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jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 11:47:33 PM
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I never pay attention to the stickies because Ive been here for a while and read them a long time ago. I just happened to glance up there and see that Drakejake was the last to post in the Ground Bolt sticky, which kinda made me uncomfortable. For those who dont know, he thought his rifle was perfectly safe with a ground bolt, and out of spec BG because it functioned fine on the outside. I dont like the idea that someone who buys one of these rifles may just come to this forum and read the stickies and never ask a question, and when they read that sticky, they may think that he is right, and that they dont need to do anything to fix their out of spec rifle (if it happens to be out of spec.). What I'm asking for is for some more replies to that thread so that when outsiders come here who may not know about the reasoning for bolt gap and why ground bolts are unsafe, they dont read that thread and leave thinking they are safe when they are possibly not. It just kinda rubbed me the wrong way when I noticed it was there.

Hopefully, we can make it clear to the uninformed audience that with the roller-locking system, some care must be taken to properly tune these rifles. Thanks guys.

Jordan

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!



Drakejake
Gunboards Member



89 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 09:59:42 AM
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Correction: Bolt gap on my rifles is in spec and I think it is important that this be the case. Those who claim that the standard bolt gap spec changes (must be larger) if the bolt head is below spec have not produced any proof or support for that position. They just make the same bare assertions over and over. Readers of this and other gun forums should be warned to check the credentials of those who make sweeping, definitive pronouncements about controversial gun issues. I have no credentials, it is true, but I am taking a negative position, not a positive one. Those who are taking the positive position regarding ground bolts and gun safety have the burden of proof and have not carried it. Their statements about ground bolts and safety are not supported by the gun manuals or by any rational argument thus far presented. So far as I can tell, their contentions have no foundation whatever. Before trashing your rifle or having it rebuilt (repressing the barrel), you should be sure that those who are telling you to do this know what they are talking about. Since we are now going back over well-turned ground, I will now retire from this thread.

Drakejake


jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 11:20:04 AM
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I agree listen to the experts... Somebody somewhere please find me a HK gunsmith who will condone grinding a bolt... Not a century smith, but a neutral source who will condone it. I'll drop a name since you want experts... Bill Springfield. Lets ask him what his opinion is. Id name the ones in my area, but Id be accused of lying Im sure, so it doesnt do much good.

The basic TRUTH is whether a person is an expert or not, if you look at the rifle logically... LOGICALLY, grinding the bolt does nothing to the rifle except create a gap between the bolt and carrier. THAT GAP DOES NOTHING!!!!! THE GAP IS NOT IMPORTANT!!!!! Its what that gap tells you tat is important. the Gap tells you how far the carrier/LP is pushed inside the bolt. If it pushes too far, the gap gets smaller, if it doesnt push far enough, the gap gets larger. grinding the back of the bolt makes the gap bigger, but doesnt change how far the wedge of a LP is inside the bolt. One doesnt need to be an expert to see that grinding the bolt does nothing to change ANYTHING mechanically about the rifle. The REASON for the spec is because the rifle becomes mechanically unstable if its not within that spec. therefor, when putting it back into spec, you have to get the mechanical parts of the rifle back in spec... not some magical gap.

since you wont accept anyone else's "proof", Drakejake, please tell us what grinding the back of the bolt does to change about the rifles mechanics?

If you can't get your rifle back to spec by replacing WORN parts, then the barrel must be repressed. you dont remove material from a worn part to help it out. If you install all new parts and still arent in spec, its because the barrel needs to be repressed into the trunnion... plain and simple. get over the fact that you have a bum rifle, and fix it... these things dont last forever, and they DO wear out. It sucks that you got a worn out rifle from Century and got duped by them into thinking it was ok... but its mechanical, it wears out.

Also, since its now basically considered as FACT that ground bolts are BAD, I believe the burden of proof now belongs to you. If anyone else out there agreed with, I think they would have chimed in by now. The argument about it is YEARS old, and its been settled. ITS BAD!!! FIX IT or sell it!

