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Gun show laugh


Topic:



Topic author: mag
Subject: Gun show laugh
Posted on: 11/14/2004 5:41:04 PM
Message:
I saw a nice clean Type-I on a table. The dealer told me ALL about it. It was made by Norinco, a exact copy of the 1905 Mauser, It shoots well, I asked what ammo he shot in it and he said " standard Mauser ammo " . I asked him about the scrubbed area on the buttstock and he told me how he had to "clean" off some painted markings that were there. mag

Replies:

Reply author: car99
Replied on: 11/14/2004 10:01:48 PM
Message:
It's one of those cases where you're not sure if you should laugh or cry. Did the guy want an arm & leg for it too?

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/14/2004 10:36:15 PM
Message:
There's never a lack of "experts" at a gunshow. It's a shame when the things we collect fall into such hands.


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/14/2004 11:26:16 PM
Message:
Late Roy Cooper (B'ham, AL) had a display containing a "Knee Mortar." His tble was next to mine so I overheard following conversation as a man and woman strolled by. (Man) "Oh look honey, there's a knee mortar. It's called that because it was invented by a Colonel Knee."

Reply author: mag
Replied on: 11/15/2004 12:49:48 AM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by car99

It's one of those cases where you're not sure if you should laugh or cry. Did the guy want an arm & leg for it too?
Yes he did, about twice what it was worth. It amazes me on how they can put a price on a gun that they do not even know what it is! I offered a reasonable price but he said he had looked it up?? and that was what they were worth. mag

Reply author: CALIBER50
Replied on: 11/15/2004 01:40:22 AM
Message:


quote: Originally posted by Eloldehombre1

Late Roy Cooper (B'ham, AL) had a display containing a "Knee Mortar." His tble was next to mine so I overheard following conversation as a man and woman strolled by. (Man) "Oh look honey, there's a knee mortar. It's called that because it was invented by a Colonel Knee."
What idiots! Everyone into Jap stuff knows it was Major Knee!


Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 11/15/2004 8:26:11 PM
Message:
Ok! Here is my gun show laugh.

Several of us were bored at a slow show in Anchorage. Put a 4" Luger, shoulder stock, Colt AR15 scope, Springfield trapdoor spike bayonet (fit right around the front sight!) together and my buddy Joe Koss made up a sign using German-like caligraphy stating that it was a "special strom trooper weapon". An old guy tourist visiting Anchorage with his wife in tow strolled by. He was so excited. His Dad had brought one back from WWI. It was special trench clearing weapon!! It was wonderful to see one again.

He was sooooo serious and his wife was so impressed, we did not have the heart to tell him the truth. After he was several tables away of course we all cracked up. It made the whole show for us!

Frank Allan


Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 11/15/2004 9:18:51 PM
Message:
Speaking of knee mortars and gun shows,one in New Orleans a few years ago was wild.I saw 2 knee mortars,one so-so and one minty,with no de-mil holes or paperwork,for sale reasonably.I tried to explain,but nobody cared.I had one seller offer his for me for $300 if I promised not to squeal.I wasn't anyway,but I didn't need the hassel of takeing it home either. Scott

Reply author: swilson010
Replied on: 11/16/2004 10:28:06 PM
Message:
I've seen a few "experts" at the only local gun show I go to. One tried to sell me an extremely dented up and rusted type 30 bayonet, which had the hook bent off to the side and flattened, missing giant pieces of the wood grips, had not a trace of bluing left, had the muzzle ring bashed in as far as it could go, and was permanantly stuck inside it's scabbard which was painted neon yellow on one side and neon pink on the other... all for 75 dollars, I kid you not. He said it was rare, and I calmly walked trying very hard not to asphyxiate him with that horrid neon concoction sitting on the table.

