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Help reloading 6.5 jap

4K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  1886lebel 
#1 ·
I was just about to load some 6.5 jap and the lee data says to use 39 grains to start of h4831for a 120 grain bullet. but 39 grains almost fills the cartridge. Is that ok? The max charge of 41 grains doesnt even fit in the case so im not sure if their numbers are too high.
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#6 ·
No, IMR 4831 and H 4831 are not the same, though both now are marketed through Hodgdon. The "Annual Manual" does not have data listed for the 6.5x50 Japanese, but does show data for the .260 Rem.; under that listing they show a maximum charge under a 140 Nosler Partition of 45.7 grains H4831 and 44.0 grains IMR4831. This is NOT a suggested load for your rifle, just pointing out the difference between powder charges in a cartridge of the same bore diameter and roughly similar case capacity.

Mike Venturino, in his book "Shooting World War II Small Arms," says on page 127 that most Arisakas have large chambers, so case life is not great.

120 grains is a bit light for that cartridge; War 2 cartridges were loaded with 139 grainers (and when introduced in 1897 the bullet was a 162-grain roundnose); the point being your rifle might or might not want to zero with the 120's. Neither of the 4831s is optimal (a bit too slow for the case capacity) but can work. Venturino shows 39.0 H4831 under a 140 Hornady Spire Point giving 2,415 fps out of the rifle (31" barrel) and 2,192 fps out of the 19" carbine. Good luck.
 
#22 ·
I try my best to reload to original milspec and use a similar load set. My issue is finding a spitzer (.264, 140gr, flat base) bullet that is NOT a soft point. I’ve had more than one soft nose get boogered up when chambering a round. If loading isn’t smooth, I’ll pull the bullet and some times find the tip bent. If I don’t catch it, I assume those rounds are the “fliers” that go off target.

Does anyone have a source of 139-140 grain, .264 flat base bullets that are NOT soft points??

Thanks!
 
#8 ·
Thats thats good info. I really just wanted to use this old h4831 i have but since it fills the entire case idk lol. Ive never had a case fill completely up like that. Mayb ill try to reduce it to 36,37 grains and just try it. I have brand new 3031 and 4064 too but just wanted to use up the old powder. I deff need to get more bullets tho. I will try to get 140 grain round nose flat base
 
#10 ·
I've loaded some long tracer bullets before where the IMR 4895 propellant crunched a bit when seating the bullets. That was a bit weird but the propellant weight was at the lower end of the range and the rounds performed fine. The point is, it's OK if the propellant fills the case completely as long as you are using the correct weights and type.
 
#16 ·
The Type 30 ( 1897) used the 162 grain RN, the Type38 ( 1905) used the Spitzer 139grn.
Third after France ( Balle D, 1898) Germany (S Patrone, 1903-05) and Before US ( M1906)
We are making a 162 Profile Italian in 6,5mm (6,72 bullet Diameter) RN, recessed base, in solid CNCBrass...it works in Carcanos,( Further tests when rain lets up) and Will load in Dutch, Greek, and Japanese chambers; still got to try Swede and Vergueiro. CNC weight is 136 grain...Testing in Good condition Milsurps later as the Rain Eases and Flood on Range goes down ( Big Wet in Qld)
Release in Dec-January....US buyers need ATFE Form 6 for import of " Ammunition Components"
Best Group Buy, or Dealer ( lots of 500 or 1000) for shipping and documentation.
WLYK when ready to ship.

Doc AV
AVBTechServices
Brisbane Australia
 
#18 · (Edited)
Here is my load data for the 6,5x50SR mm that simulate the original ammo specifications of the different service bullets, Spitzer and Round Nose the Japanese used.
I tested these in my Japanese Type 38 Rifle (三八式歩兵銃 / sanhachi-shiki hoheijū) No Series / Serial Number 55XXXX that was made at the Imperial Japanese Army Tokyo Arsenal (日本帝国陸軍東京砲兵工廠 / Nippon Teikoku Rikugun Tokyo Hōheikōshō) located in Koishikawa (小石川), that was a bring-back by my grandfather Captain Vernon C. Hoyt that he had acquired in Japan in 1946. Each test load was fired in two successive five-shot strings from the prone supported using a front rest at a range of 200 meters using a Beta Master Shooting Chrony® chronograph which was located 15 feet ahead of the muzzle to measure the velocity of the bullet. All test loads above were developed at the Albuquerque Shooting Range Park which is located at an elevation of 6,009 feet above sea level.
I personally found that my particular rifle does not like boat-tailed bullets, they just do not group or shoot well at all.

