[Abulg1972]

I recently purchased a Finn M39 (Sako 1944) that's in almost unissued condition. I stripped the rifle last night, and I do not believe there is any arsenal mark on the tang of the receiver. There is some kind of mark, but it's not similar to anything I've been able to find online. Half of me thinks it's just an imperfection in the metal or bluing, but the other half of me thinks that I'm seeing what was at one time an old Izhevsk bow and arrow that's been covered up, ground out, etc. On the right side of the receiver, there's a lower case "a" and the number 25X. On the left side (upper, toward end) of the receiver tang, there's a slanted capital "A". The bottom of the receiver has various marks, which I assume are inspection marks. I've searched everywhere and can find nothing about these marks. Has anyone seen something similar or have any clues? Thanks.

 

[50ydPHIL]

Why does it matter ?
Stampings could be from several countries over several decades.
Finns just re-used them.

Welcome to the Forum.
Let's see pics of the whole rifle.

 

[LostSoul]

My new-to-me M39 has no arsenal marking or year on the tang. From what I understand it's somewhat common.

 

[GaryCCR]

I'd put my money on a well polished/ground Izhevsk. That would make it pre-28. Does it have a stepped tang?

Btw I'm no Mosin or Finn expert. But it is curious.

 

[LVSteve]

Finns scrubbed many a receiver during rebuild. It's just how it is.

 

[JAK~47]

Finns scrubbed many a receiver during rebuild. It's just how it is.

That is how my 41 VKT M39 was.

 

[Porsche]

Welcome to the site.

 

[ptf18]

OP. How did you take such great pictures?

 

[Abulg1972]

OP. How did you take such great pictures?

With my iphone :-D

It it does have a stepped tang.

To whomever asked why it matters ... Just because I am curious about the history of my rifle. It's always cool to know the story of these old milsurps.

 

[AbueloMark]

I don't think there is any evidence that the Finns scrubbed the underside of any tangs. Neither the Americans or the French stamped dates on the undersides of the tangs.

If you can't find any of the accepted US or French markings on other places of the receiver, then likely Russian.

 

[qz2026]

My old eyes are probably seeing things but it sure looks like a badly stamped Imperial Izhevsk stamping on the tang.

 

[AbueloMark]

It does indeed look like a very lightly struck bow and arrow.

 

[50ydPHIL]

To whomever asked why it matters ... Just because I am curious about the history of my rifle. It's always cool to know the story of these old milsurps.

I agree, I'm always curious too.
But most Finns are mix-masters. Interesting to attempt to figure out the history, but many are desperate to own a rare and valuable piece, making mountains out of molehills....
Grinding the underside of the tang changes the bedding geometry a lot. Not the best idea.

My name is at the beginning of my post.

 

[Spaxspore]

i had this same feeling as the OP had when i first got my first m39 and it had a scrubed tang. Heck i could probably dig up the original thread i made about it. Now after being in it for a while.. the receiver maker / date is nice to know. But if its unmarked it doesn't bother me like it used to. Because as 50yrd said.. all finns are mix matched of all kinds of parts and eras.. no sense getting hung up on it; but just to enjoy it for what it is.

 

[RH7777]

There is plenty of info. on the M39s on past posts and also on other forums like Parallax's.

Here is some practical info. from my gun clubs experience with the M39s.

The receivers are M/Ns some are pre 1898 and the M39s with those receivers sold as antiques and needed no ffl to transfer. Not C&R or otherwise, Like Black powder guns not regulated by the ATF.

The date on the new barrels are not used for regulating. The ones with pre 1898 M/N receivers were not regulated by the ATF.

The vendors sold M39s by arsenal stamping on the barrel. Sako,VKT, etc. or SNEAKS with no markings as to mfgr. of the barrel.

The M39s with new barrels are some of the best shooting milsurps ever. Our club members would order them from Pat Burns with new or like new barrels and if possible a pre 1898 receiver, so no transfer fee, they were shipped to the door of non FFL holders.

I had quite a few myself, from Pat, and I had my FFL.

The makers and or dates of the receivers can be seen on the bottom of the tang. The mfgr. of the barrel will be on top of the barrel near the receiver with a date,usually from the forties. People mistake this barrel date with the date of the piece. It is the date the barrel was installed the receivers are refurbed M/N captured or otherwise aquired.

If yours has no markings it is a SNEAK and why the Finns did this can be researched or i'm sure someone will chime in an tell us. I don't have time.

This is from my experience only and I never read the details or history, so there is more info. out there.

I'm sure there are detailed posts on the stampings on the M39, if not here, they will be on Parallaxe's forums.

Not sure, but Pat Burns still has some, but the inventory is very small now. No more of the no FFL needed pieces left according to the site.

It was under Wholesale guns or Pat Burns. I don't have details but he had issues non related to this discussion with the ATF and had to sell off everything.

ON a side note. The M39s used to come from the importer with a arsenal tag with accuracy info. on it.

