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Discussion Starter #1
Swedish 1887 Nagant Revolvers
Printed from: Gunboards
Topic URL: http://old.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=225392
Printed on: 09/10/2007
Topic:
Topic author: NiklasP
Subject: Swedish 1887 Nagant Revolvers
Posted on: 05/03/2007 10:13:14 PM
Message:

Is there a table relating serial numbers of Swedish 1887 Nagant Revolvers to year of manufacture?

I would like to query Swedish used bookstores for user manual for Swedish 1887 Nagant Revolver (in Swedish, of course). Anyone here know the Swedish title, issue number, etc.? Looking for something with diagram showing parts, take apart instructions, etc., etc.

Thanks,
Niklas
Replies:
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/04/2007 11:36:01 PM
Message:

Pettson used to have production numbers by year on his site. I put together the following list based on that. It don't know where Pettson got his information.



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Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/05/2007 12:59:34 PM
Message:

Thanks foudufoot!

Mine is 1900 manufacture acccording to that table.

Now to find an accurate or approximate title, issue #, etc. for a User's Manual.

Niklas
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/05/2007 2:31:47 PM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by NiklasP


Mine is 1900 manufacture acccording to that table.



A relatively scarce one then! I have one of each of the first three years. I use the picture below as my desktop background. This one is a 1898, SN 3000.

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Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/05/2007 3:08:16 PM
Message:

Nice one! Mine is is very similar condition.

I am looking for a holster like the one you have. Know where I can get an original in good condition, or a nice replica? Especially looking for one in good enough condition to tolerate easily use in annual 2-4 day shooting matches featuring the old military guns and period equipment, dress, etc. (to the extent possible).

Thanks,
Niklas
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/05/2007 8:59:44 PM
Message:

They are fairly common and inexpensive on Ebay and Gunbrokers, Niklas. Dan
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/06/2007 12:26:40 AM
Message:

Thanks!

I have been watching both auction sites and have seen several for Russian Nagans but, none for Swedish ones. Will keep watching.

Niklas
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 05/07/2007 4:05:51 PM
Message:

Good work there, I reckon that should be fairly well on target.
There's not much to go on for the serail numbers I'm afraid. Although HVA still hold some archived material, most of it deals with commercial firearms. Production numbers, as posted on my website, are still available, and that, along with the research of collector/writer Thell, along with observations by other collectors, is about all we have to go on.

Niklas, instructions for the m/87 should be fould in most pre-WWII Army manuals, which are easy to find.
If scans would do, I can help you out.

Here's what I wrote on my website regarding disassembly, very freely translated from a manual;

- - -

"On this revolver, the order of disassembly was aided by marking the related parts with letters. These are related to in the instructions of the original Army manuals. It is almost like working on a piece of IKEA furniture... Haha...

Start by pulling out the ejector rod and turning it to the side. Next, pull out the cylinder yoke. Open the loading gate and remove the cylinder.
Next to the screw on the right sideplate, you will find the letter A. Undo this screw a bit, then tap it gently with the handle of a screwdriver or similar to loosen the sideplate. Repeat this until you can easily remove both the screw and the sideplate.
Turn the gun over and check out all the letters found inside...
Next, cock the hammer and insert the screw you removed at A into hole B. Slowly de-cock the hammer (C) and then lift it out.
The cylinder hand (D) can now also be lifted out, as can the hammer (E) after that.
Undo the screw (F) at the forward end of the trigger guard. The trigger guard can now be turned down and then unhooked at the rear end (G).
This also releases the main spring (H), which can now be lifted out.
Disassembly complete! Reassemble in reverse order.

- - -

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Pettson
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/07/2007 4:41:56 PM
Message:

Thanks Pettson!!

That information and diagram will take care of immediate needs quite nicely!

Yes, scans will be much appreciated. They can be sent to my e-mail address given in this account.

Thanks again!
Niklas
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/07/2007 9:16:47 PM
Message:

Thanks Pettson!

Niklas, regarding your question on the military side, I believe the L is for Landstormen based on similar markings on unit disks on some M96 rifles. However, unlike the infantry pistol and M96 rifle unit disks, the Landstormen pistols were not marked with the unit number, just a pistol number. My 1897 model is marked i2 No 151 A. This would be an infantry pistol. I don't know what the A stands for. My other two (1898 and 1899) were issued to Landstormen units:

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Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/07/2007 10:40:06 PM
Message:

foudufoot,

Mine has same format of markings as yours in last two pics. According to Pettson's take-apart instructions, "A" denotes the first screw to be removed -- nice simple Swede approach to things -- just like Ikea now uses.