"All reloading data contained on this post is to be use at your own risk and any failures, mishaps resulting from this data will not be directed towards me or this group”, again these are be “USED AT YOUR OWN RISK", this should be used as a guide to help develop your own loads. I am not responsible for any accidents for using this reloading data.

6,5 x 50 SR mm Japanese Loads:
Cartridge Case: Norma or Privi Partizan Užice
Cartridge Case Length: 1.980
Primers Used: CCI Large Rifle # 200, CCI Large Rifle BR2, CCI Large Rifle # 34, Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle, Winchester Large Rifle / Standard

Spitzer Bullet: Original bullet was.262 diameter, weighing 139 gr.(9,0g) with a flat-base

Hornady .264 140 grain ‘Interlock’ Spitzer Soft-Point / Flat-Base (BC: .490 / SD: .287)
Nosler .264 140 grain ‘Partition’ Spitzer Soft-Point / Flat-Base (BC: .498 / SD: .287)
Speer .264 140 grain ‘Hot-Core’ Spitzer Soft-Point / Flat-Base (BC: .498 / SD: .287)

Powder:
IMR 3031 / 31.5 grs. = 2500 FPS / 770 MPS
IMR 4064 / 33.0 grs. = 2500 FPS / 770 MPS
IMR 4166 / 34.0 grs. = 2500 FPS / 770 MPS
IMR 4831 / 37.3 grs. = 2350 FPS (Reduced Gunso Load)
H 4831 / 37.3 grs. = 2350 FPS (Reduced Gunso Load)
Overall Length: 2.985 to 2.990 (original length of complete cartridge is 2.995)
Note: When using this OL, the Hornady .264 140 grain ‘Interlock’ Spitzer Soft-Point / Flat-Base will not be to crimping groove on them, they will be much longer outside of the cartridge case.

Round Nose Bullet: Original bullet was.262 diameter, weighing 160 to 163 gr. (10,4 g) with a flat-base ...
The Japanese military switched from round nose bullet to the spitzer bullet in September of 1907

Hornady .264 160 gr. 'Interlock' Round Nose Soft-Point / Flat-Base (BC: .283 / SD: .328)
Norma .264 156 gr. Round Nose Soft Point / Flat-Base (BC: .283 / SD: .328)

Powder:
IMR 3031 / 30.7 grs. = 2300 FPS / 701 MPS
IMR 4064 / 32.1 grs. = 2300 FPS / 701 MPS
Overall Length: The original length of complete cartridge made by Japanese was 2.995 and the ones made by the British by Royal Laboratory and Kynoch was 2,955
I could not get to these OL with my seater die (RCBS) with the plug all the way up in it so my OL is shorter but is spot on to the Norma OL of the commercial ammo they sell for the 156 gr. Round Nose Soft Point which is 2,855

200 meters on 6/19/21, the target was a steel plate painted with a humanoid silhouette on it. I was using Speer .264 diameter 140 grain ‘Hot-Core’ Spitzer Soft-Point / Flat-Base bullet loaded with 31.5 grs. of IMR 3031

 
#20 ·
Thats for all ur help and info. These 6.5 arisakas have been the most difficult to load for me lol. The ppu bullets dont wanna seat right. So i had to make them a lil shorter than i wanted. Yesterday the bullets kept getting stuck in the die! Ive literally never had that happen lol. I think its cuz i was trying to fill the case with too much powder. Well not according to the load data. It was only 39 grains. With 36 grains of that old H4831 i got a velocity of 1918 w/120 grain bullet
 
#21 ·
Not sure what's going on there. IMHO the 6.5 is very easy to load for. It was actually it and the 30/40 Krag that got me into hand loading, as both are calibers I wanted to shoot a lot and for cheap. Its straight forward loading, I'd suggest checking your powders, stick to proven recipes and maybe give up using that old powder if its unknown data and filling the case up too much. IMR's work extremely well for me in this caliber. Good luck!
 
