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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Has anyone tried the Hornady 140g hpbt vintage match in their M96? I bought some to try and went to the range yesterday. Shot for comparison to the other commercial ammo I had, i.e. ppu sp, fmj and the 120g hpbt match. The Hornady shot the best group by far, all four in the 10 ring at 100 yards, before I noticed that the cases were bulging just above the case head. Oops! I figured this ammo was made for the M96, but in checking my new Lyman 49th, none of their loads for 140g hpbt go to the 2600fps that Hornady lists for this ammo. Thoughts?
 

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2600fps is nothing too excessive for me, so I do not think its loaded super high (if listed FPS is true).
things to check:
correct headspace?
new unfired case/round diameter in comparison to the 'non-bulging' cases (basically is the new brass within the spec)?
OAL?
true bullet diameter (.264 or .268)?
Primers are flattened/show pressure signs?
How was the extraction (smooth/sticky)?
How was the chambering (smooth/tight)?
Finally, did you consider actually setting up a chronograph yourself and metering this particular load yourself?

I know there were multiple threads regarding this particular ammo in the past year or two and I think its a first thread reporting any problem...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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Pictures show left to right, unfired Hornady, fired in M96, fired in M38 and a ppu sp fired in M96. insertion and extraction were normal and smooth. The M96 has a matching bolt but I haven't ever checked headspace or chamber dimensions. Thanks Kaifs!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Good advice. I did email them from their website this am, but will followup with a call later today and get back to you all when I know something. I put only about half the shots I made with PPu Sp in the black at 100yds, so the difference was significant. I am not a good shot, but that Mojo sight I put on is great for shooting at NRA military style targets.

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the info, Dale. I only have a vernier caliper, not that accurate, but here goes. 3 significant figure only. Ppu sp measures coal- 2.98", case head(not rim)- .47", bullet at case mouth - .266, bulge - .472". Hornady measures coal - 3.11", case head -.467", bullet - .264", bulge - .472". If anyone else has measured these with more accurate caliper, feel free to confirm or dispute my numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Just checked email and Hornady did respond. But too late in the day to call them. They indicated that there had been no returns on any of their lots. Suggested possible large chamber. Will call them on Monday.
 

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I just measured 5 rounds of M41 from Arsenal 070. Case heads are .474 to .475. Rims vary from .472 to .476.

Prvi case heads are all .475. Rims are .476.

Now, I shoot M96, Husqvarna M38, and CG-63 with a Norma Barrel. But I shoot only Prvi and Swede wooden bullet brass. None of the above symptoms on my brass. BUT, I had a few Remington brass that did swell a bit more and left a ring a few years back. Never used them again. They were undersized cases. The rims were too small to even eject reliably.

Also, about three weeks ago a young man acquired an M96 from me. I shot Prvi in it. No problems. He could not find any Prvi right away. So he bought one box of I think he said Hornady Vintage. When he looked at the brass, it was swollen similar to the pics above. He got Prvi brass in and reloaded a 100 rounds. No more problems.
I also suspect under sized brass from using a common blank for too many calibers. Fine if you don't reload it.
Just my best estimate is all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks everyone for your good input. Getting an accurate caliper is on my list now. Have been considering reloading, so all this is urging me on. Also interesting, won't say good, that someone has had a similar experience with the Hornady. I plan to talk to Hornady on Monday. Will see what they say about undersized case heads on ammo made specifically for older milsurp rifles.
 

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I have shot one box of Hornady Vintage from my CG M38. Cases had the same swelling issues as mentioned by others. All my PPU brass does not show swelling even after 5x reloads. My velocities averaged 2371.8 ft/sec with a high of 2396 ft/ sec but from a shorter barrel that seemed OK to me at the time. Certainly not near the 2600 advertised though. I'm guessing the following: one, the 2600 number came from a modern SAAMI test barrel and not a military chamber. Second, that this stuff is not all that hot but the cases are thin and made to Americanized specs as opposed to the proper spec cases coming from Europe so it's more of a case issue. I have not tried and do not plan to reload any of those Hornady cases.
 

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BM1455. Glad you posted as it reminded me to follow up a bit on what I posted above. The same young man who bought a box of those went with me to our Vintage Bolt Match yesterday. I had given him one of my M96 rifles. An 1899 Oberndorf that is a real shooter. Now, since I shot and know that rifle extremely well, I knew this had nothing to do with that rifle.
But after the Match had completed, he showed me another brass and it turned out he had two Hornady rounds left.
He was still a bit concerned about the 1899. So, I shot those two rounds from a CG-63 that is virtually like new.
Well guess what? Same thing happened. There is no way I think to ever get that brass through a full length resizing die.
For the Match I was using Nosler 140 CC HPBT bullets with a load of 45.5 grs of IMR 7828ssc. The Hornady Vintage
actually gave a bit more recoil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I talked to the Hornady tech rep today. His comments were that I should consider head space and copper in the bore. That would cause over pressures. I asked what their spec dimensions were for there brass and he indicated they were built to. CIP standards. Case head about .475-.476. Both cip and saami list max case/min chamber as .4803. He indicated that this should not be a problem and the ammo is safe to shoot and reload, just resize. It's not highly loaded ammo, in the 45000 ? range. I thanked him and indicated I doubted I would be buying any more of this. I hope this is an accurate description, it's not my intent to disparage Hornady . Just for info.
K
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I forgot I had a set of micrometers in my tool chest, so I used my 1" mic to measure case heads and bulges. So case heads/bulges for ppu sp .478/.478 : Hornady VM .471/.477 : also measured unfired S&B sp .476. Does that sound better?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
All I can say at this point is the same mic and method were used. I am not a reloading guru, just a guy who likes to shoot his swedes with safe commercial ammo. For now just saving brass. I would welcome more authoritative info.
 
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