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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a set of secondary recoil springs for my Hakim and I noticed they are 2 different lengths. One is slightly longer than the other, not much bu enough to notice they're different. The problem is, I don't know which is the 'front' and which is the 'rear' spring. Does anyone know??
 

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IIRC the recoils springs on the Hakim are different in diameter and length and are assembled with one spring nested inside the other.
The smaller diameter spring is shorter than the larger diameter.
Both springs are placed over the rod that protrudes from the bolt carrier cover.
It's been a while since I've disassembled an Hakim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
There's actually 3 recoil springs. There's the large, long one which is the primary and then 2 secondary springs which connect with a rod in the middle and that all nests inside the primary.

On the diagrams and parts lists, the secondary springs are labeled as "front" and "rear" and are shown mounted in that orientation in the bolt carrier, and they each have their own part numbers. They look nearly identical except one has a few more loops which makes it slightly longer. So there must be some difference for them to be differentiated like that.
 

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It makes no difference how you place them. Since there are two springs, they had to label them as somthing. Front and rear works just as good a spring 1 and spring 2. One of your springs are just worn more than the other - or was shortened long ago for some reason.
TOM
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I don't think so. The springs I got are right from Numrich and they are 2 different lengths and part numbers. I don't know why Numrich would bother differentiating if they were the same spring. Or why they'd shorten one. There must be a reason why the manufacturer designated them and apparently made them differently.

The only thing I've found so far by trying them in both positions is that the shorter spring allows the connecting rod (which is actually a tube) to just connect to the guide rod in the back of the bolt carrier whereas the longer one doesn't. This makes me think the shorter one is the rear spring so that the springs don't get kinked when the tube is trying to mount that guide rod during assembly.
 

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I’ll stick to my original assessment. I just checked 3 of my Hakims, and all had front and rear springs that were essentially the same length (within 1/16” of each other). I don’t know if the original design called for different length springs or not, but it apparently doesn’t matter, as I have no issues with any of mine that can be traced back to a recoil spring. Even the front / rear spring on my Ljungmans are the same length. Numrich may not even know the difference either. I have seen several parts listed in their book that were the same identical part that was used on several different rifles (especially Marlin and Remington .22’s) but they assign them different part numbers (and often different prices…)

TOM
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Tom, that's interesting. I changed mine out (both primary & secondary) because my Hakim was beating the hell out of my brass (dented rim and body) and flinging it a couple of dozen feet in front of me even with the gas valve turned to its lowest (7o'clock) setting. Ammo didn't make a difference, I tried it with 51 persian, 52 and 55 yugo, M75 yugo. Figured that the springs must be old since that's the only other part of that equation.

Got the new springs from Numrich and the first thing I noticed was how much longer they were than the ones in the gun. Thought maybe someone had put rasheed springs in it at some point before I got it. But even with the new springs in it, it still beats the brass and flings it way out front. I want to use boxer brass so I don't want the brass beat all useless by the gun. Not sure at this point what could tame it more.

Could you do me a favor and tell me the length of your primary and secondary springs? If you could tell me loops per inch too that'd be great. I want to see which set is the right length and go from there.
 

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The large spring is approximately 9 ½ inches long with around 8-9 coils per inch (not measuring the ends). The small secondary springs are approximately 4 1/8 – 4 ¼ long with 11-12 coils per inch (not measuring the ends). When inserted into the larger spring, the smaller spring assembly is approximately 1 inch to 1 1/8 inch shorter than the larger spring. My springs are most likley worn a little also, so factory-new springs may be longer.

The Hakim is a natural beast on brass due to its design. Even on their lowest gas setting, they often sling brass 15-20 feet. To protect the brass, go buy a ¼ inch diameter vacuum or fuel hose, cut it lengthwise, and slip it over the shell deflector. That will greatly limit the dents in the brass.
TOM
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks, gonna check my springs out to see how they match up.