Reply author: Hoss1951
Replied on: 11/17/2004 08:54:07 AM
Message:
Mag, I thought of you last night. I had read this thread a day or so ago. We were standing around a little gun shop here in town. I had a T-99 that has been sporterized( A quite nice looking job) It has a 30-06 springfield barrel on it. One of the fellows asked why the barrel was changed? He used to have one he shot 30-06 in all the time. I asked if it was on the korean conversion rifles and he said NO. It was a 7.7 he just shot 06 shells in it. I have several 7.7 T-99 and not a single one of them will chamber an 06 round. The man he got the gun from also shot 06 shells in it. He says everybody knows 06 shells will work in a 7.7. Not mine. I was standing there looking at the floor thinking, I wish Mag was here to help me !!

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/17/2004 10:02:50 AM
Message:
This is too good not to share. Story comes from a name that 99.9% of Arisaka collectors would recognize. Two (or more) friends constructed a 'gag' rifle, think it may have had a bipod made from T-44 b'nets, memory fuzzy on the construction of the rifle.

One friend, rifle owner, died, widow asked other one to sell rifle, It was put on tale at OGCA show for $400, price not on rifle. All this years ago. One of the guys that hit that show running when doors opened skidded to a stop in front of the made-up rifle. Examined it and asked how much. "Four" replied the seller. "Would you take three?" "Yeah, I will." Buyer counted out THIRTY, ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR BILLS, picked up the rifle and hurried off! This is suppose to be a true story.

Reply author: Douglas I. Kerley
Replied on: 11/17/2004 3:01:06 PM
Message:
HI; Just as I was switching from German to Japanese (8 years ago) and I saw this T99 Carbine (!?) at the old Tacoma, WA show. Short Ladder sight (Series 7), 19 inch barrel, no series, Mum and matched, Barrel band moved back and expertly refinished so it fooled me. If I had had the money I would of bought it. But luckly I had spent the couple of bucks on the Honeycutt book and knew better especially after dealing with the fake German stuff for decades. Doug

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/17/2004 4:17:10 PM
Message:
It went to CA so it's very possible it is the one you saw, buyer finally realized it was a phoney and dumped it. Doubt that he ever learned he paid $2700 more than the asking price.[

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 11/18/2004 01:38:42 AM
Message:
Here's one that puzzles me. A dealer buddy next door,expert on 3rd Reich stuff,sees a t-99(sniper) at a show in Birmingham AL a couple years ago.It sets for a day and the last hour the price drops to $1100.I've told him before what they go for,so he sees an opportunity.The guy sells it to him with a straight face.When I see it,I nearly fainted.It was a 10th series,forend missing,front band removed.The mum was BADLY double struck,over a lump of lead(had been ground),then all painted gloss black.The scope was a HUGE Japanese artillery type,with a grid retical.The mount looked poorly sand cast and had a quick disconnect,also MUMED.And serialized to the rifle.And had the scope's Kanji marked bag cover tied to it.What a total pile of BS! He was told it was a last-ditch sniper.He sat on it in his shop for a year and sold it for $500 as a fake.Anybody up in the north end of Bama know the culprit who made this joker? I heard a big collector up there made several as a show gag. Hmmmmm...

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 11/18/2004 10:12:46 AM
Message:
I heard he bought it in Tulsa, after being told it was wrong. I don't believe it came out of Alabama, maybe Tennessee faker. Trey

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 11/18/2004 12:47:03 PM
Message:
Nope,"it"came from B'ham,I was supposed to set up w/him that weekend.I can't believe with the know-it-alls at that show that nobody grabbed his arm and gave him the low-down.He said he was unfettered by anybody after the sale,but it was near closeing time also.Probably another guy,maybe in Tulsa got yanked somewhere down the line though.He sold it for $500 as a parts gun,he figured the optics were worth something by themselves.Who knows where it is now.. Scott


Reply author: k98k792
Replied on: 11/19/2004 6:31:25 PM
Message:
ROFLMAO! Colonel Knee!

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/20/2004 10:45:33 AM
Message:
The fake sniper was sold in Tulsa, I just missed examining it, buyer walked away from the table with rifle as I walked up. As I understand it it went to a person in Montgomery who had it a t a M'gomery show and was told it was a fake.

