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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Reposted from the old Boards:

houstonfrank
Thankyou, Lee Speed. Netsew, I see by your profile that your are a resident of Wis. May I presume that you want to use your 9.3x57 on those big fine deer that live back there? If so, you might consider contacting Hawk bullets (www.hawkbullets.com) to see if you can get them to rush you some of their excellent 200 grain softpoints in 9.3 caliber. These have a thin (0.030) copper jacket and would perform exceedingly well...a stunning load, in fact...on whitetails at 2500 fps plus, which you should easily be able to acheive with your 9.3, along with a judicious load of IMR 4064. I cannot give you more precise information because, as Lee Speed has said, this reloading business is often an experiment of one, as you may already know. Data may exist for a round but every rifle and chamber is different. My advice would be to learn to measure your case expansion, if you do not already know how. For example, if you shoot a factory round in your 9.3, you can measure the case's expansion and then if you use the same cases for reloading, you can look for similar behaviour of the brass when using, for example, a 200-grain bullet and IMR 4064. As for case length, it is generally considered a bad idea to use cases that are too long, as pressures can grow too high too fast. Vihtavuori says keep your 9.3x57 case under 2.236 inches, and if your case is too long (and it is), trim it back to 2.228 inches. As for overall cartridge length, Vihtavuori (once again) says 3.189 inches is appropriate for the 9.3x57. But cartridge length is less critical if your rifle has a long leade, as Lee Speed pointed out. You can seat those bullets wherever you want, but pressures do change with the seating depth and distance from the rifling. It's always safe to stick with the rules and make your case and cartridge lengths match standards. In reloading for my 9.3, I used .358 Winchester maximum loads for my starting loads, and this has worked very well and safely (it took me many hours of calculation and experimentation to arrive at that conclusion) EXCEPT for the Hawk 200 grain bullet! My load of IMR 4064 is actually LESS than the max .358 load for this bullet and powder, even though my case (and yours)holds 4-5 more grains of powder. The .358 starting load was not too high in terms of pressure, but the behaviour of the bullet was erratic. It took me a couple weeks to figure out that if I dropped back to sub-max .358 levels, I could get similar velocities and excellent accuracy. I believe you will be absolutely safe in dropping back 5% from all listed max .358 loads in all reputable reloading manuals (watch out for the hot rods on the 'net), and then CAREFULLY working up. Outside of owning a piezo-electric device, there are no better tools with which to check your progress than a good micrometer and a chronograph. What do you say, Lee Speed? Good luck, netsew, and please keep us posted on your progress. Kwahe



LeeSpeed
Location: USA
Lots of interesting stuff here, Kwahe. I do not have any experience using .358 Win loads for a starting point for the ".36 Swede" {9.3x57}. But your recommendation as to increasing slowly and watching for pressure signs is good advice. Netsew: Fill us in with your results as in powder and bullet selection. The Hawks Kwahe refers to have an excellent reputation and just might be the best choise for this medium velocity cartridge due to their jacket/core construction. Their selection is quite varied and large also, though I have only seen their bullets in factory listing and have no actual experience with them. They do look intriguing though.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.




sbhva
Moderator Group
Mark, I am South of you in the far Southeastern corner of New Berlin (think Hales Corners). I have been to Daniel Boone a couple of times for deer rifle sight-in. It looks like a very nice club. They even have a Swedish running Moose (Elg) target!
Steve





Kwahe
Dear AP: I'm a sideliner on this website myself for the most part, but sometimes I simply can't contain myself. And on the subject of the 9.3x57, there is too much unknown about its possibilities to not want to join in! Your comments are well taken. Just as a quick check on the advisibility of using your proposed method for getting at loads for the x57, we would end up with, according to the very same Waters, 51.5 grains of IMR 4064 for the 286 grain Norma roundnose (he max loaded 57 grains as he describes in Pet Loads) in that poor little x57 case. This 51.5 is WAAAAYYYY over what would be considered safe in the x57 case. To illustrate, and as you may have gathered from my previous posts, my twin sister cartridge case holds exactly the same amount of powder as the 9.3x57. I loaded 50 grains of IMR 4064 behind the 200-grain Hawk (worked up to very slowly and carefully) and got frightening case expansion. I can't even imagine what would happen if loaded behind a big slug like the 286. I load 45 grains of the same powder behind the Nosler 286, and get close to maximum case expansion. This is a solid 12 grains less than that for the 9.3x62. So I don't think you should plug your idea in and work it. I have been down the road you are moving...the road of calculating loads based on generalities about the cases of rounds in which we are interested. There's lots of 'em. Here is another kinda rule: the case capacity of the 9.3x57 is about 82% of the 9.3x74 (and 88% of the x62, etc). Can't we just multiply powder amounts listed for these rounds in all the reloading manuals by the appropriate percentage, and use that in the x57? Even this actually gets us no closer to reasonable loads. For example, you can put 61 grains of H335 into the 9.3x74 case behind the 270-grain Speer (2328 fps, according to the Speer Reloading Manual #13). Taking 82% of 61 we once again get to 50 grains. I actually started at 10% less in working up that load. I got to 44 grains and witnessed absolute max case expansion, with a velocity of 2246 fps. Good enough. So again, even that sensible sounding rule was way off. The problem continues to be one of estimating pressure, and without a piezo-electric device or a copper crusher system, we will get no good information using a short-cut. Yes, you could load up according to these rules (minus another 10%) and PROBABLY be safe doing it, but I'm afraid there is no easy safe way. And even the harder safe way is...well, time-consuming and can get a bit pricey. Dieter Sturm (Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges) stated that Norma loaded their 9.3x57 factory stuff to 36,000 CUP. That's around 42-44,000 psi. I have a query into Norma as we speak to check to see if it still holds. The velocities are still the same, so I'm guessing the pressures will be the same, too. We'll see. These are the pressures I am guessing Lee Speed and others are loading to right now, and wisely so. I am in the process of describing the "long dreary road" I took to get at reasonable loads for cases that hold 54 grains of water. That's both the 9.3x57 and the 9.3x53R. I will bore you with it soon enough. By the by, Lee Speed, thank you for your interest in my rifle. I would be happy to mail you a pic, but I see little use and a lot of trouble in using this Swede sporter site to discuss the---horrible!gasp!egad!---mo-di-fi-ca-tion of a military rifle, even tastefully done by reputable gunsmiths. My aim is to contribute to your effort to load for this fine Husky 9.3 Svenska. I may not be able to resist getting one much longer myself... Kwahe




LeeSpeed
Location: USA
I agree that the interpolation from other rounds is a risky business. Shape/length of cartridge case has been said to have a effect on pressures as does the obvious powder/primer/bullets. Trouble is a guy needs somewhere to start. If you use Accurate Arms powders, a quick call to Johan Loubser should get you started. I don't know what their formula is but as far as velocity goes it has worked for me. Then after getting a good start load it is a matter of increasing slowly and looking for pressure signs.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.




Kwahe
Location: USA
Nice work, Mark! We'd all love to see those chrono numbers, I'm sure. I just checked a couple of fired x57 cases. The area of interest was exactly 3/8 inches from the rim end. If you have a pic of a case cross-section...or you section a case yourself, it'll be where the case thins out from the rim and groove area. Measure (to the nearest 0.0001...estimate if ya hafta). You're looking for the greatest diameter, so keep sliding and rotating until you find it. You won't have to slide up and down after you locate the area of greatest expansion...put the center of the caliper ram right on 3/8 inch...but always rotate the cases to see what the largest measurement is on each case...it always changes as you rotate. It is unlikely you will get the same number if you measure in the "bulge," just a teeny bulge. If the cases really do measure exactly the same (to the nearest ten-thousandth) then either you haven't found the bulge OR the loads simply didn't differentiate themselves vis avis your cases OR you're measuring thousandths instead of ten-thousandths. According to my calculations, if you planted 45 grains of one of the 4895s in your loads, then it'll make the case expand beyond the smallest load plenty...over 0.0010 I'm guessing, and probably higher. That's considered a bunch in the case measurement world. Then as long as you are interested in measuring cases, you'll have to either use new cases or full-length resized fired cases as per Lee's instructions. Once you have your loads, you'll only need to neck size. Please divulge those numbers! We'd be interested in case make, primer type, powder, load, velocity, and greatest case expansion. 1) I concur with Lee when he says the most common reason for primers backing out is loading too low. But if you got up to 45 grains, this is hardly too low, especially with the 286s. I have heard that headspace in these rifles is generous. If that's true, Lee, shouldn't we be making sure we don't set shoulders back when resizing? Even if we are careful not to do that, cases may still resize, although minimally. I don't have this problem with my rimmed cases for the x53R. 2) Look on www.grafs.com and huntingtons.com and google "hawk bullets" and get on their site. Bullets aplenty and in the size yer looking fer. 3) I'm glad you didn't put 48 grains of 4895 in your 270 and 287 loads! According to my admittedly tentative calculations, 49 grains maxes with 200 gr bullets, 47.5 maxes with 250s, and 45 maxes with 286s. Now I have not substantiated this yet as my Husky is still in the process of getting here. But this should hold true for cases that hold 54 grains of water...both the 9.3x57 and the 9.3x53R. The pressures...calculated, mind you, not measured...would be in the vicinity of 50,000 CUP or 56,000-58,000 psi. I'd be a little shy about moving beyond there. As I said, if the cases expand 0.0015 inches (at those max levels) beyond the "fire-forming" load (probably 40 grains or so of 4895 with a 286), then pressures are indeed that high, and maximum, absolutely. Hope you can find the expansion ring...and give us the goodies! Nice job!!!!!
Kwahe




sbhva
Moderator Group
Location: USA
Nosler has a 250 gr. ballistic tip bullet in 9.3, but I have heard that it has been discontinued. I just bought the last 3 boxes at my local Sportsman's Warehouse. I believe the 232 gr. bullet is a Norma.
Steve