SO, L No. 5626 means Landstormen revolver No. 5626. Seems quite reasonable to me. Know of any records that trace a specific Landstormen revolver to a specific militär unit or region?

Thanks to all this information, my revolver is bescoming more than just a nicely made gun from Sweden!

Thanks,
Niklas
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/09/2007 07:46:38 AM
Message:

Niklas, please note that my theory is not based on any records. Merely on piece of information and observations cobbled together from reputable sources. This alone would have earned me a very public flogging on another site.


However, we are on the more "progressive" side here, where experimentation (right LeeSpeed
), reasoning and deduction in the absence of hard data is allowed and, possibly, even encouraged.

Here's a photo from Dana Jones' Crown Jewels book, describing the rifle unit disks. The one on the right was for a Landstormen infantry unit and shows both the "L" and "i" markings also seen on the Nagants.

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To trace a pistol to a particular Landstormen unit, you would need records, if they exist. Looking for them would make for a neat little project for someone living in Sweden, don't you think?
Dan
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 05/09/2007 09:26:56 AM
Message:

You're on the right track there foudufoot.


Finding out where one of these Landstormen marked m/87's were used is probably next to impossible, unless they are marked with more than just the inventory number. I don't know of any records for Landstormen, and if there are any, they're probably held locally by the regiments. Or after many regiments have shut down, held by the lucal museums or stored in row 2476C at Armemuseum.
I really don't know, since I have hever had reason do dive into this topic. Would be an interesting one for a devoted researcher.

Inspector markings on the m/87;
The revolvers delivered to the army were inspected at Eskilstuna, and the m/87 typically is marked with one of the three following initials,
PB, PTB or HR, for officers Pontus Bruno, Per Theodor Bergsten and Herman Ribbing respectively.

Pettson
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/09/2007 10:06:57 AM
Message:

Thanks again foudufoot and Pettson!!

My M1887 was inspected by Herman Ribbing. I totally forgot to ask about that. Is always nice to get answers to questions not asked!

I would love to look for those Landstormen records, given the time. We are back in Sweden this summer but, only for a totally booked month. I have sometimes been successful with e-mail inquires on other Swedish topics. Is the Armemuseet a good place to start?

Thanks,
Niklas
Reply author: arilar
Replied on: 05/09/2007 10:50:29 AM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by NiklasP

Thanks again foudufoot and Pettson!!

I have sometimes been successful with e-mail inquires on other Swedish topics. Is the Armemuseet a good place to start?

Thanks,
Niklas

Give it a try!! If you get a fast answer I may wanna use you as a link into the "festung" (Armeémuseet).

Regards,
ARILAR
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/09/2007 8:45:03 PM
Message:

For the record, my 1897 was inspected by PB and my 98 and 99 by PTB. Yours, Niklas, is a 1900 inspected by HR. Now I have this urge to own an HR. Thanks alot guys!
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/09/2007 9:58:10 PM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by arilar
Give it a try!! If you get a fast answer I may wanna use you as a link into the "festung" (Armeémuseet).

Regards,
ARILAR



Now I maybe begin to feel like bulvan. You guys never shoot bulvanen, right?

Niklas
Reply author: Dutchman
Replied on: 05/13/2007 04:55:08 AM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by foudufoot

alone would have earned me a very public flogging on another site.










Reply author: LeeSpeed
Replied on: 05/13/2007 07:37:08 AM
Message:

Interesting post.

Anybody done any critter shooting with one of these things? They seem to produce, from what I can asertain from the paper ballistics, energies somewhere around the .32 Long category, pretty anemic. Anybody use one on small game?
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/13/2007 6:20:56 PM
Message:

I have been working on loads using full length 32-20 brass and Speer 98 grain 0,314 HBWC. Any decent loading with slower pistol/shotgun powders (Blue Dot, etc.) will penetrate 1/2 inch plyboard quite nicely, blowing out a 2-3 inch wide by 3-5 inch long area on the backside, at 20 long paces and still skip on downrange. That should drop grouse, hares, foxes, etc. nicely with good shot placement.

I am expecting that with slower powders I will be able to easily and safely achieve 800 fps muzzle velocity, perhaps more like 900, maybe even close to 1000 fps with this bullet. The 900-1000 fps would put it in 32-20 standard load territory from revolvers. MAYBE with even slower powders I can safely get 115-118 grain bullets up to these velocities. With those bullets, down range performance should be enhanced.