I go to most Birtmingham show (Sgt-at-arms) but have missed the last two fall shows because of a conflict with Tulsa. Trey and George Taylor, both advanced Arisaka collector, are ALWAYS at every B'ham show. George has not missed one in 30 years. I always check with them when I return to see what was offered. If a fake sniper sat on the table until the 11th hour one of these "Gentlemen" (don't get a big-head,Trey) would have noted it and reported it to show officials and I would have heard about it the following Monday when I returned.

It was at a Montgomery show, Trey examined it and took photos which I beleive were published in BANZAI. Fellow from Nashville TN area, initials reported to be R. A., is 'crafting' these fakes, he also is making the .30-06 (U. S. Cal 30) Korean Conversions and it is reported that at a past MAX show he had T-14s with a mum stamped on the frame. (Harry Derby, author of "Hand Cannons of Imperial Japan" and co-author of new pistol book with Jim Brown, ofered to buy his mum stamp!) There were two of the fake sniper which appeared to be his work sold at the last SOS show (Louisville, KY, Feb.) Hve been told that he mixes sawdust with some material and filles cracks between metal and wood to 'age' his creations.

I am certain the rifle did not sit on the table for two days at B'ham. Possibly it brought in late Sunday PM. Wonder why your buddy who is a dealer paid big bucks for it when a copy of "Military Rifles of Japan" is $42 and is a tax deduction for a dealer??

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/20/2004 11:40:56 AM
Message:
Unable to review, correct last message for "key-boarding" mistakes so I reread it and PW-44s post containing the "Know-it-all AL collector" (or whatever) statement and would like to comment on the latter. Counting myself, there are three advanced collectors that regularly attend the Birmingham, AL show, Trey and George are the other two. Blevins seldom attends and while there may be others, they don't immediately come to mind.

As far as I am aware, there are no "Know-it-all" Japanese militaria collectors in Alabama. We are lucky to have one "Know-it-most" Arisaka collector, Trey Stancil. Trey occupies that position because he VOLUNTEERED to 'computerize' all the data reported on the Type 99 Arisaka rifle. He has countless hours in this project and an inch or two thick printout on the different series (No it is not available to the general public/collector at this time. As I understand it it will be a supplement to the new 99 book when published). I once knew something about T-99s, but as the old Indian in "The Outlaw Jose Wales" said about his Indian knowledge, "I forgot."

I was with George Taylor yesterday in his mahine shop while he 'destroyed' three knee mortar barrels for me. George and I spoke on how much more there is to learn about ever facet of Japanese militaria and I know Trey feels the same.

Purposely, or by accident. Pacific War 44, your branding Alabama collectors as "Know-it-alls" was an insult. I think an apology is due!

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/20/2004 7:38:26 PM
Message:
there was a something at a show in wisconsin 15 odd yrs back ..I didnt have the money or Id have bought it..since I havent saw one since or talked to any experts that said they knew what I meant it must have been a fake...was awhile ago so Im not sure if it was a t-38 or a murata carbine..but it had a bipod withfeet and blade bayo ...the guy claimed it was a japanese police carbine...Im told they never made such a creature ....but it sure look good,nice patina and all...looked like a lmg except it was bolt action...

Reply author: HowdyDoody
Replied on: 11/20/2004 10:31:38 PM
Message:
I look for missmatched, been in the barn for 60 years 99s. Even then, you got to watch for those freshly ground mums. Actually, I did see a Japanese sniper at the MVAC show last winter in KC that was stamped 30-06 on top of the chamber. Japs did it in Burma so they could use captured .30 ball ammo. I didn't look at very long.
Jim

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/21/2004 10:37:10 AM
Message:
"Japs did it in Burma so they could use .30.o6 ammo" Bull Crackers. Done in the U. S. so someone could shoot available/affordable ammo. Probably done at "TP Gunshop" in MI or WI. Years ago they had a continuous ad in Shotgun News that they would convert any Japanese rifle to .30-06 for, believe it was $8.00. They stamped the top or side of the chamber ".30-06."