DL Beck
Has anyone used H414 with the 9.3X57? I've seen a write up on the net using it in a 9.3X62 with 300 grain bullets, 61.3gr H414 = 2300 FPS @ 44,864 psi. Pressures would even lower with 286 gr bullets. H414 would possibly be a powder worth looking at for the 9.3X57 for good performance and lower pressures. I bought a can but have not used it yet. DLB
"40 knots, no smoke"



netsew
Location: USA
Kwahe, Where do you measure for case expansion? I went to the range today with 6 differant loads of IMR 4895 (three for each bullet weight), two bullet weights (286 and 270gr)and my chrono. I also took my calipers with me. I measured right at the bottom of the case by the extraction groove so I could repeat the measurment. I got the same reading for all six loads. Do you measure somewhat higher on the case, and if you do how do repeat measuring at the same spot on each case? Some other question and concerns. 1. On every one of my fired cases the primer has backed out a little, enough to be visible with the naked eye. What is that telling me if anything? None of these loads were "hot" as far as I could tell. 2. Where can you get 232 and 250gr bullets .366 bullets? 3. It looks to me that with IMR 4895 at least you will start compressing the powder at 47 or 48 grains if you seat the bullet one caliber deep and use resized 8mm Mauser brass (which are sort of short to start with). I didn't use 47 or 48 grains of IMR 4895 to reload but it sure looks like as a practical matter thats about all your going to get in the case without compressing the powder. 4.LeeSpeed, How do you set up you die so only the case mouth gets resized? Since I have now fireformed some cases I would like to resize the case mouth only. Thanks Mark



LeeSpeed
Location: USA
Interesting stuff, all! As far as neck sizing with the Hornady die is concerned, it is easy. Simply lube a new 8mm Mauser case. I use Hornady spray lube. Quick and I can get some inside the case mouth while lubing the outside. Very fast. I have never had any trouble with the lube effecting primers or powder either. Anyway, simply slide a lubed case into the shell holder and raise the ram into the partially screwed in sizing die. This expands the case mouth to 9.3. Back the die almost out of the press and raise the ram all the way. Then, commence screwing the sizing die into the press {I use a RCBS Rock Chucker} until you feel it start to size the case mouth. By lowering the case and looking at the case mouth you will be able to see a step in the case mouth where the sizing stops. Screw the die in and size little by little till the step ends at the shoulder. I actually quit so the step is just noticeable. This indicates that the die is NOT setting the shoulder back or even sizing the shoulder at all. At this point set and lock your locking ring. Die is set. For the rest of your lubed cases, you just run them into the die one pass. They are neck sized. Loaded rounds may chamber tightly. I separate cases for each rifle. I guess it is possible that cases so sized on the first sizing wouldn't chamber at all but I have never had this occur. A dummy round could be made up to test the process in your rifle. I never full-length resize my 9.3x57 cases and have had no problems in the field or at my range. Rarely do I get backed out primers now. Usually only in extreme cold, so I am thinking that they are indications of low pressures, though I am not certain. On both of my rifles a freshly necksized new Remington 8mm Mauser case is a snug fit in the chamber first loading. This is a rough guide as to good headspace. I believe a 8x57 headspace gauege can be used for the 9.3x57.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.



AseVeli

Admin Group
Ok....I'll seee about getting myself one of these rifles too, sounds like a hell of a lot of fun for the winter. I'll start developing loads with Varget and Reloder 15. Time to talk to Allan.....
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

- George Orwell




A.P.Ball
Location: USA
Hello again--Thanks for your post, Kwahe. I was beginning to think I had lost the rest of my marbles. I have some miscellaneous stuff to share. First, LeeSpeed. Influenced by your success swaging down .375 Hornadys, I sent some .375 Speer 235 grain bullets to Lee. After a lot of back and forthing, they tried to use two dies, the first .375 to .370, the second .370 to .366. It was no go. Maybe the bearing surface was different, or maybe the bullet itself was stouter, but nothing worked. That was in 2005, so maybe they have found a solution by now. As to .366 bullets. The local Sportsmans Warehouse has the 270 Speer and the 250 Nosler and Barnes TSX. Grafs has the Norma 232 grain bullets in the Oryx and the Vulkan. I have loaded both of these using Sturm's load of 54 grains of 748 (carefully worked up, of course). I didn't chronograph these from the 21" barrel. but at 50 yards, the 5 shot Oryx group was un one half inch, and the five shot Vulkan group was slightly over one half inch. They aren't cheap, but they shoot. The powder charge fills the case half way up the neck. I loaded the 235 grain Hawk bullet over the Sturm load in a chronographed string comparing the other loads from a Husqvarna 146, and the Hawk gained about 100fps over the Norma bullets. Maybe the pure copper jacket gave more resistance, but surely the pressure was a good bit higher. The Vulkan load goes deer hunting in a month or so, but the one I'm really looking forward to working with is the BarnesTSX and Varget or 380. Isn't this fun! APB




sbhva
Moderator Group
Location: USA
Good idea Mark, this thread is now stuck.
Steve






SteveR_1
Here is a link I found to LoadData, it is a pay type site, but it has some value as to type of powder and bullet types, as well as cartridge dimensions. http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1018 Steve





SteveR_1
Kwahe, Sorry about the heart stopping, I agree that why waste the time going with the bigger case, why the 9.3x62? I guess if I ever wanted that little bit more I know I can get it. But with your actual data I see how the 9.3x57 is a very sweet round. Thanks, Steve





LeeSpeed
Location: USA
Kwahe: I've been comparing some of the loads you list versus the loads I listed. You have no doubt noticed, but I find it curious that your results with the 285 grain bullet and 4895. You show max case expansion with 45 grains and a velocity of 2110-2174. I show 46.5 grains producing 2037. My COL is 3.118". This goes to show the variations that can occur with a similar powder. I say similar because mine is surplus IMR 4895. Nevertheless, primers showed no excessive flattening, bolt opened with a pinky and the case neck showed a bit of smoke. AND my velocity is much slower. Did different cases, powder lots, primers or COL cause a difference? Who knows, but it just goes to show that merely picking a load from a book can be a dangerous practice.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.





poppa smurff

Location: USA
Please don't use these loads, they could be hazardous to your health! Gentlemen today I played with fire...well maybe not. Rifle: 9.3 x 57 M146 Husky I decided to load the speer 270/9.3 on top of H414, R-P brass,CCI200 primers. Loads were increased .5 gr at a time until I stopped. My starting load: 45gr pussycat .410 like recoil 50gr recoil stiffer, but comfortable 62gr recoil becoming more noticible...not your daddy's 9.3 I quit here. Still no external visible signs of pressure. The primers were still tight, no gas blowback. I used the same 10 cases each time, so they have gone through 3 reloads fom mild to wild. I realize yall may question my sanity, you wouldn't be the first, but other than the stiff recoil I didn't have a problem. The downside, no chrono so I don't know if I have decent velocity or just more recoil. Good luck...USE CAUTION!!!





Kwahe
Location: USA
Dear Poppa...Brave work, my friend! I'm sure that "62 grain" load you mention up above is 52...right? That H414 sounds like good stuff. Did it burn clean? Any unburned granules after firing? Your experiment in bravery allows me to illustrate two points: 1) It is a SIMPLE matter to drop down to Home Depot or your local hardware store and buy a 0.001" micrometer for less than $30. Even though the lines and numbers only give you 0.001" precision, you can estimate to the 0.0001" very easily. I will soon illustrate how easy this is in a separate post. This is a cheap way to stay out of trouble. Even if you have no chronograph...and I wouldn't have one either if my neighbor hadn't given me one before moving out of the country...you can measure cases and be safe. Also, as I have found, those Huskies, at least the M146, handle ruptured cases like no tomorrow. Fortunately, cuz otherwise there'd be no tomorrow for me. 2) Those Speer 270 grain Hot Cors have given me plenty trouble in my 9.3s, both the x57 and the x53R. Today I finally figured out why. Using said micrometer, I found that the Speer measures 0.3665 inches in diameter, where as the Prvi measures 0.3655, as do all my Woodleighs. That's a big solid 0.001 inch difference in diameter! I've shot up all my Hawks, so I can't give you that info. Anyway, what this means is that before you can get the Speer going fast enough to do good on game (the Speer engineers tell me it has to be somewhat faster than the 2250 fps I get with the x53R), pressure signs begin to show up on the case. Case in point (npi): Today I shot the Speer from my x57 with 37.5 grains of Re 7, a reasonable load. I have had a fascination with Re 7 since discovering how well it performs in straight-cased and near-straight cased rounds (.405 Winchester, .416 Express (.350 Rem Mag cases), 45-70, even .33 Winchester). Since the 9.3x57 has only a 0.04" shoulder, it fits that category well. Anyway, today the V was 2057 and the burly Federal cases expanded absolutely maximum. So now I know about this bullet. Two bits says the heavier Prvi with the same amount of powder will work better...that is, faster with less expansion. I'll be careful. It is a very simple matter to measure cases... Kwahe



poppa smurff
Location: USA
Dear Kwahe, .62......unless my powder scale is 10 grains off. H414 @ this weight fills the case to the middle of the neck. Covering the opening and gently tapping the side with a screwdriver settles the powder to about the bottom of the neck. This is about the depth of the seated 270gr Speer. Shoots minute of electric fan motor with a wobbly rest against the tree, at about 75 yards. The cases have now held up to 4 reloads, the necks were sized about 3/4 of the way down. Yes I know, go ahead and shake your head. I found a site today that lists 60 gr of H414 as a max load.......for 9.3x62! All I can say is that H414 must be very forgiving. The thing I have noticed in the reloading data for various calibers is that H414 has lower pressure at a comparable or increased velocity when compared to other powders and loads listed. Maybe this is why I still have a complete Husky, and all of my appendages are still attached.
Johnny Murff



netsew Location: USA
I got to the range today and was able to chrono the Reloader 15 loads I had made for my 9.3 X 57. I am going to post them in the Sticky above that I hope will serve as a data base for reloading the 9.3 X 57 since there is not a lot of published information. It seems that I am always 100 to 300 FPS slower than Lee Speed and Kwahe but this is what my chrono is telling me. As always the loads were safe in my rifle they might not be in yours. Start low and work your way up. Some info: Rifle: small ring Husqvarna made in 1941 Temp: 49F Chrono: PACT Powder: Reloader 15 (RL15) Brass: reformed RP 8mm Mauser Bullets: 286gr Privi Partizan (PP) and 270gr Sierra Averages: are per 5 rounds through the chrono PP 286gr RL15 43gr AVG: 1779FPS PP 286gr RL15 44gr AVG: 1812FPS PP 286gr RL15 45gr AVG: 1874FPS Sierra 270gr RL15 44gr AVG: 1831FPS Sierra 270gr RL15 45gr AVG: 1869FPS Sierra 270gr RL15 46gr AVG: 1931FPS All 30 rounds went onto a 2 X 3 inch group at 50 meters (54 yards) which I thought was good since there were 6 different loads used. I kept firing at the same spot since I was interested in chrono results not group size. Each grain of powder seemed to add about 60FPS and there was room for more powder without compressing the load. I hope this information will be useful. Thanks Mark



