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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ground Mums - AGAIN


Topic:



Topic author: Ronin48
Subject: Ground Mums - AGAIN
Posted on: 02/15/2006 11:24:09 AM
Message:

Thought I was through posting for the day, but read another thread where it was mentioned that a rifle with a "lightly struck" (believe lightly used as a modifier?) mum was purchased, later referred to as a "ground: mum.


There is a world of difference, historically speaking, between a 'struck' "X'ed, hammered, etc. mum and a "ground" mum. The first four (and more methods) were done by the Japanese before the rifles were handed over to the UN forces at the war's end. The grinding, my guess 99.9%, was afterwards. Have exaamined ground rifles where the "X" was still visable. Person grinding a pile of rifles did not take the time to see if it had been "X', notched, whatever, he just ground. I've seen at least three Concentric Circle rifles that were ground and one "Six Five Infantry Rifle."

I know this is a minor point, similiar to "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin," but to have a complete, historically representative collection of Japanese rifles of World War II you need at least a couple with defaced mums. And let's quitcalling defaced, but non-ground mums, "ground." I know, pickey, pickey, pickey!


Replies:

Reply author: Francis C. Allan
Replied on: 02/15/2006 11:30:54 AM
Message:
Just to add a little to your discussion; one of the Siamese Type 66 prototypes that must have been in one of the arsenal's reference collections, was also ground even though it clearly never had the Imperial Chrysanthemum.

However, I am afraid that we are stuck with 'ground'. It has just been used for too long by too many people. The best we can do is explain that it really means 'defaced'. The word ground is just to entrenched in our vocabulary.

Frank

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 02/15/2006 11:53:52 AM
Message:
I guess my biggest beef is the term "intact" mum - when the mum is clearly defaced or canceled (as in with rifles shipped of to training). I've lost count of how many rifles I've seen on AA and GB advertised with "intact" mums that are far from it.

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/15/2006 1:14:14 PM
Message:
As an example:"He gave his ex-wife defaced mums for Valentines"....yea,that sounds better than ground or x-ed....Scott

Reply author: Bushido101
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:02:31 PM
Message:
On the subject of ground mums, do you think that a rifle with the mum Xed within the lines of the mum should be considered the same as ground?

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:05:07 PM
Message:
Now it starts, describe the mum, defaced is more desireable than ground! Not that I disagree at all, they are different and deserve recognition.

Mike,
I would consider a concentric circle or tokyo rings or other "cancelation" to be an addition not a defacement of the mum. I do not think the Japanese would have considered their additions to be defacement of the mum, neither should we, just indicates a change in ownership.

The end of war surrender rifles with punch, hammer, chisel, bayonet, file, or other method of damage individually applied defacement, is just that, a defaced mum.

The organized grinding truly results in a ground mum, and likely indicates a surrendered or confiscated from stores rifle.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:19:24 PM
Message:
03 man - I can see what you're saying - I was probably a little sloppy in my post and combined what is really two separate issues.

First there is the defacement, alteration, or grinding of the mum - these were all done for various reasons, and I'd honestly love to see an authoritative write-up on the various forms of "mum alteration" in one spot, but I'm not sure we have the full story even today.

Second, there is the collectible / value issue - my beef is when people advertise a mum as "intact", charge accordingly, and then it's not. A non-altered mum commands a premium in the collectors market, and there are a lot of people either through ignorence or malice who are misrepresenting the firearm in an effort to command a premium price point.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:19:37 PM
Message:
as Ive said many many times in the past...with all defference to Nick the florist..."do ya'll collect guns or flowers?"..for me theres intact mums,cancelled mums and defaced mums no matter wether who struck,beat,chisled,or ground them...sorry Nick I couldnt resist,if you and the kid make it to Alabama memorial day ,Ill keep the rodents from knockin down yer tent to make up fer it.

Reply author: fredh
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:25:36 PM
Message:
If we're going to talk about use of the languages, I really enjoyed the debates on "Type" versus "Model" more than any others!

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:27:28 PM
Message:
For example - here's the mum on a recent acquisition - I paid high for this one because it's a fully matching piece (including the dust cover) - with sling - even though the mum is canceled (actually this is the only "canceled" rather than "ground" rifle I have).

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9210&stc=1&d=1191705942

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Reply author: BIG ED
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:27:31 PM
Message:
My take on it is this.Electicity played a major factor in mum desicration or lack of it. I use the terminology "field surrendered" or ground. If it was "field surrendered" then it could be any form of mum impact damage. If it was ground then this usually means it was run through some form of metal removing tool powered by electricity. Some where done light some they took 1/4" of the receiver away.this usually goes hand in hand with stacking marks on the wood so look close at ground guns and you can usually tell they were stacked. Just my keen observation.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 02/15/2006 5:39:52 PM
Message:
very pretty rifle ,fingolfen, and to me the struck mum,doesnt detract anything...tho Id say struck rather than cancelled .

