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Discussion Starter #1
Hello!

I posted this same question on Civilian Board regarding civilian marksmanship competitions. While I know there is considerable overlap in readerships, thought it likely useful to post here too. As I understand it, military rifle competitions in Norway and Sweden all required use of military issue ammo, wereas civilian competitions could use any handloaded or commercial ammo they wished. For 1867 Remington rolling blocks this would have been 12,7X42R rimfire ammo.

Does anyone here have or know of information about group sizes shot during the many civilian marksman competitions? I would be especially interested to know what these were with the Remington rolling blocks shooting 12,7X42R, Remington rolling blocks shooting 8X58RD, as well as later matches where 6,5X55 Mausers were used.

Thanks,
Lars
 

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I'll bet that the 12,7mm rolling blocks could easily outshoot the 8x58RD rifles. From my own limited experience and witnessed observation the 12,7mm rifles are much more accurate than the 1889 rolling block. The 1889 is more sensitive to barrel band pressure, upper band pressure and forearm pressure. Take both barrel bands off the 1889 and it shoots much better but it still can't outshoot the 1867 rolling block.

I'll be interested in what data you collect here on this topic.

Dutchman
 

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What were the target face dimensions?

I don't know any historical information about what groups were achieved but you can take information directly from the target dimensions as a good guide. The dimensions of the bullseye, especially the shorter ranges, would relate directly to the best groups achieveable with the rifles/ammo used back then. The basis of this is examples of the 303 Enfield rifle targets shown in the various "scorebooks" I have seen from 1919 up to the late 1960's. The target dimensions evolved as the rifles/ammo got better, with the bullseye getting ever smaller.

With the later use of 6.5 x 55 there was no restriction to use of military ammunition as I understand it. i have examples of the "Jacktmatch' ammunition in my collection with special brass, as well as nickel plated Norma 139 FMJ rounds which were used in the 1950's for international competition
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks swedeM63!

Where would I find dimensions of bullseye of targets used in Swedish and Norwegian rifle matches over past decades, say from 1870s to 1920s?

Thanks,
Niklas
 

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Old target paper

Hi, here we have 2 diffrent target papers from the begining of 1900-late 30 ies. The blue one is the bulls eye 10cm (size of the targt is 55 x 60 cm) and on the white/blue the bulls eye is 30cm (size of the target is 80 x 100 cm).
I have 7-8 more of diffrent target papers and they are not easy to find today.

Nisse
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If you do a search for post by ARILAR you will find a post called Historic Pictures: FSR Shooting 1940. One of those pictures shows a close up of a target with bullet holes in it. You can probably determine some info from that picture.

Maybe someone could capture it amd bring it forward into this thread......

Smokepole50
 

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You also need to know......

... the range each target was used at so you can estimate the "possible" group size to get the bullseye
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Smokepole and Swede!

Aside from a few pictures, such as Arilar found, looks like this is going to be a reconstruction effort using sizes of bullseyes and distances to targets. Maybe I will get lucky and find a few scores giving numbers of X-ring or 10-ring hits, as well as numbers of bullseyes.

Thanks again,
Niklas
 

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Hi NiklasP,
Found this little nice book. Try to get it! Printed 1940.



Showing this targets used at 300 meters. Left target is 30 centimeters diam. for a "6" and right target 20 centimeters diam. for a "10".



Regards,
ARILAR:)
 

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A tough target to see, let alone hit it!

The targets by Arilar seem exactly right for shooting iron sighted rifles at 300 metres. The eye can resolve objects with a dimension of about 1 minute of angle, smaller than this and most people won't even see them. Try putting a 1" patch on a plain target at 100 yards and see if you can spot it, let alone aim at it. 1MOA is 30 mm at 100 metres, 60 at 200, 90 mm at 300 metres.

Normal targets have an aiming mark much bigger than 1MOA (usually 3 to 5MOA) so they can easily be seen with a wide range of vision. I base all this on the 303 commonwealth target dimensions of 1948. Aiming marks were 300 yds is a tin hat 5 MOA along the base, 400yds a circle 3 1/2 MOA, 500 yds a circle nearly 5MOA, 600 yds a circle 4MOA, and so on out to 1000 yards a circle of 3MOA. The bullseyes are roughly 2 to 2 1/2 MOA in each case.

Dimensions on Arilar's targets are in cm, not mm (go research the SI (metric) system, it has dm too). With a maximum dimension of 55 cm (550 mm) the targets shown are just more than six minutes of angle at 300 metres. This size target sits nicely on the standard M96 blade. For those shooting CSD here in Aus the base dimension of our target is about 570 mm.

On Arilar's targets the bullseye (value of 6 or 10) is 200 mm or about 2 1/3 MOA. The second ring is 300 mm or 3 1/3 MOA and so on. As with most target shooting only the top 5% or so would be able to get their rifle shooting to full capability and hit the bull every time. The next 50% would hold inside the 4 ring, the remainder sometimes hold the 4 ring and sometimes the 3 ring. My opinion is that on these targets the best groups would be just less than 200 mm or about 2 MOA, as is still the case for most common target shooting today
 

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Did they use scorebooks in Sweden?

303 shooting in Commonwealth countries routinely used special scorebooks so shooters could plot their groups as they were shooting, making adjustments to the sights to centre the group. These scorebooks turn up from time to time at gunshows or in old booksellers, often partly filled out. The example shows what one shooter achieved at 500 and 600 yards with his SMLE in 1949. Wind was swinging from left to right, and he lost shots in the four ring either side of the bullseye.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks SwedeM63!

What are the cm or inches value of the little bars at bottom of targets? If I know that I can get group sizes.

Thanks ARILAR!
I will look online for book in used book stores in Sweden.


Niklas
 

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The examples of the plotting sheets....

....all use a scale in minutes of angle for 303 shooting since the rifles are fitted with target sights having adjustments for elevation and windage in minutes of angle. The small number is "5" for the fifth minute on the scale in each case. Once you know the dimensions of the target in minutes you can see (if the group is low and left for example) how many minutes to come up and right.

This is different to the european system like the swedish target sights, which use metres for elevation and usually 1cm per 100 m for the windage. If the shots are low in the 4 ring you have to learn from experience how many metres to come up to hit the bullseye.
 
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