LeeSpeed
Location: USA
I never use mag primers in the 9.3x57. I can see no reason for this practice with this particular cartridge. I have never read of a single recommendation for mag primers with medium burn rate powders as used commonly in the 9.3x57. The expansion ratio of the 9.3x57 indicates powders in the medium burn rate range and magnum primers are not typically recommended, even in cold conditions.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.



LeeSpeed

Location: USA
Kwahe and Poppa: Interesting posts. Kwahe: Re: 270 Speer. Did you call Speer regarding terminal effect of the 270/.366? For some years my shooting has been with varied with assorted rifles and calibers and it has left me with a habit of finding a single load in a caliber and rifle and using that gun for a specific purpose. This is why my load work with the 9.3x57 was for the purpose of finding one good hunting load, and why I basically quit when I found it. I bought 100 Speer 270's in my early days of loading for the x57 and then found the PP bullets and most of my work has been with the latter. Now that I have some idea what to expect with the Prvi Partizan bullets on game {deer, elk and small bear} and in conjunction with your statement above, I am curious to make up a test and compare the terminal performance of the 270 Speer with the 285 grain Prvi. Personally, I don't really want a bullet much more stoutly constructed than the PP bullet for use at x57 velocities. Some may disagree, and certainly it seems the trend these days is to gravitate to "hard" bullets of "Premium" make and construction for all hunting, at least this is the seeming direction of the gun writers and gun rag recommendations. As for poor old me, I find traditional construction just fine for killing deer and elk and black bear, and the Prvi Partizan a dandy bullet for use in the x57 for these critters. As for the pressure issues you had with the Speer bullet I am still scratching my head. I have shot other calibers with similar discrepancies in bullet diameters with no seeming, at least obvious affect on pressures and the Speer has shown itself to be very "normal" in my rifles with the little work I've done with it. Certainly it makes sense that there might be a problem with a rifle that already has minimal case neck clearance, but if there is adequate freedom for the case to release the bullet and any freebore at all {i.e., bullet is NOT jammed up against sharp rifling} I'm struggling to see how the case sep/pressure problems could be a direct result of .001" difference in bullet diameter unless it is just one of several other factors. I could be totally wrong. I hope I don't start a war here on this great forum by saying so, but I have an added sense of caution with any of these Husky's that are coming in to the USA right now. Essentially, they are ALL "rejects" of a sort, meaning that somebody got rid of them for some reason. They are not weapons collected at random in war, or sold off from an estate {tho that may be one reason for their disposition} but rather, they are, I believe, mostly sold in order to make room for something else. Meaning, something was KEPT in order that these might GO. The classic "used gun" that may provide perfect or dubious performance. I don't want to overstate the possible problems, or to condemn the lot of them at all. My other posts prove otherwise {I like these guns!}, but I have always treated used guns sold for an unknown reason very carefully, as the reason may be that they pop caps and blow cases! All that to say this: I wonder if your rifle already has minimal tolerance in the chamber and thus it is exhibiting pressure signs with loads that might not have shown signs in other rifles. I might be all wet here and totally wrong, but I am curious. I wonder what a really good chamber casting might reveal? This stuff never ceases to fascinate... Finally, I have no experience with H414 and have no idea what constitutes a safe load.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.



poppa smurff
Location: USA
I agree with the chamber issue....seems to be long and the diameter of the neck generous. The primer always backs out just a hair, bullet seated out or in.
Johnny Murff

poppa smurff
Location: USA
Kwahe, for a good chamber cast use CEROSAFE available from BROWNELL'S, a gunsmith supply company, just follow the directions. After loading 62 grains of H414 in a 9.3x57 I'm in a bit of a quandry as to what the velocity might be....guess I need to buy a chronograph. But the x62 is maxxed at 60 grains, what the heck? Floppy Chamber Syndrome? In theory that load should have been grossley overloaded. In practice it had a good thump! As a friend of mine used to say about about his stout handloads,"It had a healthy crack"! Fellows I'm not trying to lead you down a path of destruction, this is just my experience. About the only thing that kept me from putting another grain in that case was I ran out of space.
Johnny Murff



Kwahe
Location: USA
YES. Yes, I mistakenly full-resized the cases, and yes, the chamber and cases were completely dry, as always. Since then, I cranked the sizing die about 3/4 turn back and that seems to have stopped both primer backout and case seps...so far. Makes me wanna try 4064 again with the PPs just to see if those case seps were a fluke. That powder is just so excellent in the x53R with 286s. Johnny, I tried stuffing H380...the next faster powder going up from H414 in the Hodgdon line...and I could only get 49-50 grains in, and that's with a bit of tap tap tapping. One thing I found with slower powders...and this may shed some light on H414...in the x53R is that you can stuff all you want in there, whether H380 or H4831 or IMR 4350, and you never get pressure signs. You only get diminishing return in terms of velocity. Sometimes the velocity actually goes down! But the cases expand the same. I stuffed 52 grains of H380...right up to the brim...tap tap tap and compresssssss...into the x53R case behind the 285 PP and still only got 2167 fps with moderate to near max case expansion. It amazes me that 62 grains of anything fit in the x57 case! This H414 is dense stuff, no? I looked up some data on my x53R and found even there that I can plant more powder behind a Woodleigh 286 than I can behind a Speer 270 before the cases expand too much for my tastes. It is possible that we are still working on the soft side of 45,000psi, and therefore I haven't allowed my cases to expand far enough to thoroughly test them, but I doubt it. In any case, I'm not wandering away from the inimical Waters method, which I will soon review for interested readers... Kwahe



poppa smurff

Location: USA
Man, the pains we take to keep these old birds alive....ain't it fun! Ok, until proven otherwise I'm going to assume my scale is 10 grains off. H414 may well be dense stuff but I haven't compared it to other spherical powders in the Hodgedon line, so as far as filling the case w/ comparable volume/weight I just haven't done this yet...maybe this weekend. Now according to my interpolation I should be getting about 2800-2900fps, but what I need is a good varmint round so I figger' with the 200 grain Hawk I should get around 34-3500fps. [8] We have just been failing to realize the 9.3s real potential. Wow what a revalation![:p] Now this part isn't malarky, check out NOSLER'S web site for new products....yall gonna' like it![:D]
Johnny Murff



AWeston
Location: Canada
Hello guys, I'm new to this board, but have been messing about with old rifles for quite a few years. One tool that has proven very useful to establish safe starting loads is the QuickLoad software sold by NECO down in Texas. It covers the 9.3X57 as well as some of the stranger birds, and will also allow you to "build" cases based on ones already listed. For top end loads, I own a strain gage outfir, but usually am not at all interested in going stratospheric. Consistency puts the meat in the freezer, if I want more horsepower, I go to something designed to kick big, like the .358 Norma or .375 H&H!



Smokepole50

Location: USA
At the request of a board member, here is my post from a thread below...... Well I loaded up 30 rounds and took my new toy to the home range yesterday. To put it mildly, conditions sucked but I was gonna go if it was snowing. The temperature was about 35-38 degrees and the wind was gusting 15-20mph. I know, this is a good day for some of you but not a good day in Virginia for target pratice. All loadings were with NEW Norma brass, IMR4895 and Rem. 9 1/2 LR primers. I loaded up 20 rounds with the 285gr PP and 10 rounds with the 250gr Nosler Accubond. My only regret is that I did not have a chronograph but I am ordering one next week. See what you people have done to me.[:D] The bullet seating depth on the Prvi Partizan 285 gr bullets was to the bottom lip of the first crimp band. This would be the closest groove to the bottom. On the 250 Nosler Accubond bullets. I seated them one bullet thickness which is about the length of the case neck. I did not take into account the boat tail design when figuring case support of the bullet so that put the BT of the 250 Nosler just at or slightly below the sholder of the case. The NEW Norma brass measured 2.218 to 2.220" in case length before loading. At what I believe to be the correct place to measure for case expansion, just above the case head base/web, the cases measured .460 before firing. My measurements are done with a dial indicating caliper so I am guessing on the .0005 increments. The load increments went as follows.... 286 PP Bullet 43.0 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .463.0 44.0 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .463.5 44.5 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .463.5 45.0 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 45.3 gr...5 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 45.6 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 Nosler 250 gr Accubond45.0 gr...2 rds case hd after firing = .463.0 46.0 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 46.5 gr...3 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 47.0 gr...2 rds case hd after firing = .464.0 ****The primers on all the loadings did not indicate any significant pressure signs as in no cratering or reflow of primer metal. The edged of the primers kept there normal round profile as they approach the primer cup edge in the case. One thing I did notice was that the cases on average shortened about .005 after firing. Maybe this is normal with new brass as I have never done this sort of measuring on new once fired brass. Conclusions...........I REALLY like my new toy! Recoil was there but after 30 rounds I noticed no tenderness in my shoulder. This is one sweet cartridge/rifle combination. My rifle likes.....45.3 gr of IMR 4895 and 285gr PP bullets I need a taller front sight. I still need to fire more of the 250ge Nosler Accubond's to determine the best loading but it looks like 47.0 gr of IMR4895 will be a good place to contine testing. I can't wait to get a scope on this rifle as it appears to be a accurate example. My next rifle purchase will be a 96 action 9.3x57, can anyone say M46 [:D] Here are a few of my targets from yesterday..... Download Attachment: scan0001.jpg
275.02 KB Smokepole50



