K98s wich are really hyped up and grossly incorrect.
 

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I got mine second hand from my dealer here in town for half what MM ask for them, I bought it for a deer and pig gun...
 

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I haven't seen any evidence of parts guns in M48s at anytime in the last years.

What is the source of that information and what are the import stamps of the parts M48s you have seen?

Branko or Nothernug have not ever mentioned parts M48s being sold in the U.S. that I am aware of.

Branko is the Plant historian among other things. The difinative expert on M48s.

However as with all things Milsurp. Nothing is written in stone, but I would have to see some evidence to back up a statement about parts guns being cobled together in M48s.

Now with K98s it is probably true. IMO
Originally posted by nothernug (ParallaxBill's Yugoslavian Mauser Forum)

M48 "parts guns" or rifles put together from left over parts particularly for the American milsurp market.

This question comes up periodically. While I haven't doubted that it may be true, I've seen no verification or sources given.
So I emailed Branko on the subject (and asked if I may quote him) citing my unissued M48bo as an example.
Concerning the existence of such parts guns he said yes there were. He also stated that all parts were made before 1960.
He gave no details as to models, serial number range or anything else.
So, there's a source for the basic statement.

update: for more on "parts guns" see "addendum II" this post:

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/10116

Addendum II, on Yugo reliability & "sticky bolt syndrome...
Many of us have experienced difficulty with M48s and naturally wonder about the reputation for reliability clearly presented here. Branko offered this...
"All original M24, M48 and M48A in military use don’t have "sticky bolt syndrome." I know, Zastava only have problem named ''hammered bolt'' in experimental phase with AMR .50 M93 Black Arrow. My thought is: sticky bolt syndrome are related to export parts guns, assembled from original receivers with crest and pattern designations (M48, M48A) and various parts. Also, I don’t know characteristic of Turk, Romanian or other exotic manufacturers. Yugo rifles built around Yugo, Czech and German ammo 7.92x57 mm (''S'' or ''sS'' bullet types)."
Branko

Clearly this problem was not encountered by the Yugo military. Probably, besides the "part gun" issues, any such problems encountered were either corrected at the factory before issue or if problems were encountered at the unit level the weapon was either turned in for repair or exchanged. It is clear the Yugos fired their weapons much more than the U.S. does.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/9890?page=1

I think it's on the Zastava website that they have a "partnership" with MM. When the US market demand exceeds the unmolested M48, M48A, M48B, M48BO supply, they start cobbling them together from parts, and also, come up with the M48/63 Tanker. As we've seen in the MM NRA ads, the k98s are clearly cobbled together, in some cases with M48 parts. Also, a MM M48 series rifle may not be original either, may not come from 50 years of arsenal storage nor meet Yugoslave mil standards.
 

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tjg79 Thanks for the reminder.

That post is many years old and I remember it now.

The 'parts guns" Bill was refering to with 'sanded" stocks are not what Branko is talking about. There are no newer imports coming in as parts guns with sanded stocks, other than MM.
The "parts gun" thing has been going on for many years in the M48s with mixing the milled and stamped parts.
They are not "parts guns" in the sense that RC K98 are put together from used parts etc.
The M48s had parts from the diff. models, milled or stamped, put on them at the factory.

They have been coming in this way for so many years that I have become complacent and forgot about Branko's post.
In that context a lot of the M48s that went into the U.S. market were parts guns.

Sanding a stock is cost prohibitive for any importer and MM are the only ones doing it.

Sanded stocks are not an indication of a "parts gun". Sanded stocks, if not a MM, is an indication that the owner actually shot his M48 and didn't like getting splinters in his hand from shooting.
A lot of factory new M48s have very rough wood. Some sand them for cosmetic reasons. Some are fairly smooth, but a lot have about a 20 grit cut.

We have never seen 'buffed" out numbers on an M48. The numbers on the trigger housing and floorplates are sometimes lined out and re numbered. Only on Yugo K98s have had 'buffed" or scrubbed out numbers from what I have seen.

Stocks with S/N on the unissued rifles are never messed with. Only on sanded out stocks from MM.