Reply author: JWMWITZ
Replied on: 02/15/2006 6:50:24 PM
Message:
To me, it's a matter of aesthetics. I prefer to own rifles that have not been through a grinder, X'ed out, or what-not. My only ground (and I mean GROUND!) rifle is a 7th series that my uncle gave me to fit on the bayonet my dad brought back from Borneo. The rifle sat behind the furnace in my uncle's home for 40 years, and the bayonet was in my dad's tool chest. Anyway, I think it's whatever you want to do as a collector. If you learn stuff (best part of this forum is sharing knowledge) and remain somewhat smart (not always easy) then you will never "lose".

Reply author: Bushido101
Replied on: 02/15/2006 7:32:41 PM
Message:
fingolfen I made a post earlier on this subject, my rifle that I was speaking of is marked like the one in the photo above except it only has one line through it and it is at the edge of the mum.

Reply author: 03man
Replied on: 02/15/2006 8:39:22 PM
Message:
Mike,
that is a "struck" mum, not a canceled one in your picture.

Cancellations, IMHO, were the double circles, the tokyo rings(large or small), occasionally the nagoya proof, the series of circles, etc. applied to the mum by the Japanese before defeat, and for a specific purpose, ie. to indicate transfer of owernship.

Yours is a typical, if there is such a thing, struck mum using a chisel or bayonet blade, and again IMHO is somewhere between an untouched mum, and a ground one in rarity and value.

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 02/15/2006 11:40:54 PM
Message:
Sounds like we need to put together a mum primer - ground, struck, canceled, and intact...

Reply author: akb
Replied on: 02/16/2006 12:17:29 AM
Message:
It's concensus.

You will now, all together, hereafter wear the appelation of "The Committee for the Morphological Description of the Altered Chrysanthemum."

Really, this is just another inching forward toward the understanding and description of the Mum, and the changes that took place to it through time. This is important stuff, and it needs to be worked out, and a descriptive morphology achieved, and broadcast into the wilderness.

I love this board.

Y tu tambien, El Viejo. Your insights, reflections, and anecdotes drive this board more than anyone else out there. Some of you are out for show and tell (that's cool!), some like to snipe about "don't believe anything anyone has told you, let the specimen talk." Well,more often than not, the specimen cannot. You have to speak for it.

We have to make the most objective, and albeit sometimes, the somewhat subjective observations we can offer, and then we drop our entrails on the table, and everyone has their opportunity to have their say about them. In response, some of these observations to them are trite, some are downright scientific, and others just open their collective collection experience, and postulate. Almost none, if any, are mean spirited.

So, like no other forum I've monitored, this one is the NUTS!

And, I wish ol' Earl Battey still wanted to play--that sumbich knew his stuff, and furthermore, was willing to share. I miss him.

So Guys, here is your charge, work out the basic description of the altered / or non-existent, MUM, and El Viejo, don't worry about your postings, and/or frequency. Your presence is like a great bright spark inside of a very dark cave.



Reply author: Jareth
Replied on: 02/16/2006 01:51:43 AM
Message:
What! You miss Earl! We have a new Earl here & his name is Rob (arisakadogs) Rhodes
Next thing you'll be missing the ex moderator/mum collector sevensteps! C'mon these guys are now tuna fishing & selling trailer homes! As for terminology we all speak Japanese rifles on this board & understand each other. We'll never get those sellers on AA or gunbroker to change! There's a FULL mum & then theres 1) cancelled as in overstamp on type 30 -38's 2) ground as in with a grinder 3) and lastly struck/filed as in defaced. Anything less just isn't a Full mum! Next Doss will post his grumble about last ditch vs substitute all over again


Reply author: kroh
Replied on: 02/16/2006 02:01:36 AM
Message:
This should be a "sticky" topic. so it never comes up again.

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 02/16/2006 02:03:55 AM
Message:
makes me want to post stuff about "no series " rifles 500 times just ta cause I can...hahahaha

Reply author: pacific-war44
Replied on: 02/16/2006 02:58:02 AM
Message:
Every time you say "no series" Dave you run the risk of that giant Milwaukee's Best Light can dropping out of the sky to crush you,like in those commercials! I hear Doss sent that idea in to the ad department.....it's not a no series,,it's an 'ought series...heh. Scott

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 02/16/2006 1:34:56 PM
Message:
You got that right - God's gonna get You (or the giant Milwaukee's Best Light can) if: (1) you use "no series" on a Tokyo 38 (2) You call a 38 without a series mark a "Kokura" (3) you use the term "Substitute Standard" for Substitute Type 99 aka "last ditch'. Thank God we are not like the sword people or the wings on the rear sight would be a "jumuiki, the rear sight would be a "Nuenookie," etc. Let's be happy with the 'accepted' (BY ME of course) terms and not create new/erroneous ones.