Smokepole50
Location: USA
Well I finally bought a Chronograph and tested her out the other day with my 9.3x57. I set the Chrony brand unit up approx 20 feet from the muzzle and low and behold I did NOT shoot the thing. Here is the load data and velocity I saw from these loads......... One interesting note and question I have is how many lands does your 9.3 Husky have? My rifle is a 1937 FN 98 action and the barrel has 6 grooves and lands. I just finished glass bedding the rifle last week so I was chomping at the bit to get her out to the range. I thought that Chrony would never arrive form Midway... My brass was all Norma once fired and neck sized. Rem 9 1/2 LR primers Temp was 45 degrees. Chrony set 20 feet from muzzle. First load was.... Prvi Partizan 285gr Bullet 45.3 gr IMR4895 Shot 1....1981 fps Shot 2....2026 fps Shot 3....1980 fps Shot 4....1994 fps Shot 5....1980 fps Shot 6....1977 fps Shot 7....2035 fps -(my rifle seems to really like this load but the velocity varried a good bit so I don't know how it will group at distances further then 50 yards) Here is the target. Five shots were fired in a string and then I fired two more awhile later. One of the holes in the center of the group are two bullets. I think the fliers are either my poor 46 yr old eyes or some other pressure variable indicated by the velocity numbers. I am sure a scope would produce better groups. Download Attachment: scan0005.jpg
185.11 KB Second loading 250 gr Nosler Accubond Bullet 47.0 grains IMR4895 Shot 1....2169 fps Shot 2....2110 fps Shot 3....2134 fps Shot 4....2142 fps Shot 5....2148 fps Third loading 250 gr Nosler Accubond Bullet 47.5 gr IMR4895 This is probably getting very close to a MAX load with this bullet and powder combination as the primers are begining to flatten a little more but the accuracy got better. I think I will stop at this point..... Shot 1....2171 fps Shot 2....2143 fps Shot 3....2156 fps Shot 4....2167 fps Shot 5....2165 fps Here is the target from the 47.5 grain load. This should be a good loading for long shots. I'm looking forward to getting a scope on this rifle. Download Attachment: scan0003.jpg
264.79 KB Forth Loading.... 232gr Norma Oryx Bullet 48.0 gr IMR4895 Shot 1....2120 fps Shot 2....2208 fps Shot 3....2238 fps Fifth Loading.... 232 gr Norma Oryx Bullet 48.3gr IMR4895 Shot 1....2145 fps Shot 2....2188 fps.....New brass case on this one Shot 3....2148 fps Conclusions about the 232 Norma bullets.....I believe I should have been able to get highier velocities from these bullets then I saw with IMR4895. My next attempt will be to work up a load with IMR3031 or possibly RL15. I'll post this now and add some target pictures in a few minutes... Smokepole50



Kwahe
Location: USA
Dear 9.3 friends....... A very nice job done with recent reports of loads in this round. I have read of the rim expansion method as an indirect way of determining pressure in the case. Many point to its utility. I would only add that the range of variability of measurements is much smaller with the rim method as opposed to the case measures. It would seem that any measure that allows for the greatest variation in measurements from low to high pressures would be most useful. This was pointed out by Pettson and others in other posts. But let me also say that I applaud all measuring of cases. Aside from measuring cases, I use another method of determining pressure limits, a method that uses only velocity. One need only a chrono. Simply, this is a graph of charge vs velocity. The data almost always generate an "S" curve, as you can easily see by an eposition of Bolivar's post of 3/25. I don't have the computer savvy to reproduce the curve for you here (of course you can easily graph it yourselves) but I can tell you the data fit a perfect "S" curve, with an upward inflection of the "S" at 47.5 grains of IMR 4895 and the 270-grain Speer, and a flattening of the upward inflection at 49 grains. This says that once 49 grains has been reached, more powder gives less velocity per unit powder. The gurus of reloading state that the pressures at this flattening point rise dramatically with increasing amounts of powder, despite the fall in velocity gained as more powder is added. Therefore, I would agree with Bolivar that something less than 50 grains is safest in this load, and that the limit is probably between 48.5 and 49 grains. In another example, Airdale's data generate only a "J" curve where no flattening of the curve is yet reached (same bullet with H4895). His max load is 47.5 grains. In the absence of any other sign of increasing pressure in his loads, I would cautiously guess that safe reloading could move a bit higher.........but only until the flattening of the velocity curve is reached (thus turning a "J" curve into an "S" curve), or other signs of increased pressure arise. Often, Waters would stop his loads at this flattening-of-the-curve point despite the lack of case expansion that might otherwise stop him. It could be wise for us to follow his excellent example. The curves are good ones and accurate provided one fire enough shots at each load. Waters always did 5 shots. Someday, I'll go to the trouble to learn how to put pics on these posts like you other experts........ Kwahe




Bolivar
Location: Canada
Kwale I had not thought to graph the results. Good idea. I have done it and it is shown below. What I have found perplexing though is that during Test 2, velocities were noticebly lower at 49 and 49.5 Gn. As such, Test to does not match the curve of Test 1. Download Attachment: 93x57 IMR4895 270Speer Charge v velocity.JPG
183.83 KBe Regardless, it does not seem prudent to increase the charge beyond 50 Gns and perhaps 49-49.5 should be where I leave off. I was going to test some more loads at 50 Gns, but with shorter OAL. I wanted to see if I got noticable increases in velocity and accuracy. However, your analysis has given me pause to think that 50 Gn at an OAL of 3.15 is perhaps a little closer to the ragged edge than I first thought. I think I'll just load up some rounds, zero the scope and just have some fun shootin' [:D] Bolivar




A.P.Ball
Location: USA
It has been my experience that in the 9.3x57 case, 748 is slower than 4895, behaving almost as if it were in the same general category as 4320. In the latest Hornady manual, their burning rate chart puts 748 and 4320 side by side. Using reformed Remington brass and WLR primers, 54 grains of 748 (Sturm's load) produce 2375fps from a 21" barrel with both Oryx and Vulkan bullets. Overall length was 2.95". There were no pressure signs. Accuracy was very impressive. apb




Smokepole50
Location: USA
Well I finally bought a Chronograph and tested her out the other day with my 9.3x57. I set the Chrony brand unit up approx 20 feet from the muzzle and low and behold I did NOT shoot the thing. Here is the load data and velocity I saw from these loads......... One interesting note and question I have is how many lands does your 9.3 Husky have? My rifle is a 1937 FN 98 action and the barrel has 6 grooves and lands. I just finished glass bedding the rifle last week so I was chomping at the bit to get her out to the range. I thought that Chrony would never arrive form Midway... My brass was all Norma once fired and neck sized. Rem 9 1/2 LR primers Temp was 45 degrees. Chrony set 20 feet from muzzle. First load was.... Prvi Partizan 285gr Bullet 45.3 gr IMR4895 Shot 1....1981 fps Shot 2....2026 fps Shot 3....1980 fps Shot 4....1994 fps Shot 5....1980 fps Shot 6....1977 fps Shot 7....2035 fps -(my rifle seems to really like this load but the velocity varried a good bit so I don't know how it will group at distances further then 50 yards) Here is the target. Five shots were fired in a string and then I fired two more awhile later. One of the holes in the center of the group are two bullets. I think the fliers are either my poor 46 yr old eyes or some other pressure variable indicated by the velocity numbers. I am sure a scope would produce better groups. Download Attachment: scan0005.jpg
185.11 KB Second loading 250 gr Nosler Accubond Bullet 47.0 grains IMR4895 Shot 1....2169 fps Shot 2....2110 fps Shot 3....2134 fps Shot 4....2142 fps Shot 5....2148 fps Third loading 250 gr Nosler Accubond Bullet 47.5 gr IMR4895 This is probably getting very close to a MAX load with this bullet and powder combination as the primers are begining to flatten a little more but the accuracy got better. I think I will stop at this point..... Shot 1....2171 fps Shot 2....2143 fps Shot 3....2156 fps Shot 4....2167 fps Shot 5....2165 fps Here is the target from the 47.5 grain load. This should be a good loading for long shots. I'm looking forward to getting a scope on this rifle. Download Attachment: scan0003.jpg
264.79 KB Forth Loading.... 232gr Norma Oryx Bullet 48.0 gr IMR4895 Shot 1....2120 fps Shot 2....2208 fps Shot 3....2238 fps Fifth Loading.... 232 gr Norma Oryx Bullet 48.3gr IMR4895 Shot 1....2145 fps Shot 2....2188 fps.....New brass case on this one Shot 3....2148 fps Conclusions about the 232 Norma bullets.....I believe I should have been able to get highier velocities from these bullets then I saw with IMR4895. My next attempt will be to work up a load with IMR3031 or possibly RL15. I'll post this now and add some target pictures in a few minutes... Smokepole50




LeeSpeed
Location: USA
Bolivar: Interesting findings. I have never used the case head measurement system for a whole host of reasons, some of which you identify. Any method that helps determine pressures is certainly worth pursuing, but my experiences measuring case head expansion has demonstrated erratic results and I prefer to use other measurements. Some guys swear by the CHM system and others swear at it, with some seemingly respectable souls supporting it and others decrying it. For myself, though I don't use it, I guess I am always interested in others' findings on any of these topics. What did the other pressure signs look like? THANKS for posting!!
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16 Verbum Domini Manet in Aeternum.