I think the posts on parts gun from years ago was more about the mismatched stamped and milled parts found on some factory rifles.
There is a difference in M48, M48A, M48 B, and M48BOs in stamped and milled parts.
That was what the posts were initially about and ended up with Branko's e mail about different parts being put on rifle destined for the U.S. to meet market demands.

The stamped and Milled parts were at times mixed and matched to fill orders. Hardly a reason to denegrade the rlfles as lowly parts guns.
These are also new rifles. No history and the only battle history for the used ones, were very unfortunate genocidle conflicts. So historically these rifles are not like K98s.
Still, they are great shooters and very solid and accurate rifles.

M48s only have the S/N on the side of the receiver, which is never messed with. Sometimes hard to read and look like the guy stamping them was drunk, but what the hell.

The crests have some variations in them also.

Other than that the trigger guard and floor plate and bolt are the only numbered parts on the rifle. Some have the S/N on the buttstock.

So the bottom line is the the floorplates and trigger guards have lined out numbers on some rifles.

Bolts have been known to be one or two numbers off, even on NIB rifles from the factory. So quality control was a bit lax that day.

IMO not enough to relegate them to lowly parts guns or denegrade the M48.

All of the RC K98s I have had are real parts guns.

I just recently found a CE K98 bring back no import stamp that has almost all matching parts on it. Came out of a estate sale. Mint bore.

Every piece matches, except the front band.

I suppose some would call it a "parts gun" also.

Getting to far OT here. I think the orignal posters questions were answered.
 

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We have never seen 'buffed" out numbers on an M48. The numbers on the trigger housing and floorplates are sometimes lined out and re numbered.
So the bottom line is the the floorplates and trigger guards have lined out numbers on some rifles.

Bolts have been known to be one or two numbers off, even on NIB rifles from the factory. So quality control was a bit lax that day.
Not sure who "WE" is....but I have clearly seem MM with remnants of old bolt numbers showing and clearly having been renumbered to match the reciever, and trigger housing with indentations from the removal of old numbers, and new numbers applied. I am not refering to factory mistakes, or poorly applied numbers. I am talking about parts being renumbered to make the rifle match.
 

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From the Zastava website:

http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/english/civilni.htm


ZASTAVA LK M48/24, M48/63


ZASTAVA LK M48/24, M48/63
This family of sporting rifles ZASTAVA is made on the basis of refurbished military rifle M48 in two versions M48/24 and M48/63.

Specific features:
  • Front sight: closed
  • Rear sight: leaf
MODEL: ZASTAVA LK M48/24, ZASTAVA LK M48/63

Cat. Number: 16101, 16151
Calibre: 7.9mm (5)
Barrel length: 550mm, 443mm
Mechanism: rotating bolt
Weight: 3.600g, 3.200g
Total length: 1.090mm, 945mm
Stock: selected beech
Finish: blue/chrome plated


From the MM website:


http://www.mauser.org/rifles/m63%20tanker/index.htm

These M63 Tankers are brand-new rifles produced with all new parts, using modern materials and methods. A foreign government had placed an order with the Serbian factory, but had failed to take delivery. Mitchell’s was able to contract for the entire lot and bring it to the United States market at the very attractive price of only $495.

Zastava is MMs contractor. They are still refurbishing M48s & K98s to all matching numbers. I think I recall seeing MM NRA ads for K98s with straight bolts in the white just like the one pictured above. MM says they're original or new; Zastava says they're refurbs.
 

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Not sure who "WE" is....but I have clearly seem MM with remnants of old bolt numbers showing and clearly having been renumbered to match the reciever, and trigger housing with indentations from the removal of old numbers, and new numbers applied. I am not refering to factory mistakes, or poorly applied numbers. I am talking about parts being renumbered to make the rifle match.
Yep. I've seen plenty of these at shows that have been ground, renumbered, and pimped. Where did the Mitchell's frankenshine rifle get those numbers? Who knows. That's like the mystery of what stinks behind the weeds in the drainage ditch. Don't know, don't care, and really don't want to waste my time trying to find out. ;)
 
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