I never saw any that had the underside of the tang or any other stampings ground off.
The date that some had on the tang was the only reason they could be sold as Antiques with no FFL required to buy.

Also the removal, had they done it, of stampings would not have much affect on the zero, since all of the ones we bought had shims installed on the receiver and sometimes barrel for accuracy, at the time the piece was put together along with the accuracy tag.

Anyone who is not aware. If you take the action out of the stock, be sure to do it on a table and slowly to note were the shimms were installed. They will fall out loosly, no bonding agent on them. Metal shims installed on the trigger guard and or inside the action, tang, etc.

Most, maybe not all had them.

If one does not shoot well that would be the first thing to look at, shims. Also the screw tension on the tang and front band affects accuracy.

 

[AbueloMark]

Isn't the "Sneak" nomenclature something entirely made up in this country. Think about it. Does anyone really think that the Russians would care if 20 years after WWII that the Finns were building bolt-action rifles?

 

[RH7777]

Should add. From my understanding, the Finns used receivers from wherever they could get them.

So stampings could be on them or not. Nothing consistant.

Only the ones stamped pre 1898 could be sold as Antiques. No stampings under the tang to date the receiver would mean it had C&R status. IIRC

The "sneaks" had no mfgr. stampings on the barrels. I don't know about the tang on those.

 

[Spaxspore]

Isn't the "Sneak" nomenclature something entirely made up in this country.

yes that sneak term is the equivalent of the black widow term for BYF Lugers.. marketing for the masses.

 

[RH7777]

Isn't the "Sneak" nomenclature something entirely made up in this country. Think about it. Does anyone really think that the Russians would care if 20 years after WWII that the Finns were building bolt-action rifles?

World politics is a deep subject. Applying local logic is not a good idea. Weapons without origin stampings is not a new thing.

I don't think the Finns gave a crap about what the Russians think.

For that matter, I don't think the rest of the world gives a crap about what a bunch of U.S. collectors think either. They live in a very real world of money and political intrigue.

The only reason any country would give a crap is if there is a market for their wares, real or fake.

The only weapons altered for the U.S. market en mass that I know of are the M/N snipers. When the Ukarinian or Russians figured out there is a huge U.S. market for M/N snipers, real or converted field rifles or not. That is besides the companies here in the U.S. that produced them by the crate full for the market.

It is interesting that the M/N thing probably brought untold thousands into the milsurp hobby. So that is always good.

There are others, but M/N snipers come to mind.



I do not know why they did them, but it is not uncommon to have scrubed guns. Yugo M48s by Zastava made a crap load of them to sell to Egypt without stampings.

They are called BOs. I forget the word they used for it, but translated it meant "without markings" They are sought after by SOME collectors.

Has something to do with politics of the region they are sold to. For whatever reason, some don't want the country of mfgr. known.

I once had a link, several pages on the arms of the former Yugoslavia. Anyone can google and maybe find it.

It is a study in arms of the region and how strange it can get. It is the same with Finns or any other country in that part of the world. Europe and Asia.

It is mind bending the money and people involved in the arms dealing and countries involved etc. Turkey was also a good read.

The intrigues are interesting.


Also a good read on markings of modern weapons would be to check out the Iran arms deal and Central American contra thing. Remember Oliver North and "I don't recall sir" at the senate hearings on the arms thing.

IIRC Isreal supplied some of the arms for deal but they had to be scrubbed or no deal.

It is complicated and as things go for now anyway, scrubbed arms will be out there.


SNEAK may be a handle we made up to describe rifles without markings. It is not a word from Finnland as far as I know.

There are other words to describe rifles with no stampings on them, but SNEAK sounds much more exotic for collectors. Maybe a marketing thing.

Trying to figure that out is like trying to determine how the handle Jungle Carbine got into use to describe a #5MK1 Enfield.

Lots of opinions and tons of pure B.S. no one knows for sure. Except for the guys that used them, who say they never heard of the term before.

So SNEAK works for me. But then I also bought TITO's private hunting M48 in exc. cond. No papers, but nowdays, "don't need no stinking papers" so I am good.

 

[armenjs]

The date on the new barrels are not used for regulating. The ones with pre 1898 M/N receivers were not regulated by the ATF.


Also the removal, had they done it, of stampings would not have much affect on the zero, since all of the ones we bought had shims installed on the receiver and sometimes barrel for accuracy, at the time the piece was put together along with the accuracy tag.

Anyone who is not aware. If you take the action out of the stock, be sure to do it on a table and slowly to note were the shimms were installed. They will fall out loosly, no bonding agent on them. Metal shims installed on the trigger guard and or inside the action, tang, etc.

Most, maybe not all had them.

If one does not shoot well that would be the first thing to look at, shims. Also the screw tension on the tang and front band affects accuracy.

Thanks for sharing. I have john dow as far as M39 goes. no date and a sneak. or sneaky haaah

I bought two from Pat non had any shims and I was careful not to loose them. but still very accurate love them all.