GSP7
Location: USA
Ive settled on 286gr PP 45gr imr4895 Still playing with the 232gr oryx 232gr oryx 52gr imr4895 For the 232gr I want to try a faster powder than imr4895 Got to buy some either imr 3031 , w748 , hmmm, maybe H322 or H BL2






Kwahe
Location: USA
Dear friends..... I have again taken up arms after a long layoff devoted to other play (and some work, of course....but as little as possible). I had left off last fall with some 9.3x57 experimentation on the Swedish powder Norma N201 under a Swedish bullet, the Norma 232-grain Vulcan. I had just discovered the impressive velocity and amazing accuracy of 49 grains of N201 and had loaded up 0.4 grain increments either side of 49 grains, just to see where the best accuracy was with my rifle (HVA FN 98 made in 1959). Those loads sat for months in the basement, until today. But intervening variables must apply: first, it is 85 degrees instead of 50, and second, I forgot how to shoot accurately enough to make direct comparisons in that category. Also, recoil seemed a bit remorseless today. In addition, I again modified my rear sight setup to accomodate for the low front sight on the HVA. Finally, I am shooting point blank, which is a good thing as all sights are fixed, just like the original V-sight. I filed out a dovetail in a rear scope sight base (my rifle was already drilled and tapped) and slid home a Williams peep insert. A bit more filing to allow the bolt to pass, and voila! Came out just right. What luck. I fired five shots per group and averaged the velocities and case expansion: OAL was 3.0 in. in all loads. Chronometer is a Chrony......good ol' trusty Chrony: N201 and 232-grain Norma: 48.2 gr.....2445 fps.....moderate case expansion.....good acc. 48.6 gr.....2453 fps.....moderate exp.....good accuracy 49.0 gr.....as reported in prior post above 49.4 gr.....2533 fps.....moderate exp.....good accuracy 49.8 gr.....2551 fps.....moderate exp.....fair accuracy Reloader 7 and 232-gr Norma: 41 gr.....2375 fps......moderate expansion.....fair accuracy 42 gr.....2420 fps......near max expansion.....fair accuracy As you can see, the Norma powder and Vulcan bullet are a very potent and accurate combination. A 232-grain bullet going 2550 fps generates 3375 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty for absolutely any creature in North America. What remains unknown at this point is the terminal behavior of the Vulcan at 2500+ fps. I'm sure it would be fine for deer, but may expand too rapidly for elk and moose at those velocities. On the other hand, Swedes used the Norma 232-grain PPC (which looks VERY much like the Vulcan) with their 9.3x62s in a moose hunting study done by Norma years ago, reported by Al Miller in "Big Bore." That caliber sent the bullets over 2600 fps. So, perhaps the Vulcan/PPC would be good for the big animals, too. C'est la! Kwahe
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There is some great load info in this thread. Perhaps a new sticky is required to keep track of further load development for the 9.3x57.
 

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After spending the requisite time reading this whole thread (I'm new to this site), I have some comments. Hopefully, this site re-posts the thread to the top of the forum list when new posts are entered.
: In regards primers backing out. #1, this shows excessive headspace on that particular case in that particular chamber. Necking up your brass to a larger size, either .375" or .40 cal, then sizing it down only far enough to allow a 'crush' fit on chambering will eliminate the backing out of primers. The reason for this, is now the case properly fits the chamber and will not allow the primer to back out. That the primer backed out and stayed, indicates the pressure was low enough, that the case walls adherred to the chamber wall, reducing the bolt thrust to next to 0. If the chamber pressure had been high enough to push the case back against the bolt face as with normal factory ammo in most modern rounds, the primer would have re-seated and would have ben given some flattening appearance due to being slammed against the bolt face. This is why primer appearance alone is a poor indicator of excessive pressure.
; #2. - Case measurements - should be taken at the expansion ring- it's very visible on most cases. Your michrometer will show you where it is - like previously posted, it's the largest diameter of the case, and usually 2/10" to 3/8" ahead of the rim. Some reloaders measure the case head itself, at the solid head portion, as well as some measure the rim. In either of these methods, one must mark the case and measure prior to firing, then again in exactly the same spot after firing. With case ' head' measurements, any expansion over .001" is excessive for ctg. that develope over 60,000PSI. Since the 9.3x57 is a 50,000 to 55,000PSI round, case head measurement should not be done - only case "BASE" (expansion ring) measurements have useable meaning and only if factory ammo is fired and measured first. It is generally allowed that factory measurements + .001" are OK.
: #3, bullet diameter - minor increase or decrease in bullet diameter usually has almost no effect on pressure - repeat - little effect if any - as long as the bullet has some movement prior to engaging the rifling lands. Seating the bullet at different 'jump' locations makes a bigger difference in velocities and pressure than the diameter of the bullet.
: #4 - Powders - H414 is supposed to be the ball equivalence of H or IMR4350. Because it is a dense ball powder, it is useable in some ctg. that cannot hold enough of the equivalent stick powders. It may be useable in the 9.3x57- I don't know. BLC2 and H335, both faster burning than H414 and also dense, may allow most excellent performance in this round - I will find out that for myself and probably post the results. I am still mending form a badly screwed up shoulder, so any meaningful testing might be down the road. H4895 should be preferrable to IMR 4895 due to the Hodgdon marked powder being an Extreme powder. This means it is very much less susecptable to pressre and velocity changes with temperature extremes. The Hodgdon ball powders are not extreme powders, but I've had excellent results in other ctg. with them so continue use them. BLC2 gave marvelous results in the 9.3x62, so may also be an excellent powder in the 9.3x57.
; #5 - Case Capacity - My measurements of factory Sako 9.3x62 brass, fired in a Styer rifle, revealed a water capacity of 78gr. If 9.3x57 brass has a capacity of 54gr. as indicated earlier, it's capacity is only.67% of the 62mm case. This is easily understood since the 9.3x62 case would qualify as an Ackley Improved case here in North America - it's virtually a blown '06 case with a larger head diameter.
; Mail just came and my brass and some more bullets just arrived. Time to get busy forming brass. Since my m46 has a bit of excessive heaspace, it all must be necked up to .375 first, before sizing - no problem - just have to mount the expander die in anther press. Everyone has at least 3 on their bench, don`t they?
 

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Hate to reply to my own posts, but further thoughts on case head expansion need to be clarified, (I thought).
: Measuring the web, called case head expansion by some people, as stated above and by others is an excellent method of determining useable prressures. One must be aware, however, that initial expansion with even moderate loads can show up to .008" expansion. This is more often noticable in military chambers which generally are a bit oversize for battelfield conditons. This situation, however is not restricted to military rifles. Many modern rifles show up to this .008"expansion, including Rugers, Remintons, Winchesters, whatever. A brand new reamer cuts a larger chamber than one that's been sharpened 3 times.
: Many FL sizing dies oversize the brass too. For this reason, I and others I am aquainted with, when ordering chamber reamers, measure the new brass we are going to use, and order a reamer around .001" larger than the brass. If we plan to chamber barrels holding the reamer back, we'll order the reamer .002" to .003" larger than the full length brass. With a store-bought rifle, this isn't an option, we're stuck with whatever the mfgr. supplied and they are usually much larger there than we want, and fired brass sometimes shows an unsightly expansion ring. Having a large ring is not "IN ITSELF" an indication of excellive pressure as some people believe.
: Most factory chambers are considerably larger in the 'web' or case head than the brass we use. This is why some rifles show greater expansion in that location than others and the reason some die manufacturers sell dies that 'oversize' in that location. They make dies that will size brass to fit in all chambers, large and small. Chambering mfgr's as well as rifle makers have minimum and maximum tolerances. If you get a maximum tolerance die and a minimum tolerance chamber, you may not be able to size someone elses fired brass enough to make it fit. You've been caught by the tolerance, felt by many varminters to be excessive.
; I have found that when working up loads for an individual ctg., that case head or web expansion, gradually increases in one spot of the case's diameter more than others. This was also indicated by Kwahe in his excellent post in this thread. Further to that, I've found that once the maximum expansion has been reached (ie: .001" smaller than the chamber at that point), the case will usually start to even out this measurement around the cases curcumferance. In other words, more and more of the case will reflect that maximum measurement at that point. I hope this is clear.
: Striving for another 100fps seems a North American goal and I'm about as guilty as anyone else in this regard. My goal with the 9.3x57 is to achieve about 2,230 to 2,250fps with the 270 and somewhat over 2,400fps with the 232gr. Vulcan. I'll be happy with a 286gr. running around 2,100fps but probably won't use them much - pretty expensive for me when 270gr. Speers are only $20.00/50.compared to $35.00/50 for Normas.
: To get those performance levels should be relatively easy, but to stop short, is to realize less than the ctg. can produce with ease.
: Just because the 1920 ballistics were held to 39,00CUP, is no reason to hold them there, today. Thier powders then were flighty and they had to be extra careful. They also varried greatly with temperature changes and were used a lot in Africa. If one works carefully, one can achieve better ballistics than what the ctg. was originally loaded to. In the article on 9.3x57 in Big Bore Ctg. a note that Normal data shows pressures to 47,000CUP.
: We know from previous experience that the 8x57 brass is just as strong as any other, at least with WW and RP brass. In good conditon M98 actions, the 8x57 's, 9.3x57''s or whatever chambering it happens to have, can be loaded to modern-type pressures for any .469" head diameter. similar tapered cases routinely are loaded to 53,000cup and higher depending on the chambering. Case shape comes into this equation, as straighter cases show less bolt thrust. With a lot of taper, stickiness of the bolt will probably show before any other high pressure sign.
: Use your own discretion with M96 actions, of course. Much more knowldgeable people than I, ie: PO Ackley and a fellow named 'Arch' felt the 96 was about as strong as the 98 and perhaps better than war-time 98's. The lack of the 3rd lug being practically meaningless - no Rem or Winchester action has one and all the Mauser actions have better gas control, the 98 being the best of the crop, old and new alike.
 