Niklas
Reply author: Dutchman
Replied on: 05/13/2007 6:36:50 PM
Message:

Niklas

You're dreaming. You're also on your way to blowing the cylinder on your revolver. These are blackpowder revolvers. The pressure levels typical for such a cartridge using blackpowder are around 6,000 psi. There needs to be some care excersized when publisizing experimental handloading in a public forum. You have no idea who reads your notes, who can be unduly influenced by your notes. Whether we like it or not, we need to be prudent. I'm just a visitor in this forum as it belongs to Petter. In the Swedish military forum I wouldn't allow unpublished or experimental load data for blackpowder revolvers to be shared. Its simply unwise to do so. Please reconsider the direction you're going with this and take this in the spirit that its offered.

Dutchman
Reply author: foudufoot
Replied on: 05/13/2007 6:55:12 PM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by LeeSpeed

Interesting post.

Anybody done any critter shooting with one of these things? They seem to produce, from what I can asertain from the paper ballistics, energies somewhere around the .32 Long category, pretty anemic. Anybody use one on small game?


I believe they were designed to put down two relatively common species: Homo Bellicus and Burglar Vulgaris. Slightly larger than varmint but definitely not elk-sized. Haven't had the opportunity to try mine on either species. Will let you know if I do!
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/13/2007 8:29:54 PM
Message:

Dutchman,

I do take your post in the spirit you offer it. I really have no argument with its basis. The paragraphs below are not intended to be argumentive but, to state in general terms the published loading information I am operating on. In no way do I condone or accept responsibility for folks operating outside some rather well established limits, or inside them either.

The loads I have been testing have chamber pressures down in the range of BP loads, thanks to the slowness of the powder burn. The load levels are rather conservative and based on published data, given for smaller capacity 32 caliber cartridges, that include pressure data. I do agree that attempting to use fast pistol and shotgun nitro powders in BP revolvers is just stupid -- I do not and will not do it, nor will I recommend it. ON that point, we are in total agreement. However, look at the published data for smaller capacity 32s, like 32 S&W Long, for powders slower than Blue Dot. Quite a different picture.

Even for 32 H&R Mag, with the same bullet I am using initially and Blue Dot, published chamber pressure from test barrel is under 8.000 psi, even with the deeply seated HBWC bullet in the much smaller 32 H&R Mag case (DO NOT use ANY DATA FOR OTHER 32 Mag loads!!!!!). I have a whole 0,3 inches more total case capacity with the full length 32-20 cases, not to mention the greater capacity because of greater diameter. Easy to calculate that a 1.000-2.000 psi decrease in chamber pressure will result.

There is nothing new about what I am doing. Read the published load data that give actual, measured crusher or pieziometric chamber pressures. Getting BP muzzle velocities at BP chamber presssures is not difficult, IF one sticks with suitable slow burn rate powders. For the 7,5 Nagant revolvers, the reference muzzle velocity is 800 fps for the original BP loading. I see no problem it matching that. How much, if any, I can safely better that is still undetermined.

Now that I have fireformed cases, I will be testing 777 FFg loads with the Speer HBWC bullets. These loads leave about as much space for the powder as the entire standard 7,5 Nagant case (no bullet) capacity. FYI, 777 FFg is pretty much a copy for Swiss FFg/FFFg as regards muzzle velocities and chamber pressures typical of true sporting burn rate BPs (Swiss is the only one remaining in production). Again, just following ancient practices for getting higher BP muzzle velocities by increasing case capacity (NOT by increasing chamber pressures).

Following my previous practices and experience, I expect to find 777 FFg to give one of the best grouping loads and at or near 7,5 Nagant velocity specs and with extensive case life and no cumulative damage to my 1887 Nagant. This will likely be my match load.

Niklas





Reply author: Dutchman
Replied on: 05/14/2007 12:07:49 AM
Message:

quote:Originally posted by NiklasP


The loads I have been testing have chamber pressures down in the range of BP loads, thanks to the slowness of the powder burn. The load levels are rather conservative and based on published data, given for smaller capacity 32 caliber cartridges, that include pressure data. I do agree that attempting to use fast pistol and shotgun nitro powders in BP revolvers is just stupid -- I do not and will not do it, nor will I recommend it. ON that point, we are in total agreement. However, look at the published data for smaller capacity 32s, like 32 S&W Long, for powders slower than Blue Dot. Quite a different picture.