On the mum question, what about fourcategories: (1) Full (unaltered) (2) Overstamped (Japanese arsenal and other marks done by the Japanese when removed from mil. service (3)"Cancelled" ("X"ed, "=". hammered, etc done by the Japanese before the rifle was handed in for the last time) and (4) ground. You fellows may want to change the names, but these four categories should suffice (though it would be helpful if we knew in what manner a mum was "cancelled."

As far as putting a "Sticky" on this. I find that they are seldom read and/or commented on. Perhaps you could start a "Sticky." reintroduce the topic every six months or so and somehow add the new comments to the 'Sticky.' If it is just to keep the topic from reappearing, you are board with reading it, then why not just skip it?

Reply author: fingolfen
Replied on: 02/16/2006 1:40:57 PM
Message:
Doss - I like those categories...

One comment above got me thinking - as in needing electricity to grind the mum. I'm not sure I agree with that, there are a lot of good files and rasps out there that will grind steel with nothing more than elbow grease...

Reply author: davef
Replied on: 02/16/2006 6:19:04 PM
Message:
not to emntion hand grinders turned with squeezing, japanese ones of those turn up from time to time and a old fashioned tredle grinder will take the mum off just fine to and without over heating (I AM NOT admiitting how I know that for sure but it will)..personal I like the descriptives of untouched/intact, overstamped/cancelled..and FUBAR for all non intact or officially overstamped....wahhahahaha!!!!

Reply author: Bushido101
Replied on: 02/16/2006 6:20:15 PM
Message:
One of mine has what looks like file marks instead of grinder marks.

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 02/16/2006 9:54:51 PM
Message:
Bobby showed me two 99s, same series, few hundred serial numbers apart, that I sold him several years apart. Both had identical mum removal, almost as if a large, round file had been used or a grinder with a round grinding head. More like the grinder as the 'grind' was narrow, deep and bottom semi-round. Suggests these ground same 'morning' by same person using the same "mum removal' method(?)

Why don't you fellows decide on the terminlogy, then we use it and "woe unto those that stray" (large beer can from the sky treatment!)

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 02/16/2006 11:13:40 PM
Message:
Just looked at an auction that said "partial mum". Maybe a lawyer could call it that. It was obliterated & the damage was way over the bounds of the mum. Someone must have hated that mum! I guess you could enjoy this "partial" mum through a loupe!

Doss, I like your terms - Full, over stamped, cancelled and ground. Seems to cover all the ground. Not bad for an olde fart!


Reply author: akb
Replied on: 02/16/2006 11:36:46 PM
Message:
Now that you've settled down, progress is being made, And, imagine, el viejo is making the pronouncements. Things are quiet in the room.
And, yes, I miss Earl.

Reply author: arisakadogs
Replied on: 02/17/2006 12:10:08 AM
Message:


quote: Originally posted by Bushido101


One of mine has what looks like file marks instead of grinder marks.

That may have been done by Doss in the '80s at a gunshow. He was known as "Arisakafats" then & would file mums when people wern't looking.


Reply author: japmilitaria
Replied on: 02/17/2006 01:50:15 AM
Message:
Eloldehombre1

Did you get my email with regards to the rifle I purchased from the vetran who ground the mum off the rifle himself??

Bryan in Blythe

Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 02/17/2006 03:47:25 AM
Message:
No, I didn't> If you sent it to the email address on my"profile" that address is wrong. Last year we changed to [email protected] Would like to hear the story.

This reminds me of a funny(?) story. When I was moving from Pittsburgh to Tuscaloosa in the early 80s I mentioned in B'ZAI (Don Harper was editor then) that I was having to move because I'd been grinding mums of rifles and PA law made it illegal to own a rifle with the original markings defaced. This snowballed in B'ZAI, out of control (I got sick of it!) but later a young collector in the New England area called Jery Price in FL, very concerned, "Did you hear, some ass hole is going around grinding the mums off all the Japanese rifles?"

Reply author: byf45
Replied on: 02/17/2006 2:10:32 PM
Message:
Here's a mum 'decapitation' that seems rather unique. Must have used an ice pick! (If you enlarge the photo, the remains of the mum are visible).
/JB
http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9212&stc=1&d=1191705942

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56.63 KB

Reply author: gwsiii
Replied on: 02/17/2006 2:50:45 PM
Message:
Looks like that one was 'bayoneted'. Wonder which bayonet type it was, hooked or straight crossguard? Trey


Reply author: Herr Mario
Replied on: 02/17/2006 7:16:24 PM
Message:
...neglected to mention the above T99 series 35 matcher was picked out of a surrender pile in Tokyo on Dec.25th,1945 from a sailor on CVE68 Kalinin Bay-just spoke with him again last week...does that help shed any light on who did what/when to mums...???