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I agree that the back out primers may be symptom of the sizing method employed by the Hornady FL dies in necking up 8x57mauser brass to 9.3mm. I also agree that passing a .375 expansion die through the neck, then squeezing back down to 9.3mm leaving a false shoulder to headspace upon, should prevent primer backout.

Overall, two interesting posts you did there. I look forward to reading about your future results.
 

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Any time you see a backed-out primer you are seeing:
: 1/. an action which has excessive headspace (excessively long chamber-body - or
: 2/. you have physically introduced excessive headspace on that ctg. by artificially shoving the shoulder back yourself.
: This really has nothing to do with the dies used, or the manufacturer of the dies used. All dies are capable of shoving the shoulder back if you bottom the shell holder against the die's base. If you have a maximun chamber (long within tolerances) and a minimum die (short within tolerances), you can actually inadvertainly shove the shoudler back, up to an amazing .075". I've seen it happen. This is a situation that is ripe for a case head separation at worse or excessively thinning the case at the web, in best case senarios. If you shove the sholder back again, it will probably separate or show the ring indicating insipient case head separation. Separations have nothing to do with pressure and everything to do with headspace - rifle and/or ctg.
: You can safely load ammo for rifles that have chambers with excessive headspace (up to about .040") by first opening up the case then sizing to produce a false shoulder for headspacing. When making my .375/06 and 9.3x62 brass from '06 brass, I first neck them up to .40", then back down to headspace on the new shoulder. After making up 50 9.3x57 cases, I've come to the conclusion I'd have been better off necking the 8x57's up to .40 as well, virtually straight, then back down to get a good solid shoulder. The shoulder produced äfter using the .375 expander is a bit small and easily crushed by the cam action of the bolt, so is not capable of doing it's job properly. I'll re-due the brass before testing. With tapered expanders, this is a one-step job, as easy as any FL sizing job. I use STOS lube for this job as it's the best I've found.
; STOS is sold by Ponsness Warren as a high pressure lube. Imperial die wax is also good. Both wipe off easily, unlike some case lubes. I just roll the cases between my palms covered with an old towel - 10 at a time.
; Tjhis picture shows left to right - 8x57 then 8x57 necked up to 9.3x57 then 9.3x57 necked up to .41x57, then .41x57 necked back down to 9.3x57 with the shoulder moved forward .019" due to headspace in chamber. This was done lubing both the inside and outside of the case. I then necked up 5 8x57 brand new brass to .41x57 in one pass, then back down to 9.3x57. At this time, the necks could use annealing, but previous experience with other ctgs. has shown they will take 2 or 3 firings before this becomes necessary. I have necked old, several times laoded .30/06 brass up to .41cal., then back down to .375, fireformed them to .375/06IMP then fired them 3times without any splits. Prudence says they should all be annealed before this time.
: A tapered expander is used for necking up operations, much the same shape, but longer than the one in a set of Hornady dies. This is mounted in any expander-die body. .458 expanders for cases like the .45/70 are handy to have as they can be turned for 3/8" then gently tapered for this work, yet still work with the .45 cal rifles.

;The second picture makes the bullets look dumpy due to the angle - sorry. The first bullet is the 232gr. Vulcan Norma, profile and point, while the second is the 270gr. Speer, profile and cup-pointed with a tapered cutter. When the cutter gets to the jacket, the ring of lead comes free. Stopping then, ensures the weight, bullet to bullet. The cup-pointed Speers now weight 263gr.\

 

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Further to the previous, here are some sectioned bullets. The first being a .38 spl. case, rin turned off and cut in half to show jacket thickness of it's brass case, next is a .223 Military case, cut off and sectioned. These both measure .375"and require annealing and swaging down to .366'or whatever your groove diameter is. The third is a .220 Hornady, 375"and fourth, a 235gr. speer. Next is a .366" 232gr. Norma vulcan showing very heavy jacket indeed, and last is the 270gr. Speer. All these were set face down on an anvil and tapped with a hammer to open the jackets slightly, so show the jacket thickness a bit better.
; The 220gr. Horandy shows exceptionally thick jacket for it's relatively low velocity job in the .375 Winchester case, to about 2,200fps. It works splendidly on Moose to 100yards so should be a good addition to the 9.3 lineup, once swaged down for the 9.3x57. I was especially surprised to see the jacket thickness on the Vulcan bullet - it is very heavy indeed for shooting in the 2,300fps to 2,400fps range. Big Bore Ctgs. lists this bullet to 2,450fps using W748 powder and an excellent bullet it "should' be. He obtained 2,485fps with 3031, which means he could have beat that with 748, a slower burnign powder if there was enough room (or if he wanted to). He did note that 748 gave the best accuracy with this bullet in his rifle.
: With the 220gr. Hornady from my .375 Winchester, I drove it only 1,940fps yet it's performance on Canadian moose was spectacular. Hitting them in the right place works - every time. I suspect the newer 225gr. Hornady spire point will also be a good addition to the list of .366" bullets, once swaged down.
; The .223 case is quite heavy in wall thickness at the rearend. I must emphasize these need to be annealed before swaging, or can be shot as-is in a .375 calibre rifle- once filled with lead, of course. It might be a good diea to swage them for the 9.3 prior to filling with lead. Once cleaning with steel wool on a stick, wipe the interior of the case with a very light swipe with a cotton swab using solder flux before pouring the core. This may help adhere the core to the 'jacket' and make it expand less rapidly, if that is desired. They actually work well, as-cast as a previous photo shows, even when driven fast.
; Note the deep cannelure and the "Interlock"on the 220 gr. Hornady. These must help. As I noted elsewhere, this bullet actually went through both shoulders of a big Canadian Moose. It made a frantic dash ending after 1-1/2 steps- a 2 second kill.
 

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LeeSpeed: Neck sizing 9.3X57

Do you only neck size only new brass, or do you do it every time you reload the case? Is there any time that you full length resize?
 

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Do you only neck size only new brass, or do you do it every time you reload the case? Is there any time that you full length resize?
; If your chamber doesn't have excessive headspace, then size the brass only down to the base of the neck. Do not touch the shoulder at all and see if they chamber. That means you will have to adjust the die so the shell holder doesn't touch it - perhaps 1/8" gap. If they don't chamber, then you'll have to touch the shoulder for the first firing. It is not normally necessary after that.
; If when sizing the new brass the first time, it chambers freely, try sticking a layer of masking tape on the case head and re-chamber the case. Extract and look at the tape. If it isn't scrubbed, put on another layer. If you can feel resistance while closing the bolt, from the tape, ie: extract and find the tape scrubbed or scraped sideways, then you are OK to shoot the rifle and it is within specs. Most masking tape is .003". So 2 thicknesses is .006"to .007".
: If by chance, the bolt closes on 2 layers of masking tape on the case head, you should open the necks up to .40 as I have shown above, then neck them down only far enough to let them chamber. My rifle, a normal rifle in excellent shape all round, had .019" headspace. This is excessive.
; After forming my brass as in the post above, necking up to .41, then back to 3.64 (Inside Diameter)", a very light test load of ball powder, that badly smoked the case neck, did not back the primer out at all. It can't back out if the headspace is perfect. In the process of making my brass as described, I made it fit the chamber perfectly.
; Subsequent sizing with be with a backed out Fl die that only sized 3/4's of the neck. That is all that's needed.
 

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If I remember the thread as it was before the re-post, and it was a great thread about 4 pages long, it was determined my many of the posters that most of the 9.3x57 chambers were long. Because of that most people were fire forming their cases and then neck sizing, keeping brass seperate between different rifles. Most of the backed out primers came during the lower charge phases of the various load developments. I remember seeing a few backed out primers with new cases but once the Norma cases were fire formed to my chamber that problem went away.

Smokepole50
 

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If I remember the thread as it was before the re-post, and it was a great thread about 4 pages long, it was determined my many of the posters that most of the 9.3x57 chambers were long. Because of that most people were fire forming their cases and then neck sizing, keeping brass seperate between different rifles. Most of the backed out primers came during the lower charge phases of the various load developments. I remember seeing a few backed out primers with new cases but once the Norma cases were fire formed to my chamber that problem went away.

Smokepole50
;
; The only problem with firing ammo in a long chamber, is the stretch ring has then been formed just above the top of the web, about 1/10" above, is normal.
; Depending on how 'long' the body of the chamber is, depends on whether or not the brass continues to flow forward from that point, due to it's relative weakening in that area.
; Necking up then back down is the best 'fix' and turns a long chamber into a normal one as the brass then fits pefectly.
; The reason for the stretch, is that the firing pin shoves the case forward to contact the shoudler on firing. The primer of course, then backs out to contact the bolt face. The burning powder increases internal pressure and expands the case to grip the chamber walls and the bullet is on it's way. If the pressure is high enough to exceed the elasticity of the brass the case stretches from just above the web, and the head moves back to contact the bolt. The body is still holding onto the chamber walls when this happens. The case head stretching back to contact the bolt face, reseats the primer and causes some 'extra' flattening that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
; Only neck sizing after fireforming factory length brass can possibly save the brass from failure. Case head separation due to the stretch usually has a benign result, merely sooting the bolt and face of the shooter while sticking the case in the chamber. If the action holds, and it usually does, The only negative is the destroyed case and powder residue inside the bolt, around it and around your shooting glasses - you do wear them, don't you?
: Many people are too lazy to form their brass to fit properly, and choose to merely fireform and 'hang the consequences', put faith if chance, etc. For them to lubricate the case prior to insertion into the chamber can prevent the case from gripping the chamber walls at the crutial time, and the case will stretch or blow forward at the shoulder, not the web. There may still be a stretch ring at the shoudler, but not in the dangerous area of the web - a place you don't want weakness.
; Lubing the case is not dangerous. judging form most of the loads I see here, you fellows are far from developing and dangerous bolt thrust. If you were loading to 60,000PSI - lubing the case becomes less desirable as can lead to a locked bolt. With the low pressures of the 9.3x57, this is not an issue.
 