When you try and extropolate load data from one caliber to another caliber you have to take into consideration the type of firearm. There are basically TWO types of traditional (old) load data for .32 revolvers. Top break and solid frame. The early top breaks were initially blackpowder and require a most prudent approach in handloading. Its not like they have the capacity to do much anyway with such a small case and bullet. The .32 S&W Short and Long are pretty wimpy. My concern was when I read that "1,000 fps" figure in your note. I'm concerned about that one.

I use Lyman 47th edition as my primary handloading manual. It has the widest coverage for what I handload. There is no pressure data on .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long. There is pressure data for .32 acp and it appears to max out around 15,000 cup. That's twice what the 1887 Nagant is designed for so I hope you don't use that data as reference. The .32 S&W Short is .075" shorter but with the same 71gr FMJ RN the load is 2.5grs of 700X for 722fps compared to 2.2grs in the .32acp for 14,700 cup. This is not good data for the 1887 Nagant.

When we get over to the .32 H&R Magnum, the chamber pressures max out in the range of 19,000 to 20,000 cup. The low end for this cartridge is 12,600 cup. This is woefully dangerous in the 1887 Nagant.

You say, "calculate chamber pressure". Chamber pressure isn't something you calculate, its something you measure. I'm getting the feeling here that you're trying to use mathematics to produce figures that should come from empirical data.

May I ask where you're seeing published chamber pressures for other .32 caliber handgun cartridges? I'd like to review them for reference. What I'm seeing in Lyman47 doesn't look viable for the 7.5 Nagant. I know these revolvers have been fired extensively with .32 S&W Long, this is what the boys do in Sweden. That doesn't make it right or safe. We cannot allow deviations from standard and accepted safety practices simply because we can't figure out the right way to load an old cartridge.

I'd like to hear more about the slow powders you're using, what type? I'm not saying any of this isn't possible, I just want to know more.

Dutchman
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/14/2007 11:19:36 AM
Message:

Dutchman,

I greatly enjoy data-based discussions!! Thanks for joining me!

First, one does have to hunt widely for suitable data from which to extrapolate (bounding or scoping calculations). Perhaps the single most useful peice of published data I have used is from 2002 Edition of Alliant Powder's Reloader's Guide, page 35, Pistol and Revolver Loads, for a target load for 32 H&R Mag. This is the ONLY peice of data for 32 H&R Mag that I have found suitable. Here are the numbers:
90 grain LWC, Fed 100 primer, OAL 1.1 inches, 3,7 grains Blue Dot, 805 fps, 7.800 psi. Blue Dot is the nitro powder I started with. I am now moving to 2400 (even slower than Blue Dot) as my next nitro powder. I may go to even slower nitro powders, such as 4227, Lil'Gun, H110, etc.

Other, less directly applicable loading data, with chamber pressures, are given in Hodgdon Basic Reloaders Manual 2005, page 33, Cowboy Action data, for 32 H&R Mag, HS-6 and Universal powders, 90 grain lead RNFP bullet. This datum is 4,6 grains HS-6, 845 fps, 10.900 psi. For Universal the datum is 3,0 grains, 819 fps, 8,400 psi. Both these powders have much faster burn rates that Blue Dot (see http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html for one good listing) and are faster burning than any I would use to attain BP chamber pressures and muzzle velocities.

Now, consider the following differences between that 32 H&R Mag target loading and what I am currently using.

First, consider relative case volumes for powder. The 32 H&R Mag is a straight case. The 32-20 and 7,5 Nagant are not straight-walled cartridges and the 32-20 is a nearly perfect fit for the 7,5 Nagant chamber, except for the necked-down part of the 32-20 case. So, immediately we have a slightly larger internal volume below the bullet. However, in the interest of being conservative, I ignore this.

Second, consider amount of space in case, below bullet, for powder. The 32 H&R Mag load quoted above has OAL of 1,1 inches and Lyman 47th gives case of 1,075 inches. Being the typical wadcutter load, the conical bullet is seated fully inside the case, leaving maybe 0,7 inches max space for powder. I am starting with full 32-20 case, 1,315 inches according to Lyman 47th, and am leaving at least 2,0 mm of Speer 98 grain hollow-based wadcutter bullet extending beyond end of case. SO, I have about 1,0 inches of empty case for powder. That gives me about 0,3 inch additional space for powder gasses to expand into.