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




myco4you
Gunboards Member



44 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 2:49:38 PM
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This guy just won't give up.This subject has been raised so many times,and is very simple to understand.If you have no boltgap,your rifle is out of factory designed specs.Grinding the bolthead will make the rifle appear to have an acceptable gap,but does nothing to address the real problem.Your parts are still out of specification.Would you want to be holding a rifle that is containing all that pressure in the breech,with bolt parts that are worn out?
Drakejake is stuck on the fact that since no HK armory tech has come here and publicly stated that his rifle is bad,then it can't be true.This is a big mistake.
Face the facts guy,your rifle needs to be repaired.Century has fooled you into believing the rifle is in spec.It isn't!You stumbled upon the truth yourself when you installed an unground bolt,and your gap went to 0!The reason has been explained to you,but you are refusing to see the light.You are not making any friends here with your attitude about this,and I read over at cetmerifles that you have been told all the facts over and over also.
Bottom line is your rifle is worn.It has been re-engineered by the Century techs incorrectly.It will not fix itself,and could prove to be unsafe if you continue using it.



gw11
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
210 Posts
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 9:02:35 PM
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I would have to say that Drakejake has succeeded at defying logic and also that HK and Cetme specs are shown as under extreme circumstance [as they should be]. I am not a Smith but I do know why we are given dimensions to help us determine proper set up. A .004 to .020 bolt gap is a general reference dimension, given with regard to proper initial set up and with serviceable parts. If someone alters that dimension by altering the part, they are wrong and possibly endangering the next person who unwittingly fires it. It may not blow up this year! But with the multitude of over loaded and inconsistent ammo sold in surplus, it is just cheating death.

Drakejake has a rifle with a ground bolt with a length of 1.816 or [.019 short], that was using +4 rollers to give him a .010 to .011" false gap measurement. When the math is done his ground bolt was operating at a [ minus .013] bolt gap when compared to an unground and proper bolt length of 1.835". But it still functioned perfectly!

After installing a New Bolt at 1.835 dimensional length and all new internals and +4 rollers he found his bolt gap at less than .004" [he thinks]! He said his gap is actually at '0'.
Perhaps some people would see this as a way out of using "safety first" as a guide in proper firearm use. But hopefully most would see it for what it is.
In either case Drakejake has an out of spec rifle! That's a Fact! And his described firearm should be rebarreled!



Can anyone undeniably state that his rifle will blow within the next week or two years? [probably not} I would expect that most Smithy's won't have anything to do with a question like that. Most likely the answer would be questioned further thus going nowhere.

Personally I would not respond to questions that dispute evidence that is undeniable, With all the specs given on Cetme's and HK's on the web, if you find need to argue, solely for your own personal benefit, you should not involve others, nor should you possibly sway other less knowledgeable folks to your way of thinking. I feel the members here have tried and succeeded at giving good advice.

Perhaps if more pertinent info is needed, a person with more aptitude than I could go here [http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm] and figure it all out for themselves!

But that is just my opinion!

gw11


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Edited by - gw11 on 12/02/2006 9:48:11 PM


Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 10:47:18 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by jfowl31

I never pay attention to the stickies because Ive been here for a while and read them a long time ago. I just happened to glance up there and see that Drakejake was the last to post in the Ground Bolt sticky, which kinda made me uncomfortable.

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Actually you were the last to post there.

I locked the thread after your last post where you gave a good explanation.


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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
Along with G3 manual's and now 21 AK and SKS manuals


jfowl31
Gunboards.Com Silver Star Member



USA
713 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:00:54 PM
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Yeah i felt the need to post that in there once I saw he was the last (before me) to post in there... kkep up the good work DOC, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're all appreciative of the work you put in on this forum.

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COA #106121 COG #1000 NRA #148440199

Copenhagen is my anti-drug!




Dr Zero
Moderator



USA
2694 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 11:19:27 PM
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Yall make it happen Im just here to tend the bar

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www.drzero.org/coa
The Original CETME manual's Free for DL at www.drzero.org/cetme
Along with G3 manual's and now 21 AK and SKS manuals


gw11
Gunboards Premium Member



USA
210 Posts
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 6:41:53 PM
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Oooooh , goody !

The ground bolt issue is back !

Drakejake , and any others interested ;

Bolt gap decreases as parts wear out. The rifle will be hard to charge , runs progressively worse as it heats from firing, and your brass will not eject as well as it once did.

When the parts are all good , CETMEs eject brass with psychotic rage , meaning you don`t need to look for the brass , it`s on the other side of the range.

If the brass is on the ground , next to your feet , and the rifle won`t open after a few shots , it`s because something is wrong.

I know this from personal experience.

Your barrel needs to be re-pressed , and be sure you have installed a NEW set of standard sized rollers , so as to get the most service from your now in- spec rifle.

If you have installed new parts , and your boltgap has gone to 0.00 , your trunnion is worn , and the correct fix is to re-press the barrel.

If your boltgap was more than 0.00 , you could have TEMPORARILY fixed it , by installing +2, or +4 size rollers.

Since that`s not the case, re-press the barrel , and have done with it.

Oh , and DO NOT send it back to Century - they will either grind it , or keep it, and send you a check for your distributor`s wholesale cost on a replacement rifle.

Again , I speak from personal experience.

Hope this helps,
cevgunner
 
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