I've got a little padding on the deflector but that's not the real problem, its the ejector. It deforms the rims enough that they won't chamber properly anymore :-( The case dent will come out the next time I fire it but the rim damage is not so easily solved.
 

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Ejector or extractor? I've seen ejectors put fairly deep divits in the rim, but never bad enough to cause chambering issues. I have had the extractor rip the rims off, but with the gas setting on the lowest gas setting (as you say it is) it's usually caused by a dirty/pitted chamber, or using ammo with a slow-burning powder (such as Turk).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Its the ejector for sure. Puts a nasty dent in the rim that deforms it enough that I can't close the bolt on it in my VZ24. Extraction has been no problem at all, other than when I fully closed the gas valve to confirm it was functioning as expected. Had to coax the shell out after that. I knew about the problems with Turk ammo and stayed away from that. Been using just persian and mostly yugo ammo which should be fine powder-wise.
 

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Well, if it’s hitting the ejector that hard on the lowest gas setting, I can think of three things that could help – but first (if you haven’t already done so) verify that the valve is, in fact, in the lowest setting by removing the handguard and visually verifying that the blade (or wing) on the valve washer is engaged in the first notch. You indicated that your valve is pointing to the 7:00 position, but most Hakims have their lowest setting at 6:00 (or even 5:30) – but there are some variances in the positioning due to manufacturing variances, so 7:00 is not out of the realm of possibilities. As a reminder, there are 7 gas adjusting positions, and the one gas cut-off position.

If you are in fact at the lowest gas setting, here are a few suggestions to help soften the blow to the brass. My first suggestion would be to try and find some stiffer springs (duh! Right…) If the bolt is slamming back that far, I doubt a spring that is a few pounds stiffer would cause any short-cycling. Unfortunately, I’m not sure where to find stiffer spring other than those sold as replacements – Just looking at one of my FN-49’s main recoil spring, it looks like it would be a perfect candidate, as it is longer, and appears to be made out of a gauge thicker wire stock (but is the same diameter). But, I’m not sure if this FN has a stock or a replacement spring, as it is a Century rebuild – but just a thought. The heavy Ljungman springs would be perfect if they weren’t cut in two sections (like the inner spring on the Hakim).
Second, you can verify that the ejector is hitting the brass squarely. If the brass hits it at even a slight angle, it’s going to dig in more than if it hits it squarely. Also, make sure the surface that hits the brass has a flat edge, and not sharp/broken. I know the top of the ejector is kind of sharp, but I’m mainly concerned about the front surface that the brass hits. Also, make sure it doesn’t look broken or modified. The brass only hits the ejector about 1/16”, which you cam probably see from brass residue on the tip.
One last thing to try. On several Hakims, you can adjust the gas valve to a position BEFORE the 6:00 position. Actually, you can do it on all Hakims, but you might have to remove the handguard and pry up the wings on the valve washer a little, as they tend to get hung up on the gas block. Further gas restriction can be obtained by doing this, even though there is no ‘notch’ for the wing to snap into. I know that some people used to file a few extra notches in the gas block so they could fire Turk ammo. I don’t recommend you file extra notches in you block for ‘collectors’ reasons, but placing the valve at the 5:00 (guesstimate) is worth a shot, and will not hurt your Hakim – the valve just might not stay in that position, and migrate to the 6:00 position when fired due to it not being secured in a notch – but I doubt it will move any – especially if only a few mags are fired. If you want, you can leave the handguard off to keep an eye on it (hot barrel – just a warning)

P.S. You mention that you reload and shoot Persian and Yugo – are you reloading Berdan Persian or Yugo?? If so, awesome (I know some people do it). If your not reloading Persian/Yugo, what are you shooting and reloading??