Third, assume equally extensive burn of Blue Dot in the 32-20 case as in the much smaller 32 H&R Mag case. Also assume instantaneous burn of powder, with NO movement of bullet. This gass has 1,0/0,7 = 1.43 times more space into which to expand. Using simple assumption of same temperature of gas and same amount of powder, the 7.800 psi chamber pressure of the 32 H&R mag WC target load becomes 5.500 psi in the 32-20 + 98 grain HBWC load. At this level, this kind of scoping calculation is quite sane. But, one should never claim too much for such scoping calculations, no matter how well based or conservative they are. Real guns and real ammo have a number of deviations from the simple assumptions used here. I can tell you that using this load directly with the 32-20 cases and the Speer 98 grain HBWC bullets gives really low chamber pressures, complete with lots of unburned powder and incomplete obturation of the neck part of the 32-20 cases, which are quite thin brass. I can also tell you that one has to go to much higher loading before the necks of the thin 32-20 cases are obdurated enough for extensive blackening to cease.

Here are some additional considerations that have gone into development of this load. First, the Speer 98 grain HBWC is 0,314 inches in diameter and the 7,5 Swedish Nagant bore is something larger than 0,320. My recovered bullets all measured 0,320. The Speer 98 grain HBWC is soft lead (pure lead?). This softness and the rather deep hollow base lead to easy obturation to fit the rifling. The 32-20 case with this bullet leaves ample space for case neck to expand and release bullet. Once I got to loads that did fully obturate the 32-20 case neck, the loads grouped quite nicely. Cases fell from all chambers, even when still warm.

So much for this post.
Niklas

Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/14/2007 12:27:51 PM
Message:

Should add to above that the Speer HBWC bullet was chosen in part because there are ample data that one cannot drive this bullet at too high chamber pressures, least the gass pressure at the muzzle be so high as to deform the skirt, leading to larger groups. Speer in their reloading manual number twelve list maximum velocity 32 H&R Mag loads for their 98 grain HBWC at about 800 fps because to avoid deformation of the bullet base and still provide good accuracy. I saw no such damage to skirts, even with heavier load than I intend to use. Because this will be primarily a target load for my 1887 Nagant, I have no reason for higher muzzle velocities with this specific bullet.

At highest Blue Dot loading I did start to get leading in forcing cone and just ahead. This leading was localized to one side and the recovered bullets, fired through the leaded bore, showed skirt slightly elongated on one side. Groups steadily grew larger under these conditions.

Niklas
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/14/2007 5:19:30 PM
Message:

Here is one more useful datum for 32H&R Mag case with Blue Dot. It is from Lyman 47th, New Edition, 1992, page 374. The suggested starting load is:
5,0 grains Blue Dot, 95 grain lead alloy (#2), COL 1,260 inches, 810 fps, 11.100 psi.

With the same assumptions about powder burn as used above but with a slightly different powder space ratio of 1,0/0,80 inches = 1.25, the scoping chamber pressure for 5,0 grains Blue Dot in my load is 8.880 psi. I can say from other informations that 5,0 grains of Blue Dot is too much for the 32-20 brass + Speer 98 grain HBWC, at least for large volume, no-concerns use in 1887 Swedish Nagant. I flatly do not recommend this load.

SO, from two sets of published 32 H&R Mag data for target loads, one can arrive at a reasonable pressure load for the combination of 32-20 case and Speer HBWC, with 3,7 grains of Blue Dot being too low and 5,0 grains being uncomfortably high.

Here is another datum for 32 H&R Mag, this one from Hodgdon Powder Co. webbsite, that could be another good starter load for 7,5 Nagant.
90 GR. Hornady Lead WC 0,314 diameter, 3,0 grains Universal, OAL 1.350, 819 fps, 8,400 CUP.

Short of getting actual pieziometric presssure data for the use of 32-20 cases and deeply seated Speer HBWC bullets with Blue Dot, 2400, etc. slower burn rate powders, these two examples demonstrate how one can go about greatly increasingly the odds of arriving at safe loads. Note also that these two sets of chamber pressure data with Blue Dot in 32 H&R Mag were taken with unvented P&V test barrels. It is widely expected that actual chamber pressures in a revolver will be somewhat less, at least once the longish wadcutter bullets have cleared the gap.

One can make more careful measurements of available powder volume, but, this can quickly become a matter of diminishing value. After all, these are scoping calculations that ignore other factors. Obviously, this type of calculation is better the fewer differences there are between the two cartridges.