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#23 ·
Thanks yea i think the powder being filled too high had something to dowith it. Or cuz those ppu bullets kinda suck. Ive shot most of the rifles i got recently. They all shoot pretty well but that 8x56 carbine i just got with the ppu bullets i saw they were tumbling a lil bit. Im sure if i had some good round nose bullets in 330 diameter theyd work fine. I have a mosin that tumbles with spitzer bullets but round nose work fine. Im really happy cuz that berthier i got from rti was really rusty but it has a verynice bore. And shooting it got all that rust out of the bore. I even wrapped my bronze brush in big frontier metal wool to clean it even more
 
#24 ·
Too Much and Too Wrong Powder!!!
The 6,5 X50SR T38, was developed at an early stage of Nitro Powder Development.
Before WWI, most Rifle Powders were Fast, Hot and Erosive. By WWI, Powders had developed to " cooler", and slower Burning, more adapted to Rifle use.
Replacing the early ",Type B" powder, by the newer " "Type S" before the 1920s, this was a Powder similar to Dupont's later IMR 3031.
Long use over 40 years in Handloading by myself ( from 1967, first T38 Carbine, and using #3031, gave proper Velocities, accuracy, and recoil with 139gn Flat Base ( == original T38 Bullet).
Powder density at 30-32 grains fills case to bullet Base without crushing ( important).
Any slower powder, such as 4831, which requires heavier loads, is a bomb waiting to happen. The T38 is a very strong sction, but nothing can defeat Stupid.
The only other powder good for 6,5 Arisaka is IMR 4895, or its equivalent, Hodgdon 4895 ( Aussie AR2206H), again 30-32 grains, Max 34.
Good safe Load, PPU cases ( Norma are incorrect SAAMI undersized. Remember Japanese chambers are " relieved" to facilitate Chambering AND Extraction in Battle Conditions ( Mud, Blood and Beer).
Doc AV
Reloading Monitor.
 
#25 ·
B powder was a flat stick powder and S powder was a flat flake powder.
I only use IMR 4831 or H 4831 to simulate the GUNSO reduced load using 140 gr. bullets, it works well for this particular load only, pushing it to 2500 FPS just was not feasible or accurate at all, it actually lost velocity during my testing. As DocAV said it is a slower type powder.

Patrick
 
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#27 ·
For a 120 grain bullets would 33-35 grains of imr 3031 be a full charge? I got some loaded but im not gonna shoot for awhile so im just wondering if i should load the rest of the box with 33 grains or maybe 34,35?
 
#28 ·
Do you have any reloading manuals with data on the 6.5 Japanese cartridge or are you just “winging it”? Earlier in this thread is a picture of Hornady data and 33 grains of 3031 would be OVER THE MAX load for that bullet!

Trial and error is no way to reload. It is a science. Books / reading / understanding …is the way to go. You will have far fewer questions and much better results.
 
#29 ·
I have like 5 books none of them give any data on 6.5 jap. 33 grains was for a 140 grain bullet tho. Since my bullet is lighter i would need to use more powder. I still dont really understand y it isnt the opposite lol. The lee die data doesnt say anything about 3031. But i have another thing i found online wen i was doing research ill post a pic of it.
Font Material property Number Screenshot Parallel
 
#30 · (Edited)
I was just loading up some. I still have 25+cases i can load. These have 35 grains imr 3031. One has 33 grains. Another left over from testing has 36 grains H4831 which i dont like because the bullets dont seat unless i use the min load. Any more and the bullet wont seat and get crimped and will even get stuck in the die! And i have to unstrew it and jar it to get it to fall out
Wood Gas Paint Table Box

I put all my ammo/cases in either 308 or 30-06 boxes from midway. Theyre cheap and work well. I dont like plastic ones cuz they take up so much more space.
 
#31 ·
Note that your 35 grain load of 3031 is the MAX load for your data and exceeds the Hornady MAX load.
Not a good place to start. Patrick gets mil spec velocity on a 140 gr bullet with considerably less 3031 in this thread ..I shoot with him and he is a very experienced reloader.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Yea thats y im kinda not sure. Most ppl are shooting 140 grain bullets. But u should need more powder for a slighlty lighter bullet. If the one with 33 grains is close enough to the velocity im looking for ill take the others apart. Its a16% lighter bullet so i was thinking 10% more powder but again im not sure
 
#33 ·
So if 31.5 grains is a good power for 140 grain bullets. A lil bit more powder should be good for a 120 bullet not sure exactly how much more tho. That data i posted i forgot where i got that but it says 31-35. I could just shoot some of em but i dont have much ammo and i just shot it a bunch. I also have a ton of cast bullets and stuff i need to try. Kinda running low on funds cleaning supplys reloading comps
 
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