Reply author: Hoss1951
Replied on: 11/21/2004 10:54:50 AM
Message:
Eloldone, Where do people come up with these stories. I think they spend as much time making up the stories as they do bubbafying the rifles.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/21/2004 11:33:25 AM
Message:
I was at the late Great Western Show back in the '80s. Picked up a minty T-K T-99 long rifle from the late Ralph Allen. I was walking the show with my new rifle when I came across a table covered with Japanese rifles that had all seen better days. It looked like Dave's collection!
The seller looked at my rifle & said it had been "refinished". I said "no" - look at the staked screws, the crisp inspection marks etc. He said he didn't care - it just looked "too good" and that it should look more like the ones on his table! That was the moment I realized I was talking to an idiot & shouldn't waste any more time there! Another "gunshow expert".

BTW - that rifle can now be seen in Greg Babich's new book on grenade launchers at the bottom of page 22. Now, there's one I should have kept!


Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/21/2004 12:19:56 PM
Message:
Now I know your "Nagoya nuts" to have given up a rifle that nice! I got mine in exactly the same condition (better) when I got Ralphs collection.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/21/2004 12:25:19 PM
Message:
How kind! Actually, I sold this about 16 years ago when I thought I was getting out of the hobby. I sold off many things that I'll never be able to replace. Too bad Ralph's collection didn't go to a conservative with a camera!

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/21/2004 1:34:35 PM
Message:
The late Don Harper had a 99 long converted to .30-06. He believed it was a Japanese conversion. Sometimes our minds are made up, don't confuse us with the facts.

Don spun a tale about two 99 carbines being left at a pier in Korea as Japanese troops boarded a ship to come home. Think I put this in the 99 book. Rudy Herring ended up with one, Nagoya SN 10, no series mark. I wanted it badly, till I received it and Bobby Blevins and I disassembled it. Mixed bag of parts, with D, A, J, M, T, C. stmped on the bottom of the recever.

Few years aftr Don died, my wife died the same year, Kathleen, Don's widow, and I married two years later. At one point in time she told me the story of how Don and a friend "Joe" made two carbines to fool some know-it-all at a Salt Lake City show. They stamped initials on the receiver bottom which stand for "Don And Joe Made This Carbine." How and why Rudy ended up with it I'll never know, but he thought it was authentic.

Ruth and I helped Cindy, Rudy's widow sell what remained of his collection following his death. She said take anything you want. There was a US "Japanese Mine kit" that would have been a bitch to ship I took that. Carried carbine around for a couple of years, think price lowered to $95, tag on butt said it wa a fake, did not sell. Someone wanted the mine kit for $200, I could deliver so no shipping involved. Told Cindy I'd sell kit, send her the $200 and keep the carbine. Fine with her.

Now have the SN 10 Sub. T-99 carbine, A close examination of the very file marked receiver shows that all but the last two digits of the SN removed, leaving only the one and zero, 10. I also have a mid production 99 carbine with a double stamped, restamped mum, the 99 "Midget Submarine Sniper carbine" with a "restored' ext. adj. scope, the subject of a BANZAI April Fool article,) and will soon have a T-2 sniper carbine.

This will raise the question for some, "Did the Japanese ever make a 99 carbine?" I 'think' not, other than the 200 or so found at Jensen after the war. MRoJ, 5th Ed. shows one, think Bobby and I examined it or one like it, TJK, no SN, fellow in Utah had it. Contained parts from several different arsenals. I've been wrong before and could be wrong on this, but until I see some documentation on 99 carbines I'll continue to believe all have been made at "Red Neck Arsenal." 'My mind is made up until you confuse me with the facts.'

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 11/21/2004 2:01:43 PM
Message:
What became of the 400 or so 12 1/2 inch barreled t-99's found at jinsen? there is a drawing of one in MRoJ 5 but it doesnt say what happend to them after the war.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/21/2004 2:48:44 PM
Message:
There is a photo of one in "Japanese Ordnance Intelligence Korea, Rept. # 12 SMALL ARMS IN KOREA" 10 Dec. 1945. It Ids it as a T-38 carbine, but it is obviously a later war (fixed rear sight) 99.

The 2nd edition of Nakada's book on uniforms (one with poor translations) has a page of rifles in the front, one is the Jinsen 99 carbine.