I only wish I had suitable lower pressure data for 32-20 WCF, using the Speer HBWC bullet, instead of the usual 12.000 psi or higher loading data. Perhaps this is the direct, empirical approach to getting direct pressure data for this load. If there should be enough interest, perhaps we could find someone with P&V test gun and a 32-20 barrel to fit it.

Later this summer I hope to chrono the loads I will be using.

Niklas
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 05/14/2007 11:26:31 PM
Message:

From "The Norma Gunbugs Guide" published in 1961, the Norma factory load for the 7.5 Nagant (barrel length = 4.5"):

Index #592; 104 gr. bullet; .327 dia.; OAL of cartridge - 1.28
"Recom. max. load": Norma powder = R-1; 2.8 gr.; 722 Ft/sec; PSI = 15,000 or 1,021 atom.

Reply author: Dutchman
Replied on: 05/15/2007 04:01:17 AM
Message:

Gonna take me a couple days to get back to this.. but I will.

Good info from Steve!


Dutchman
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/15/2007 10:03:54 AM
Message:

Thanks Steve!!

With that information I won't have to be quite so conservative in my choice of loads. At 1,02 Kbars I can use a lot of the 32-20 loading data that have chamber pressure data. That is what I was hoping to be able to do but, could not find any pressure data for 7,5 Nagant nitro loads.

At a large fraction of 1,0 Kbar one can work up some loads that sneek into 32-20 territory, using slower powders, including Hodgdon's data for 777 FFg 32-20 loads. That would make the 7,5 Nagant an even more useful cartridge.

Note that Norma R-1 is commonly listed on burn rate charts as the fastest burning powder made. With much slower burning powders, much higher muzzle velocities are easy. With some powders and bullets, 1.000 fps might be attainable at under 1,0 Kbar.

Still, for target loads, I will be staying well below 10.0000 psi. I want to enjoy my 1887 Nagant, not wear it out with near max loads.

Niklas
Reply author: sbhva
Replied on: 05/15/2007 2:01:54 PM
Message:

Ok, now this has me thinking: why would Norma use the fastest burn rate powder? Could the answer be that you are not really working with a 4.5" barrel here? The Swedish Nagant does not have the gas seal feature of other Nagants and there is quite a gap between the cylinder and the barrel. Do you need to burn the powder quickly so the gas will not just blow out the sides as the bullet travels from the cylinder into the barrel?

I have one of these pistols that has been sleeved to .22 and have never shot it. A friend of mine also had a sleeved one and he said it was so loud that it was unpleasant to shoot. He used it for one range session and then sold it. I believe the gap may be to blame.
Reply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 05/15/2007 2:47:48 PM
Message:

I forgot - I have several boxes of 20th century manufacture 7.5 ammo. Swedish military and German commercial, all smokeless loads. I think out of curiosity's sake I'll break down a couple and see what I find.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/15/2007 3:21:38 PM
Message:

SBHVA,

It is common for original BP military revolvers to have "wide" gaps between cylinder face and end of barrel. "Common knowledge" says that reduces cylinder binding by BP fouling on front of cylinder. Such guns also usually have a fair amount of "end play", that is, movement to and fro of the cylinder, also said to enhance reliable function in battle with BP ammo. My 1887 has both.

Loose is good for a BP battle revolver.

Gap on my 1887 is about 0,020 inch, with cylinder totally back against frame (no cartridge case in chamber). It may well be "loud", I would not know because of the hearing protection I routinely wear. I also ONLY shoot outside.

I can say that the one of my long used BP revolvers that seems almost totally immune to BP powder fouling has both large gap and end play. It also has the loosest cylinder pin I have ever seen.

FYI, the "crud bushing" on front of cylinder on my 1887 is the longest I have ever seen. About 2X longer than on Colts and shaped to direct the crud-bearing gasses away from the frame.

Only practical performance effect I have seen of wider gap on ballistics is reduction of muzzle velocity. Still, I have never had a problem developing adequate power at safe chamber pressures, always using slower burning powders and heavier bullets.

Niklas

Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/15/2007 8:54:57 PM
Message:

For a good comparison of chamber pressures and muzzle velocities for 32-20 loads, go to http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp and enter "pistol", "All" for bullets and powders, and 32-20.

The cylinder on my 1887 will take loads about 1,50 inches long. With a bit deeper seating, most of the starting loads listed here will be under the 15.000 psi of the Norma 7,5 Nagant load.