Reply author: gtbehary
Replied on: 02/17/2006 7:17:05 PM
Message:


I had one just like this a while back.

quote:


Originally posted by byf45


Here's a mum 'decapitation' that seems rather unique. Must have used an ice pick! (If you enlarge the photo, the remains of the mum are visible).

/JB



Download Attachment:

56.63 KB




Reply author: Ronin48
Replied on: 02/17/2006 7:25:11 PM
Message:
Now that screwed up things, mum ground with a file could be either pre or post surrender. Obviously some Japanese units would have files handy for metal working, etc., and no reason to believe that after the surrender some civilians or ex-servicemen were not put to work removing mums with files.

Reply author: japmilitaria
Replied on: 02/17/2006 11:14:47 PM
Message:
Eloldehombre1

Email sent. Please let me know when you receive it.

Busted in Blythe

Reply author: BIG ED
Replied on: 02/18/2006 07:47:26 AM
Message:
I think a "hand filed mum" tends to be flat across the receiver.While a "machine ground mum" tend to follow the outline of the receiver more so.I am sure it was done both ways.But when you look at the volume of rifles that was surrendered and had to be defaced I for one would have wanted a grinder. I even examined one 2 years back a 33rd series that the mum was arc welded over.My thought was maybe this was done aboard a ship on a souvenier rifle. Now thats a whole 'nuther catagorie LOL

 

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Hey fellows :

That was an enjoyable reading of the Mum Story. A book could be made of all the variations of mum grinding / cancelling / surrendering done to these old rifles. Yes there are people who are restoring mums !, you are going to see more of that now that these rifles have increased in popularity and value.
Four mum conditions as offered ( full, ground, cancelled, overstamped ) sounds ok if people can get used to the terminology. The problem is the personal interpretation of a seller / reporter as to what it is. I have battled this for years keeping track of sniper rifles.
Regarless of how folks feel I only have two mum conditions in my charts :
1) MUM , that means a full untouched symbol was it left the arsenal.
2) GROUND , any form of defacement.
It is cold I know cut & dried but it keeps my charts simple.
Vicasoto
 

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Ray, thanks.

I know it takes tremendous amounts of time to restore these pictures.

Thanks again.

Victor,
mum, struck, ground doesn't seem too much to keep track of; would take the same space in your charts. A struck mum is much different to me than a ground one, JMHO.
 

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Hello 03man :
I accept whatever interpretation an owner / reporter gives me and note that on the ID card on each rifle. If I had a data sheet that had the 4 "accepted" variations and the person makes the correct identification I would make the charts be that way. But since all I receive are personal observations that can be 16 ways of looking at it by phone, mail, e-mail, there is no way to cross check unless pictures exist.
Regardless instead of one row for the mum and another for matching I would have to have 4 for just the mum condition. It is only cosmetic or aesthetic as no matter what it is ground is not mummed. Some folks have said that I should use another term besides GROUND. There we go again leaving it up to the interpretation of the viewer.
A) some collectors call damaged mums SURRENDERED, that is correct but some take umbrage to that on rifles that have the mum cancelled / overstamped. Not much of an issue with snipers.
B) a mum that is polished off slightly and OVERSTAMPED with double circles or arsenal marked is now no longer military issue. Not much of an issue with snipers.
C) a filed / chiseled mum, what term do we call this one ? DAMAGED mum I guess.
D) a mum OVERSTAMPED with 3 circles, a square, a pentagon, little circles over the petals, are at times considered removed from service and surplussed out.
E) obliterated mums by punch - ice pick - bayonet tip - peening is another category.
F) the ground off from a slight touch in the middle of the mum to a complete obliteration of the receiver markings anf the forward edge of the dust cover, that is a common one.
So as you see there are dozens of interpretations, no matter how labeled the mum is now "DAMAGED" "CANCELLED" "SURRENDERED" "SURPLUSSED". My challenge to you is to come up with an all inclusive word to replace the "ground" that I use and see if we can convince the crowd to adopt a new mum rating system. I will gladly accept a majority vote on the subject, until then I will continue to classify sniper rifles as MUM and GROUND in my charts.
Vicasoto
 

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Defaced

Seems 'defaced' would cover all except the untouched or full mum.
 

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Hey Don :
I could live with that MUM and DEFACED, still only two rows. Now to get everybody on the same wave length.
Vicasoto
 
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