TOM
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I did indeed visually verify the valve after my first range trip. However, I think you're thinking the other way around for the highest vs lowest. With the arrow pointed straight back at the shooter, the valve is wide open. Turning it clockwise there's 7 clicks which brings you to about 7o'clock or so and then the 8th position turns all the way to about 9o'clock or so and closes the valve completely. So I'm starting from the lowest setting. And I'd already stripped and cleaned everything including the gas valve and made sure it was good and tight when I reassembled. I am thinking of trying the valve in a position more closed than the 7o'clock setting but before the fully closed. That was going to be my next step. I wonder too if it will migrate back to more fully open though.

I didn't think about checking the ejector itself for flat edge. I'll be doing that next since I need to pull out the springs to measure them against your info. My first thought was it needed stronger recoil springs which is why I got the set from Numrich to try. It helped a bit, but not enough. Maybe I'll see if I can track down an FN-49 spring too.

As for reloading, no I'm not reloading the berdan brass. What I do is take once fired boxer brass and reprime it then pull the corrosive persian/yugo ammo on a collet puller, dump the powder in the new case, and reseat to the same depth with the bullet still in the collet. Then just put a slight crimp into the cannelure with a lee factory crimp die. That way I don't have to worry about corrosive or dud primers.
 

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Sorry, had a brain fart, You are correct!! The lowest gas setting is approximately 7:00 – 7:30. Sorry about the confusion there.. So, working in reverse of what I said before, try firing a few rounds with the valve clockwise PAST the lowest setting—so that it points to about 8:00.
Again, sorry about the wrong direction about the gas valve.

I’m following you on the re-loading now. Here’s a question from a re-loading newbie; could empting the powder out of one round, and dumping it into different brass that has thicker walls (creating a smaller volume) cause an overpressure as compared to the original round? Just wondering if the volume of the cases are the same – or does it even matter.

TOM
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yeah that's what I'm planning to try, around 8o'clock or maybe even more to find a happy point.

I don't think in a rifle round like this that the thickness could be enough to cause an overpressure problem. And if anything I'm going from thicker walled military brass to thinner commercial (PPU) brass. I think the difference would be negligible really in anything other than small pistol rounds. I did an experiment recently in my Garand with some commercial match grade bullets and the same powder charge in 4 HXP once fired and 4 current commercial once fired brass and the performance was virtually identical. The 30-06 and 8mm are almost identical cases (you can make 8mm out of 30-06 cases in fact) so to me that pretty much removes any concern about that situation. I did find that the seated depth of the bullet made a vast difference though when the bullet was seated only 7/100ths of an inch deeper, so I'd be more concerned about seating to the same depth than case wall thickness. Luckily these bullets all have cannelure on them so you know exactly where to seat them to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
A bit of an update. Checked the springs and the originals seem to match up to your specs. The Numrich primary is about 1/2" longer so, the others only fractionally longer. So that's fine.

Also checked out the ejector closely, its good and flat on the face and not broken or messed with. I was checking it out in the gun since my trigger group is staked with the original screws and I'm not going to remove them unless I absolutely have to. But I decided to look at the schematic to see how its attached, etc. and noticed something interesting.

There's a pin which holds it and also allows it to pivot slightly against an ejector spring when struck during recoil. I had no idea there was a spring in there since it felt like a solid post before. I got a steel punch and some CLP and worked it quite a bit while getting the CLP down in there to hopefully loosen up that spring. Seems to move pretty well now so I'm curious to see what difference that makes on the brass. Hopefully it'll soften the rim abuse at the lowest gas setting.

Hope to try it Saturday and find out.
 

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Yep, the ejector is hinged, but I have never heard of one being sized or frozen. But, if they get bent a little, the brass won’t hit it squarely, which is why I wanted you to check it. It was a long shot for it to be bad, but it was worth a shot---Yours sounds like it’s OK though.

Are your screws staked, or do they just have the original wire keepers on them?? Either way, I agree. Leave them alone unless you have to remove them. The wire keepers can be frustrating to get back on with out damaging them.
TOM
 
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