What happened to the Jinsen carbnes? Was told by someone they had all been destroyed? Some may have made it back to the States. I know of one that has the Jensen "star" and no SN. However 20-years ago a 99 w/o a SN demanded no more $$$ than one with #. This could be a "Red Neck Arsenal" job. I once shot a made-up Jensen carbine at night. Quie a sight, looked like a flame thrower.

Rept 12 can be had for $5.00 pp. BANZAI address.

Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 11/22/2004 12:14:57 AM
Message:
Hey Rob I resent that. You need to edit that post again wherein you suggest I'm not a patriot.


Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 11/22/2004 08:56:07 AM
Message:



quote: Originally posted by Jareth

Hey Rob I resent that. You need to edit that post again wherein you suggest I'm not a patriot.

Done - "Nagoya Nuts"


Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/22/2004 7:32:22 PM
Message:
Every time I see this topic I think of something else. Back in the 80s, the late Roy Cooper, George Taylor, Bobby Blevins and I went to the OGCA show in Cleveland. It was Bobby's first time there, we had told him about all the 99s for sale at past shows, and he said he was going to buy every 99 he saw. When time came to leave Sunday there was a pile of 99s under our table, belonging to all four of us, that reached almost to the table bottom. We sorted out who had bought what and when we finished there was one left over that no one remembered buying! Think Bobby took it home, but we still don't know the buyer.

Same locaion, later show. I bought a T-14 in a holster, did not want the holster, put a $50 price on it (may have been an earlier show, long time since Nambu holsters were $50!). Fellow came by and offered me $45. I said NO. Came by again in an hour or two, same offer, same refusal. That afternoon, I was leaving the table when I spied him 6-7 tables away headed our way. Went back behind the table, quickly changed the holster tag to $55. Fellow came along and offered me $50. "You silver-tounged devil, you just bought yourself a holster."

Fellow at a Pittsburgh area show had a late 99 and b'net for $50. I ended up offering him $49.99, I would not go up that last penny and he would not come down. Learned my lesson on that one, if you want it be prepared to pay the price. Later at another Pittsburgh area show fellow had an early 27th series 99, $50. I offered, $45, he said no. I had learned so shelled out $50. That rifle started me in the 99 research which led to the 1985 T-99 book! Glad I had learned my lesson by then.

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 11/23/2004 01:45:42 AM
Message:
Well Mr.White,if anything I consider my "Alabama Know-it-all" remark as a compliment.The Banzai publication,and what I see as a few more that 3 advanced collectors all originate here at ground zero-AL.A fellow named Cunningham(I believe deceased by now) lived 10 miles from me outside of Mobile,and had one of the nicest(20+)Baby and grand/Papa nambu collections I ever saw.Plus 50 or so NICE swords.And an arisaka or two_Other than the west coast,I believe AL is Nippon militaria mecca.BTW,my friend recollects that it WAS a Montgomery show,but it threw me that a BIG Japanese weapons display
was nearby,so I just assumed one of the advanced collectors would pass the word.I also believe it was firmly HIS fault for the debacle.He now has a copy of MROJ handy,I sold him an earlier edition.I highly respect the Alabama contigient of Japanese military collectors and no harm meant,especially you Doss. Scott

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/23/2004 08:39:37 AM
Message:
Scott, It's now ancient history. Trey took a couple of photos which were printed in BANZAI. For those who are aware of the fakers appearance, his first name is alleged to be "Ron." You might address him as such when you see him, report his reaction. Doss

Reply author: Otter
Replied on: 11/23/2004 11:51:59 PM
Message:
I occassionally post here...Who would be interested/collecting data on Baby Nambus...I have to 95%+ condition, consecutively numbered Baby's in my collection...They're not the TGEs (wish they were!)? TIA

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 11/24/2004 08:49:15 AM
Message:
Dan Larkin, of the "Mike and Dan Larkin Team" (Father and son) might. They have been keeping data on production month/year and SN for 14s and 94s for years. I'll try to dig out Dan's e-mail address and post later.



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