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Very interesting post Daryl. I guess I always figured the brass streached uniformly with low pressure fire forming loads. I will now need to purchase a OAL gauge to check the shoulder length of my fired and unfired Norma cases. Not a problem, have been needing to get one for some time. All my initial testing was done in a 98 action but I have since purchased a 96 action in 9.3x57 and I don't want a case head seperation in that rifle so it will get new brass.

Did you buy a special die to take the cases up to .41 x57 or just change the tapered expander?

What are you using to make your hollow point/cupped 270gr Speer bullets? Have you used these on game and if so what size animals?

Smokepole50
 

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Brass is not supposed nor designed to stretch more than SAAMI or CIP standards which run pretty much universally with most or all ctgs. at .006"- apparentl;y .007"CIP with some ctgs.
: ANYTHING more than .006" is EXCESSIVE and not allowed for sale as it can be dangerous. Mine was .019" and should never left the factory. Now - to clarify my situation - it was .019" on necked up 8mm Mauser, which 'should' have the same datum line to head stamp measurement - ie: headspace measurement.
; I used a typical die body for expanding necks. These, in RCBS, are universally enormous inside, with a 1/2" NF thread. You can buy 1/2"NF bolts about any machine equipment supplier. One is turned or filed down and tapered for expanding case necks. Pretty easy to make just as a lot of this stuff. When I get my camera picture loading program working again, I'll post some pictures. If you are a person who must be able to walk into a store and buy the item, you can buy a .410"expander plug for an RCBS die, buy the die body, then taper the expander plug with files. The plug must be held in a drill press, a lathe of in an electric drill held in a bench vice. I used the bench/vice/drill system for over 20 years, until 10 years ago. It worked well for me then and will for you too. You will learn how to file and do amazingly accurate work with files and your 'poor-man's lathe'. Using files and the drill, I've turned off rims and cut new extractor grooves for some wildcats as well. I made all my .38 Super brass this way from .357 mag brass years ago & it worked just as well as store-bought .38 super brass.
; Turning down a neck expander to the size you need is simple. You will need a michrometer and a 'set' of dial calipers. I really don't know why it's calipers with an "S", but that's what the tool is called - I guess because there are two arms that do the measuring.
; The expander plugs will have to be annealed before turning. Now everyone has a Propane, Map Gas (or oxyacetyline) torch, don't they? Any of thes will work. Oxy. Acet. is faster that's all. Mapp Gas is quite fast as well, hotter than Propane and great for silver soldering (hard solder brazing) small parts sights and such.
: I chucked the 270's in the 3 jaw and ran a pointless centering pilot bit into the nose until the nose lead came free. At that point, I stopped, just as the angles of the main centering bit touched the bullets jacket, freeing the nose and maintaing excellet weight consistancy.
: I havne't shot anything with them - yet. I kinda like the sounds of the penetration tests LeeSpeed did with the unaltered bullet. Since my main focus is grizzlies and moose, I like a tough bullet.
; For deer and black bear, I'd load a swaged down 220 or 235gr. Speer, if I didn't have any 232gr. Vulcans.
 

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As to handloading the 9;3x57 and finding a starting place, I did some checking on .358 Winchester data in 10 different manuals and wrote down the maximum loads for each. None of them show to be excessive fand would be soft to moderate pressure in the 9.3x57, depending on the load. In an earlier thread, one of the chaps here (sorry forgot the name) mentioned this method of finding starting loads for his .46 9.3x57. I wrote him and concurred. Some of the data is moderate and only a couple grains weight below what is commonly called max here for that rifle.
; Steve, I think was one Chap in a brought forward thread" came up with a 51.5gr. load of 4064 by Waters. He firt declaed it to be 57.0gr., but then reduced that to 51.5. Yes - both those would be more than excessive in a 57mm 9.3. - the only load I found similar this was not in Ken's data on the .358 Winchester, bu in Ken's work with the .35 Whelen and .35 Winchester. Obviously one must know his ctg. nomenclature to do any cross-referencing of data. The .35 Winchester was a necked down and shortened .405Winchester case of considerably more volume than we are working with - actually listed as 68.4gr. capacity in Donnely's HandBook on ctg. conversions. This just goes to show we must know what we're doing and not only read, but understand every word.
; Waters loaded nothing heavier than a 220 gr. bullet in the .358 data he shows in Pet Loads. His maximum load given in "Pet Loads" with IMR4064 is 45.0gr. with the 220gr. bullet. If he has an "Update"to his data, then I don't have that one in my library.
; If you load 45.0 gr. of IMR 4064 with a 220gr. bulelt in the 9.3x57, you will not experience anything but a mild load. Personally, I don't like soft fireforming loads, never have. Brass forms much better and more accurately, filling the chamber better with a moderate load for the formed case. I don't use max loads for fireforming except in 2 rifles- a .17AH and a .375/06IMP. They are what I call max and I don't have primer pocket failure for well over 20 rounds. If I don't use heavy loads in the .17 I get shoulder splits which happen due to not getting a fast enough bump in pressure. In the .375, I use them because they aren't excessive, form the brass perfectly and are as accurate as formed brass - same poi as well.
; The heaviest bullet data I could find for the .358Win. was in an old Lyman #45 handbook. The 275gr. bullet they laoded for was run up with max loads of 42.0gr. of IMR4895, 43.0gr. BLC2 and 43.0gr. H335. None of these will be more than mild to moderate loads for the 9.3x57, using either 270 or 286gr. bullets. Barnes CTgs. of the World, Barnes bullets and Ackley's books gave the heaviest powder charges of any of the manuals. They list up to 50gr. Varget for the 250gr. which would be a moderate load. I would reduce that by 2gr. and start there. Reducing any of the data by 5% would also be prudent, just because your rifle might have a tight throat, neck, or produce high pressure just because.
: Most commonly used bullets in .358 are, of course, 180, 220 and 250's. This data is a starting point only, for similar bullet weights. You can use the loads I just printed for the 270 and 286, ie: the imr4895, H335 and BLC2 listed for the 275gr. in the .358.
; Note - do NOT use data for the .35 Winchester, an outdated obsolete round for the M86 levergun, or any data for the .35 Whelen. Obviously that is dangerous.
; I hope this helps.
 

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What'll I do?

I've been a lurking novice reloader around for awhile, and stopped in for some wisdom on loading my 9.3x57mm. There's obviously a lot of that, along with money spent on chronographs and bullet resizing stuff. I just sized up a batch of 8x57 brass to 9.3, with a batch of Prvi Partisan 286grain bullets. I have IMR powders here at home, in what is known in some circles as BFE (actually, SE SoCal), and no money to pay Midway the extra charges for a pound of friggin' powder. I have IMR 4895, 4350, 4831 (nice slow stuff for my .270) and 3031. Once my head stopped swimming over chamber casting and I looked at a dummy case I worked up, I noticed it was shorter than some recommendation I read, but it obviously didn't bang up against the lands, and chambered well. I read several references to H4895, but don't know enough to compare it (even though IMR powders are found on the Hodgdon website- go figure). There was some oblique reference to the IMR 3031, which seems ideal for many military rounds based on reading my Speer, Barnes, and Sierra manuals (none of which, of course, properly reference the 9.3x57 Husky). Now I find myself scared s___less (sorry, God, but the expletive seems too precise to avoid). I'm thinking of about 40gr. of IMR4895 for fireforming, backed out primers notwithstanding. The question I have, considering I have no high tech stuff to check this out (jus' me 'n' my Rockchucker, one at a time), is: am I nuts, or am I doing OK? Just need a safe starting point before I go out killing milk jugs, pine boards, and moose. Whatchall think?
 

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How come I didn't see Darryl's post right above me before? Oi! I think I must have read only page 1 of the reposts for this thread. This last one(prior to my whining) is most helpful!
 