Niklas
Reply author: kriggevaer
Replied on: 05/15/2007 9:13:57 PM
Message:

Niklas,

I'll scan the m/87 pages from my copy of "Undervisning för Infanteristen", 1907. I'll email them through your address in your profile.
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 05/16/2007 10:12:31 AM
Message:

Takk ska du ha Kriggevær!

That title also gives me something to start inqueries in Swedish used books net.

Niklas
Reply author: daniel phillips
Replied on: 05/27/2007 9:10:12 PM
Message:

I know almost nothing about this type of gun but would be interested to know if a 1904 be considered rare? do in part to low production? and are these like the french ones? i dont think, or remember if it had the gas sealing fetures of the russian? and maybe of interest to some, i had one of the,i think first naganats
, a french nagant commer. 1890's? one that i sold about 7 years ago,low 3 digit number with william glassers name on the manufacters address
? about 95% outside(it had orginal finish, i was told it was a war war one bring back )&(dark blue like a colt, high polish) inside better than out, no one knew cal. so family never shot it.
for $400.00 plus shipping /insurance,sight unseen by mr.simson of simsons /along with a early mauser 60% unit marked pre war 1 long cannon barrel revolver $500.00 from same estate sale that i was handeling for the family, same bring back time.<><dp
Reply author: Pettson
Replied on: 06/15/2007 12:15:17 PM
Message:

Here are some loading data from the latest (2006) edition of the norwegian "Ladeboken". Only Vihtavuori and BP data, but can perhaps give you some pointers anyway.

I also need to challenge D's statement about Swede's shooting .32 S&WL in these guns. Don't know where you got that information, but those guys I do know that are serious about it and shoot their Nagants on a regular basis won't use that cartridge due to inferior accuracy. What is used is either "modern" Norma or Fiocchi factory loads, or handloads based on the .32-20 case.

For those that read norwegian there are also some comments on that below.

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Pettson
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 07/02/2007 07:11:11 AM
Message:

Thanks Pettson!

When I return home from Sweden I buy a chronograph and will have some more velocity data to add, for Blue Dot, 2400 and Hodgdon 777 FFg. The Blue Dot and 777 have given quite good groups and did not get far with 2400 before having to leave. With Blue Dot and 777 I suspect I have velocities in the 800-900 fps range for what seem to be quite reasonable pressure loads (cases fall out of 5 of 6 chambers - one chamber has some problem I have not yet identified).

Niklas

Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 07/13/2007 8:44:29 PM
Message:

Got out to do some preliminary velocity measurements on loads I have been developing, conservatively based on various closely related loading data published by generally reliable sources, principally Hodgdon's data for 32-20. Only got one set of worthwhile to post data today. The load is 8,0 grains by weight of Hodgdon 777 FFG (10,9 grains by BP volume equivalent), 122 grain X 0,315 bullet cast 60 parts Pb to 1 part Sn and lubed with Alox Javalina, 0,322 X 0,060 vegatible fiber wad under bullet (hopefully to provide good gas seal with the undersized bullet)), CCI small pistol primer, 38,3 mm OAL, in Starline 32-20 cases (not fireformed to fit chambers or shortened).

Average velocity for 6 shots at five feet from front screen of chronograph is 603 fps with difference between extremes of 100 fps. This average is close to the very similar load given in the above posted data (by Pettson) from Norske ladeboken for 10.0 grains of Swiss fffg and 113 grain bullet.

I could not recover any of the bullets, so, do not know if they expanded to the 0,321 of the Speer soft lead, hollow base wad cutter bullets I have been using. Will slowly increase the amount of powder to see if the extreme spread in velocities decreases. At the moment, I do not know if the 100 fps extreme spread is because of too light load or variable gas sealing. The use of unfireformed cases may be a factor too.

This load gave 2,0-2,5 inch 5 shot groups at about 20 meters.

Niklas
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 07/23/2007 10:52:46 AM
Message:

Did further velocity measurements on the 777 FFg/122 grain bullet load given in my immediately previous post. At 9,0 grains 777 FFg by weight the velocity at 10 feet from muzzle was 654 fps and extreme spread was 49 fps. At 9,5 grains by weight the result was 690 fps and 20 fps. Like the way ES is decreasing, hope this is not just accidental, given only 5-6 shots each test. This latter load was in fireformed cases, all previous loads were in unmodified 32-20 cases. May go to 10,0 grains, with a projected velocity of about 725 fps. At 11,0 grains the projected velocity is about 800 fps, but, I may not go that far because the 9,0 and 9,5 grain loads shoot so well.

These velocities and load weights are still well below what Hodgdon gives for 32-20 with 118 grain bullets. Expected chamber pressures are well below 10.000 CUP. Group sizes have been around 2-2,5 inches at 25 paces and about 5,0 inches at 50 paces.

I have also been increasing the weights of 2400 powder under Speer 98 grain HBWC bullets. So far, I am only up to 600 fps, with ES of 25. Hope to be able to go to 750-800 fps, with cases still dropping from clean chambers. Speer does not recommend pushing this soft, HB bullet faster than 800 fps. This load is much less powerful than the final Blue Dot load I arrived at with this bullet before getting a chronograph. Cases still drop from clean chambers but, there remains incompletely burned 2400 powder in the cases.

DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN 7,5 NAGANT CASES!!!
Again, these 2400 loads are well above what I can find in the published data for 7,5 Nagant cases and heeled bullets, but, well below what is given for 32-20, as one would expect because the only difference between these loads and normal 32-20 loads is the depth of seating for the bullet. The bullets are seated so that they are just below the end of the chamber. These Speer HBWC target bullets do give smaller groups than the 122 grain 32-20 bullets, in keeping with the expected performance of target bullets.
DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN 7,5 NAGANT CASES!!!

Neither bullet has given any leading with either powder. The revolver has performed very well. I did have the trigger and hammer pulls lightened, resulting in a 4lb, 4oz single action letoff (down from 11+!!) and a very smooth, easy double action. This is easily the revolver I can point shoot most accurately in double action.

Niklas
Reply author: NiklasP
Replied on: 08/09/2007 11:35:07 PM
Message:

Finally got up to about 800 fps with 2400 and the Speer HBWC. Never did get a load that did not have erratic velocities and serious blowback. SO, have rejected 2400 with this undersized bullet.

Will now go back to test shooting with Blue Dot and the Speer HBWC.

I did try 10,0 grains 777 FFg by weight and only got a 6 fps increase in average velocity over the 9,5 grain loading with the same bullet and wad as noted in previous posts. Obviously, with these under sized bullets, the additional 0,5 grains of powder was not getting used.

Both the 9,5 and 10,0 grain by weight 777 FFg loads shoot quite nice groups, centered just above POA. Will be doing careful accuracy and POI testing with the 9,5 grain load. This will be my load for an upcoming annual match. Hoping to get close to 2,0 inch groups for full cylinder at 25 meters -- close but not there yet.

My other gun for the match will be a Carl Gustaf RB in 8X58RD with 210 grain GC 0,324 bullets (apparently from a LBT mould) over enough Green Dot to stop the bullets from tumbling, giving a velocity of 1350 fps at 10 feet. Getting 3-4 inch groups at 150 paces. The match has an upper limit on velocity of 1400 fps.

Same bullets over 42 grains Reloader 22 (nearly identical in performance to Norma MRP) give about 1750 fps. Only shot this load enough to know that it seems to be a good load.

Niklas
 

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Further 1887 revolver reloading data

Beautiful pics! How did you manage to import the pictures into the text this way?

Here are some reloading data from Olav from Norway, but he did not specify whether they were for the Swedish or Norwegian Nagant revolver. Will hardly make a difference I guess:

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olav
Gunboards Member
Norway
42 Posts
Posted - 05/16/2005 : 11:39:46 AM
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I use 32-20 cases trimmed back .895 inch and a heel bullet cast from a N.E.I mould, the bores of those revolvers have variations and should be slugged. For loads I use 2grains Bulleye or 11,5 grains FFFg.
Olav
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olav heidenstrøm

melchar
Gunboards Member
USA
47 Posts
Posted - 05/20/2005 : 08:13:40 AM
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Would you happen to have the part number of your NEI mould? Is it the
#93B intended for .310 Cadet?

Thanks,
K.


olav
Gunboards Member
Norway
42 Posts
Posted - 05/20/2005 : 12:01:33 PM
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No, I got it custom made, as I used to be a custom bullet maker with both cast and swaged bullets.But my friend have a heel base mould for Nagant, I will ask him.
Olav

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olav heidenstrøm
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Beautiful pics! How did you manage to import the pictures into the text this way?
Not sure. I merely copied the whole threads from the old-old forum, in "printer friendly" mode, and they turn out like that.
I'm using Firefox rather than IE, don't know if that has anything to do with it.

But... The pictures are still stored at the old upload server thingy, so the pictures need to be saved and the posts edited to get it right I guess...

Pettson
 
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