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Unfortunately, I was mistaken about the notation on the .35 Winchester - it was designed for the Model 95 Win, not the M86. The .35 was a high pressure round, like the .30/06 of the day, also chambered in the model 95, but considerably underloaded by today's standards - something like 49,000CUP, which would be around an actual 55,000PSI(not CIP pounds)
; It's all very confusing with the European CIP measurements with calling them PSI, while the numbers almost exactly correspond with CUP, which for most bottleneck cases is way below actual Pezio transducer pounds per square inches. For example, 55,000 to 57,000CUP in a mag. case is closer to 63,000 to 65,000 psi, yet the CIP for the same round, also called PSI is 56,000 to 58,000PSI.
: Further note on case capacities - Donnely, and all the wildcatters I know along with Ackley use the full case capacity to the top of the neck as the actual capacity. Ken Waters used water weight to the bottom of the neck - unfortunately, this measurement changes with ever bullet weight and throat dimension, so is not a stable measurement.(done his 'new' way) Measurement to the top of the neck remains the same, regardless of the bullet and is the accepted proper way to measure capacities.
: Now, that said here are some pertinent capacities that concern us.
: .358 Winchester - 57.56gr. capacity.
: 9.3x57 Mauser - 64.27 capacity - My brass went 60.5gr. in .30/06 brass, a bit heavier construction than 8mm Mauser RP brass, which wil be different from Norma brass. This is why one should know what it is. This will show one of the many reasons different guys get different ballistics from their rifles with identical loads.
; For interest's sake- the .35 Winchester's capacity is 68.74gr. You cannot use .35 Winchester data for the 9.3x57.
: You can, however use .358 Winchester data for an indication of where to start. Reduce max. .358 Win loads by 5% and go from there.
: Dratpatrol - you can use both IMR 4895 and IMR 3031 in your 9.3x57.
: I prefer the 4985's (both Hodgdon and IMR powders with the same numbers have similar burn rates and energy per grain). The Hodgdon powders are now "Extreme'powders which means they are not effected much at all by low or high temps. I know this is fact. 3031 is a bit fast burning for me, but also will work well with the lighter bullet weigths and is very accurate in some rifes and ctgs.
: With 270 Speers and IMR4895, start at 43.5gr., rather than 40.00. Once you get a bit too low with the charges, the velocity drops very rapidly. 40.0gr. is getting close to a reduced load, and H4895 is better suited for reduced loads than IMR 4895. If the pressure gets too low, you will get a lot of blowback and maybe in your face as well. Powders are designed to operate within pressure zones. If you get bleow that powders zone, it starts giving problems, like smoky cases, collapsed shoulders, developing excessive headspace in the brass, etc. Data in front of me right now, suggests up to 47.0gr. IMR 4895as maximum with 270gr. Speers @ 2,205fps. With 3031 and the same bullet you might want to start at 38.0gr. as 42.0 is listed at max at 2,110fps. W748 lists at 48.0gr. being max at 2,165fps, start at 45.0gr.
: With 232gr. bullets, 3031 works better, due to the lighter weight of the bullet. Start at 44.0gr., with a max around 48.0gr.
: With 286gr. bullets, I'd not use 3031, but only 4895. Start at 42.0gr. and go from there, watching for pressure signs. Somewhere around 45.0gr. might be getting close to max, depending on our rifle.
: Handloading is not for the faint of heart, especially for rounds with which there is little or no data. You can not go wrong using .358 Winchester max loads, BUT- only with the same bullet weight. You will note there are few 'same' weight bullets. .358's have 180gr. 200gr. 220gr./ and 250gr.. Older manuals have data to 275gr. - ie: old Lyman books #44 and #45. Reducing .358Winchester loads by 5% is a lawyer-esc move on my part and is only necessary with some of Barnes Ctgs. of the World data and some Barnes bullets data. I don't know the accuracy of your powder scale, or how you use one. I don't know your experience with loading and see by your available powder supplies, you might not be as prolific a loader and shooter as I am. One must be cautious these days.
: Hodgdon bought IMR - that's why it's on their site.
 

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When the snow clears a bunch, I'll do some comprehensive (for me) work with this rifle. I really like the rifle a lot and see no detriment to the chambering being on a m96 action, Husky's M46.
: Once I can get onto a bench and set up the chronograph, I should be able to shoot left handed as the right side won't take to more than about 10 rounds.
: Hopefull, I can explore powders like BLC2, H335, H380, H414, W748, AA2230, AA2460 and AA2700 along with the older 4895's and etc., then pass along my findings.
: With their much better case filling physical characteristics, the slower ball powders might improve performace slightly and at the same pressures as normal. This is common with most Ball powders, IF and WHEN the proper ones are used. Their propensity for flowing accurately in descent powder measures is a big pluss in their use, allaying the need to weigh every powder charge. I've been playing with ball powders for almost 40 years now just because of this free flowing feature.
: Some of them do not work well with low pressure loads however and the result is usually a huge fireball in front of the muzzle - most blinding at night and not needed when 'chasing' grizzlies out of camp.
: As to barrel length, don't ever let anyone tell you the barrels on these rifles are too long - they're perfect and due to their legnth, the rifle ballances well for offhand shooting. Too many rifles with short barrels are difficult to shoot offhand due to lack of muzzle weight - the Huskies are most excellent for shooting form real hunting positions. Most people shorten barrels just because carbine length barrels are championed by some gun writers.
: If I can pack a 42" barreled flintlock through willows when on snowshoes, shooting rabbits, surely you can pack 24 1/2" barreled modern rifle and be happy. Action length aside, it would be like packing a modern rifle with a 36" barrel. With iron sights, the longer 24 1/2" barrel is a benefit with a longer sight radius, again helping with accuracy. First time I shot mine at the range, I shot 2 groups offhand - one of 2.090" and one at 1.75". They were shot at close range, only 48.3 yards(44meters), but speak for the rifle's accuracy and holding capability - along with my modified sight, of course. Hopefully, some load work will tighten those groups further.
 

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Well, the snow cleared enough to expose the benches and allowed me to set up the chronograph for some testing. It was an exciting day to say the least.
; 1st of all, sized ned brass measured .466" on the web - the largest size area of the 9.3x57 case. I was using re-formed 8x57, as noted elsewhere in this thread. Note that size - .466"
: I did shoot acouple groups at 100 meters, hand held on the bags, but has scope slip in the rings and groups were nothing to write home about - best group was with the swaged 300gr. RN's (.367") at 1.8" for 3 shots.
; Winchester Large Rifle Primers used in all loads. Previously, I'd done some pressure testing and came up with these loads to try. None of these loads were excessive in my rifle as shown by the expansion of the web. However, while my chamber is long, it isn't large ie: the Web area is perfectly sized for the brass. This is not normal for any American made rifle in which some examples show up to .008" expansion at the web due to oversized chambers. OAL means over-all-length.This chamber is overlong by .019", not oversize in diameter. Here are my chrongraph results:
: 232gr. Norma Vulcan - 48.5gr. H335 2.990" OAL - 2,317fps - no case expansion
: 232gr. Norma Vulcan - 50.0gr. H335 2.990" OAL - 2,362fps - no case expansion
: 232gr. Norma Vulcan - 54.0gr. BLC2 2.990" OAL - 2,336fps - no case expansion
: 232gr. Norma Vulcan - 50.0gr. H4895 2.865" OAL - 2,442fps - .4662-" ie: .0002" expansion in one spot only.
: 232gr. Norma Vulcan - 52.0gr. H4895 2,990" OAL - 2,436fps - .4662"- ie: .0002" expansion in one spot only.
:220gr. Horn. FN .375 to .367" - 52.0gr. H4895 - ?OAL- 2,547fps no expansion
: 225gr. Horn.SP .375 to .367" - 52.0gr. H4895 - ? OAL- 2,558fps no expansion
: 260gr. Speer cup pointed 270gr.-45.8gr. H335 - 3.045" OAL -2,188fps - no expansion
: 270gr. Speer SemiRN - 50.0gr. BLC2 - 3.045" OAL - 2,111fps - no expansion
: 270gr. Speer SemiRN - 48.0gr. H4895 - 3.045" OAL - 2,268fps - 1 case out of 10 showed 1 ten thousanth inch expansion ie: .46610 in one spot
: 300gr. Horn. RN- swaged to .367" - 45.0gr. H4895 - 3.070" OAL - 2,170fps. 2 case out of 10 showed .4662" and 1 case showed .4661" expansion ring measurements - in one spot only. The rest showed no expansion at all.
: Although I did not get even 1/2 thou expansion over sized brass with the top loads shown, I prefer to not go any further in this M46 Husky. As noted earlier, my chamber is a tight one. In previous testing without the chronograph, I did get expansion of .001" in earlier testing, ie: to .467" in some re-formed .30/06 brass, but it was slightly larger than the 8mm brass to start with. I feel my goals have been met for good useable ballistics for this round. It will make a great iron sigthed guide rifle and hunting rifle for that matter. Now to sight in the 'irons'. The scope is off.
; The ballistics speak for themselves and the best loads will be duplicated at a later date and retested. The temperture yesterday was 6C, which is about 43F or there abouts, along with a 15mph wind. As I noted, the scope was sliding foreward in the rings until it contacted the rear sight - didn't see that until finished - however did not a big POI shift at one point. Groups were not great, but OK for a hunting rifle, regardless of the scope movement during shooting. The 300gr. swaged .375's went into 1.8" and the 270's with the top load of 48.0gr. H4895 logged 1.9" and 2.0". I am sure I can do likewise with just the irons, given a suitable aiming point.
: Best load ballistics:
: 232gr. Norma @ 2,436 fps (long seat for accuracy)
: 270gr. Speer @ 2,268 fps
: 300gr. Horn. Swaged @ 2,170fps - I was absoutely floored with this. This load exceeds the original 9.3x62 factory load using a 286gr.soft and solid at 2,175fps. The load John Taylor was impressed with for all African game.
: All of these loads develop from 3,057fpe to 3,270fpe if that interests you.
: Reduce all loads by at least 5% before attempting to use this data in your rifle. Pay particular attention to cartridge overall length. Seating deeper raises pressure over long seating.
: My rifle has a .470" groove diameter, a full .004" oversize. This in itself is a pressure relief valve.
: Note the difference in velocity AND charge using H4895 with the 232gr. Norma Vulcans. The only difference in the loads is the overall length and charge. Not how the longer seating depth produced the same velocity even though the charge was increased 2 gr. This shows the longer seating actually reduced pressure, requiring an extra 2gr. to match precious velocity and pressure. With these larger calibres, more is gained by seating out and therefore increasing the case capacity, than seating deeply and making the leade into a freebore. Seating out is usually the most accurate of the two systems. In smaller calibres, these roles reverse.
: These ballistics are OK for about 99% of one's hunting needs. The lighter swaged 225gr. SP's at 2,560fps and the 232gr. Normas at 2,436fps make shooting deer out to 300yards an easy propostion is set 3" high at 100.
: The 270 and 300gr. make easy trajectories for any moose or elk to a good 250 yards - if the shooter is capable and practised for either, deer or larger game. The 232gr. Norma and swaged 225gr. Hornady make for good smaller big game loads to 300 yards. I am sure they would both do a credible job on moose and elk too.
 
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